In need OF baseball wisdom

Fritz · 02-21-2002, 05:06 AM

Player1's stats:

Category AVG HR RBI AB H 2B 3B R SB CS BB K OBP SLG
Overall .583 3 19 24 14 2 0 7 0 0 1 0 .607 1.042
vs RHP .588 3 15 17 10 1 0 6 0 0 0 0 .556 1.176
vs LHP .571 0 4 7 4 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 .500 .714

1) How can you have an OBP that's lower than your BA, as Cross does in the both the RHP and LHP splits?

2) How can you take a .556 OBP against RHP, and .500 OBP against LHP, and end up with a .607 OBP overall? Do we have pitchers using secret third arms that don't show up in the stats?

Specs · 02-21-2002, 05:07 AM

<pre>
Category AVG HR RBI AB H 2B 3B R SB CS BB K OBP SLG
Overall .583 3 19 24 14 2 0 7 0 0 1 0 .607 1.042
vs RHP .588 3 15 17 10 1 0 6 0 0 0 0 .556 1.176
vs LHP .571 0 4 7 4 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 .500 .714
</pre>

Sorrt I couldn't read it...

Specs · 02-21-2002, 05:07 AM

Looks like the stats are just calculated wrong. I'm sure it happens.

Scott Vibert · 02-21-2002, 05:10 AM

1) A large number of Sacrifices and Sacrifice Flies would add Plate Appearences with out adding times on bases, accounting for the lower OBP.

2) I believe the amount of stats used by OOTP for each calculation is different.

I don't believe the game stores all of these stats for the vs. Righty and vs. Lefty splits (this would be due to database size considerations) as a result you get the different (lower) values because not every time that the batter reached base was saved for the righty/lefty splits.

Hope this helps

Edit - fixed some errors on my part.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: ScottVib ]

Specs · 02-21-2002, 05:15 AM

Scott while your hypotheses are quite logical, wouldn't lower OBP's for L&R individually mean that the extra plate appearances would be tracked for L&R but not totally?

Lucas718 · 02-21-2002, 05:31 AM

It is possible for a player to have a OBP that is lower than his BA.

To calculate batting average: Hits/AB
To calculate OBP: (Hits+Walks+HitByPitch)/(AtBats+Walks+SacFlies+HitByPitch)

To make things easy, lets say a guy has 10 at bats, and gets 4 hits and 1 sacrifice.

BA: 4/10 = .400
OBP: (4+0+0)/(10+0+1+0) = 4/11 = .364

Malificent · 02-21-2002, 05:39 AM

I actually calculated it out for this player, and the game is calculating OBP correctly for the L/R splits once you factor in SFs and SHs using the following formula (excluding CIs and RoE because there were none):

(H+BB)/(AB+BB+SF+SH)

BUT...

It is calculating SFs and SHs as hits for calculating total OBP. To get a .607 OBP in this situation, you need to get 17/28, which coincidentally equals the player's:

(H+BB+SF+SH)/(AB+BB+SF+SH)

There were no CIs or reaching on errors in the stats either. So the game must be counting the sacrifice hits as actual hits for the total OBP. Not a big error in the overall scheme of things, but one that could be easily fixed, you would think.

Mali

TRO · 02-21-2002, 05:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Blind Jerry:
Looks like the stats are just calculated wrong. I'm sure it happens.<hr></blockquote>

I would hope it wouldn't "happen" in a game that is basically just a Fancy-Ass Calculator (c), though it is a nice Fancy-Ass Calculator (c).

Scott Vibert · 02-21-2002, 05:47 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Blind Jerry:
Scott while your hypotheses are quite logical, wouldn't lower OBP's for L&R individually mean that the extra plate appearances would be tracked for L&R but not totally?<hr></blockquote>

Not necessarily.... The game would track some of the extra PA using the Sacrifices and Sac Hits... however in the total it would have the extra times reaching base such as RE (which already counted as a Plate Appearence, just not as reaching base (Reaching on an Error counts as an At Bat)). Adding some 0/1's isn't quite as good as adding some 1/1's (which is what happens with Sacrifices and CIs, respectively).

JML · 02-21-2002, 07:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TRO:


Fancy-Ass Calculator (c).<hr></blockquote>

Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: JML ]

Fritz · 02-21-2002, 07:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JML:
[QB]

Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI?

<hr></blockquote>
Front Office Fake Sports Associates

Fritz · 02-21-2002, 07:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JML:
[QB]

Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI?

<hr></blockquote>
Front Office Fake Sports Associates

JML · 02-21-2002, 07:46 AM

ahhh, FOFSA. Dang FOFSA's buyin up everything! Why don't we just sell 'em the gall-danged Bill of RIGHTS!?!

(not actually

, it was really a goofy, sarcastic

) (

)

Fritz · 02-21-2002, 07:53 AM

FOFSA hold the rights to the document(s) formerly known as the bill of rights. Aquisition of these documents and the recipe for Stuart's Root Beer were purchased in a stock swap a year ago.

FOFSA plans to sell the documents in electronic form under the name SoftRights (c) and will have a free download version known as SoftRights Lite.

The BoD just likes rootbeer.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Fritz ]

andy m · 02-21-2002, 01:34 PM

mmm, beer with roots in it.

no2ss · 02-21-2002, 03:07 PM

2) How can you take a .556 OBP against RHP, and .500 OBP against LHP, and end up with a .607 OBP overall? Do we have pitchers using secret third arms that don't show up in the stats?

Sounds like it's probably a case of Simpson's Paradox, which is a pretty well known statistical "trick" that makes two separate sets of data seem confusing when they're combined.

<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=simpson%27s+paradox">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=simpson%27s+paradox</a> for more info.

Aussie Mark · