Added Immersion...

[BigCity]

Ideas like this have been floating around in diff forms for a long time, but I thought organizing them into what would make MY experience more immersive might generate some new discussion.

1. Enable automatic evolution of the league... it would be a great advantage to me if the game would have a switch on this option to allow the player (me) to accept or deny what the game was about to do. I play the game season by season usually in commissioner mode and in some leagues, I would like to agree or disagree with the action about to be taken. Another option would be to pose the change to the team owners and let them (and me) vote on it. Maybe in commissioner mode the option could be confirmed by me and in manager mode it would go to a vote.

2. Any change initiated by the game should also be editable by the player... for example; the league will expand by 2 teams in Milwaukee and Los Angeles... give me the option to make that Portland and Seattle if I want. Also let me edit the team nicknames. I know I can do this "after-the-fact" but sometimes the double-change screws up the recorded storyline.

3. I really REALLY want more "meat" at the Winter Meetings !!! All of the above should be initiated and executed at that meeting, and media stories should cover what happens.

4. I think a series of stories should be added.... Right now, certain performances or game outcomes trigger a story. I think storylines should be added for the BA leader, K leader, Win leader, SB leader - etc. to create some ongoing "flow"... Ex. "John Parker leads the CBL with a .368 BA...." and a week later "Parker continues to lead the league with a .355 BA..." and a month later; "1B John Parker holds onto the CBL BA lead, currently batting .333 but Jason Taylor is now chasing him with a .320 BA...". This concept would be similar to the "hitting streak" storylines currently in the game.

5. We still need some kind of story for the all-star game. Even if it's the same story each year with the current games results, it's one game that needs a little attention. The playoff series games should be written up as well, but the AS game would be a nice start.

I know there was a 6th item I wanted to talk about but right now I can't think of it... 5 is probably enough to instigate a few comments anyway

6.

[endgame]

Initial gut reactions bolded.

Originally Posted by BigCity

Ideas like this have been floating around in diff forms for a long time, but I thought organizing them into what would make MY experience more immersive might generate some new discussion.

1. Enable automatic evolution of the league... it would be a great advantage to me if the game would have a switch on this option to allow the player (me) to accept or deny what the game was about to do. I play the game season by season usually in commissioner mode and in some leagues, I would like to agree or disagree with the action about to be taken. Another option would be to pose the change to the team owners and let them (and me) vote on it. Maybe in commissioner mode the option could be confirmed by me and in manager mode it would go to a vote.

Agree in principle. I'd add that maybe the composition of items allowed in league evolution could also be put to a vote, to include items that could not be negotiated later. One one hand, I like the idea of preserving the ability to override anything. On the other, for a truly immersive game, seems to me there should be areas I simply have to with, mandated by 'others' and out of my control.

2. Any change initiated by the game should also be editable by the player... for example; the league will expand by 2 teams in Milwaukee and Los Angeles... give me the option to make that Portland and Seattle if I want. Also let me edit the team nicknames. I know I can do this "after-the-fact" but sometimes the double-change screws up the recorded storyline.

Again, I don't object to the idea I am able to modify proposed changes. However, in an immersive world- unless I have declared myself god above gods -even changing that change should call for a vote and be approved by my 'peers.'

3. I really REALLY want more "meat" at the Winter Meetings !!! All of the above should be initiated and executed at that meeting, and media stories should cover what happens.

A great aspiration of mine, to finally develop real interaction and dialogue with other owners, not unlike signing negotiations, but with more narrative available, and even choices similar to some of today's storylines. A bit off the subject, but would really like to see this eventually in the everyday trade dialogue with GMs and/or owners.

4. I think a series of stories should be added.... Right now, certain performances or game outcomes trigger a story. I think storylines should be added for the BA leader, K leader, Win leader, SB leader - etc. to create some ongoing "flow"... Ex. "John Parker leads the CBL with a .368 BA...." and a week later "Parker continues to lead the league with a .355 BA..." and a month later; "1B John Parker holds onto the CBL BA lead, currently batting .333 but Jason Taylor is now chasing him with a .320 BA...". This concept would be similar to the "hitting streak" storylines currently in the game.

Actually, cody and I have recently discussed this, and hope to be lobbying Andreas to gain access to or find a way to translate the existing tokens in pbp and news for affordable use in storylines. Absolutely essential that storylines allow us the ability to highlight statistics and be statistics-driven. After all, it's baseball. Aren't the stats often the story?

5. We still need some kind of story for the all-star game. Even if it's the same story each year with the current games results, it's one game that needs a little attention. The playoff series games should be written up as well, but the AS game would be a nice start.

Every event needs a story, headline, or at least a one liner that is able to sum up what's happened. Game is sadly lacking in shining the spotlight on what teams strive to achieve. Some progress has been made on the great triumph, winning it all, but even that still has the potential to be anti-climactic. Still, I think we're versions away from the substantive highlights that are called for, but like you've said, you start somewhere.

I know there was a 6th item I wanted to talk about but right now I can't think of it... 5 is probably enough to instigate a few comments anyway

6.

[elfsutton]

I like the idea of having the changes be put to a vote, for those that are playing in commissioner mode, it should be something you institute as said Commissioner, or that makes better sense I think. If your the commissioner, should you not have better control?

Something I would iike to see added to this list, better Association handling. As far as I can tell, you really dont get much coverage of the overall Association if you use that mode. Maybe, on the association page, a review of each leagues standings could be displayed. More prominent news stories about the association.

[BigCity]

1. Enable automatic evolution of the league... it would be a great advantage to me if the game would have a switch on this option to allow the player (me) to accept or deny what the game was about to do. I play the game season by season usually in commissioner mode and in some leagues, I would like to agree or disagree with the action about to be taken. Another option would be to pose the change to the team owners and let them (and me) vote on it. Maybe in commissioner mode the option could be confirmed by me and in manager mode it would go to a vote.

Agree in principle. I'd add that maybe the composition of items allowed in league evolution could also be put to a vote, to include items that could not be negotiated later. One one hand, I like the idea of preserving the ability to override anything. On the other, for a truly immersive game, seems to me there should be areas I simply have to with, mandated by 'others' and out of my control.

Although I agree, here's a sample scenario I sometimes find myself in...

Great Lakes Baseball Organization, started in 1901, consists of 8 teams located around the Great Lakes. Turn league evolution on, lets say in 1933 league expands by two teams; where? Los Angeles and New York! Not fitting with my intentions so I would like to change the new teams to Toronto and Green Bay.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by BigCity

[/B]Although I agree, here's a sample scenario I sometimes find myself in...

Great Lakes Baseball Organization, started in 1901, consists of 8 teams located around the Great Lakes. Turn league evolution on, lets say in 1933 league expands by two teams; where? Los Angeles and New York! Not fitting with my intentions so I would like to change the new teams to Toronto and Green Bay.

I wouldn't have any problem with a proviso that limited the radius of said changes in a given league. In fact, in a perfect world, you would have such a limiter available to you in the evolution. Lacking that, I fully understand your quandry and agree. Though I'd be tempted to take it out of my arbitrary hands and create a candidate list on notice and by some random means, perhaps, let the owners group, including myself, make the final decision. In the end, it's your game, your world.

[goalieump413]

I know the geographical considerations coming at you randomly would be a nice touch, but don't forget about ownership changes. Not just in historical leagues, scattered around the US, but in modern times too.

I like the direction you're taking this. Often, practical random events can occur to players, but what about an entire team?

It was eye opening to watch Ken Burn's Baseball, and note the number of teams in the early 20th century that got uprooted and moved, or had ownership difficulties and were forced to move somewhere that baseball could work.

Good stuff...

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BigCity

1. Enable automatic evolution of the league... it would be a great advantage to me if the game would have a switch on this option to allow the player (me) to accept or deny what the game was about to do ...

As has been remarked, having this ability somewhat negates the purpose of league evolution, which is for the history to unfold without the user's prompting.

Originally Posted by BigCity

2. Any change initiated by the game should also be editable by the player...

Same comment as above.

Originally Posted by BigCity

3. I really REALLY want more "meat" at the Winter Meetings !!! All of the above should be initiated and executed at that meeting, and media stories should cover what happens.

To tie this in with your #1 and #2 points, I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again: interactive winter meetings where proposed changes come up for a vote and then the team owners vote whether to approve the change or not. In other words, pretty much like how it works in real life. The user casts their vote on behalf of their team. There'd also be news stories prior to the meetings outlining the various proposals and the estimated level of support, and then news stories after the vote(s) detailing the changes that were passed.

More generally, the changes that can arise from league evolution need to be given more intrinsic rationales for occurring. At present the changes seem largely random and not driven by circumstances within the league. Some are arbitrarily minor, i.e. changing the DL from 15 days to 13. In real life changes were in response to conditions, i.e. the Depression caused clubs to cut the active roster from 25 to 23 in order to save money. If the changes could be made to be more sensible to what's going on in the league and then combined with interactive winter meetings, this feature could really boost immersion a lot.

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

As has been remarked, having this ability somewhat negates the purpose of league evolution, which is for the history to unfold without the user's prompting.

Same comment as above.

To tie this in with your #1 and #2 points, I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again: interactive winter meetings where proposed changes come up for a vote and then the team owners vote whether to approve the change or not. In other words, pretty much like how it works in real life. The user casts their vote on behalf of their team. There'd also be news stories prior to the meetings outlining the various proposals and the estimated level of support, and then news stories after the vote(s) detailing the changes that were passed.

More generally, the changes that can arise from league evolution need to be given more intrinsic rationales for occurring. At present the changes seem largely random and not driven by circumstances within the league. Some are arbitrarily minor, i.e. changing the DL from 15 days to 13. In real life changes were in response to conditions, i.e. the Depression caused clubs to cut the active roster from 25 to 23 in order to save money. If the changes could be made to be more sensible to what's going on in the league and then combined with interactive winter meetings, this feature could really boost immersion a lot.

I see where your coming from, but a total lack of decision when playing in Commissioner mode just doesn't fit the concept of the game's flexibility. If, as you mentioned, the changes actually made logical sense rather than being random, I could better live with the idea. For example....

1. a team moves because its financial condition is questionable... and moves should go to one of the cities next in line size-wise and one that is true to the geographical makeup of the league/division.

2. changes like designated hitters and the end of the reserve clause should be timed with the mid-20th century. when they happen in 1925 I can only shake my head...

3. The addition of the all-star game (and even the world series?) should be logically chosen/added some years after the formation of the league if not started as part of the setup.

As you suggest, there has to be some "logic" behind the evolution, and stories to back it up. Because of the current randomness of these decisions, I usually turn evolution off since I don't want to see something change that doesn't make sense to me.

[Bluenoser]

League Evolution - this is what I've been asking for:

Two Options:

A. Current Option, where it's completely random and controlled by game.

B. Commish Option - Events are controlled by Commish, in that he decides when and how they are activated.

[BigCity]

In keeping with the above... (and this is my first try at expressing something that popped into my head)...

One of the facts we know about writing stories is = it's tough. It takes a lot of samples, a decent writing capabilities, a lot of time, and a lot of coding. Because of this, stories continue to be approved and added - but at a snails pace.

What if.... a "kind" of story was added to OOTP that was less narrative and more "bullet list" in its initial form. A title followed by some facts that centered on the issue at hand. Example...

Colombus Comets front office reports $1.2 million dollar loss

* possible lines following above headline...
....1.... Rumors that management is considering move to Richmond
....2.... Reports that owner is considering sale of club
....3.... Will MVP Clark be traded to Chicago?
....4.... Comets slash international scouting budget

In this way, a number of "stories" uncovering the inner details of teams and the league can be added to OOTP without the amount of work to write narratives. The outline of these possibilities could be created, an "if then else" routine could be written to assemble them, and they could be presented in parrallel with the narrative stories initially - eventually being expanded into full articles.

Remember, this is an initial idea - haven't thought out all the pros and cons, but maybe an idea worth discussing.

[elfsutton]

I like that BigCity, sounds very interesting

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BigCity

I see where your coming from, but a total lack of decision when playing in Commissioner mode just doesn't fit the concept of the game's flexibility.

I can see that, but on the other hand, arguably if you're in commissioner mode you are intending from the start to control every aspect and thus league evolution is redundant. As the father of the league evolution idea (inspired by another game it should be said), it was intended for those who just wanted the story to unfold without any prompting on their part.

I can see your point that perhaps there is a place in between completely hands-off and totally hands on.

Originally Posted by BigCity

1. a team moves because its financial condition is questionable... and moves should go to one of the cities next in line size-wise and one that is true to the geographical makeup of the league/division.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by BigCity

2. changes like designated hitters and the end of the reserve clause should be timed with the mid-20th century. when they happen in 1925 I can only shake my head...

Disagree.

If you look at baseball history, you'll find that some of the changes almost happened, or could have happened, much earlier than they did. The idea of a DH, for example, goes back a very long way. Connie Mack had suggested in 1906 (he was not the first though). In the 1920s the NL proposed adding the DH several times but the AL rejected the idea. Players challenged the reserve clause several times but lost their cases; had thosee decisions been different, or had the players unionized more effectively and strongly earlier, free agency could have easily have been around sooner than it was historically.

There are two paths here: one which follows (roughly) the historical timeline and one which is more wide open. Perhaps that ought to be a selection unto itself as to how free-wheeling the changes raised by league evolution will be...

Originally Posted by BigCity

3. The addition of the all-star game (and even the world series?) should be logically chosen/added some years after the formation of the league if not started as part of the setup.

Depends on when the league starts, it seems to me. Also, see last paragraph above.

[DanP68]

I would really like to see news stories start to focus on a pursuit of a major season or career record, for instance the most HR's in a season or the lowest ERA by a starter.

It would add to the immersion factor, to "keep the flow going" as the OP mentioned. And it would call to your attention a record chase you might not have noticed (like a new stolen bases record or something).

[DanP68]

Originally Posted by BigCity

What if.... a "kind" of story was added to OOTP that was less narrative and more "bullet list" in its initial form. A title followed by some facts that centered on the issue at hand. Example...

Colombus Comets front office reports $1.2 million dollar loss

* possible lines following above headline...
....1.... Rumors that management is considering move to Richmond
....2.... Reports that owner is considering sale of club

The first two bullet points are integral to the story telling process in OOTP. In the current game, if a move it happens, it is sudden and shocking. One day they are in Minneapolis, the next morning the team is in LA.

It needs to begin as a rumor, probably months in advance. This rumor, if it gains strength, should result in a negative fan reaction and possible lost interest in the team. Then the move finally happens, and we begin again.

Of course not all rumors need turn out to be true. But all should be based in logic. If a team is located in NY and selling out every game with a great financial position, they shouldn't be a candidate to move nor a rumor that they will move. But if the team is in a market which isn't supporting them, they become a candidate for a rumor and possibly a move.

[sflcat61]

A few random thoughts for deeper immersion:

As an owner, I would like to see more interaction with your city. Negotiating local media contracts, vendor contracts, lease agreements, taxes, etc.

Minor league affiliations change over time. It would be interesting to include these negotiations during the off-season, so it's not a lot of dead-space between seasons. Also liked what I saw about the Winter Meetings and interactions with the other owners.

If you want to build a new stadium, I would like to see storylines detailing how willing your city is to assist with the project. If cities are unwilling to pony up, it would be great to entertain offers from other cities seeking a MLB franchise. Input on the design of your new 'dream' stadium would be nice too.

I'd like an option to be able to try and talk players who just retired to come back for 'one more run for glory!' That would be a nice storyline.

Interactions with players. How well a player likes or dislikes you could become a factor on whether he resigns with your club or takes a "lesser" offer someplace else.

I would also like to be able to build and maintain a network of contacts ... maybe you could keep up with your star player from Puerto Rico after he retires and goes back home. Maybe he could give you a heads up on up-and-comers in the old home-town.

That is all for now.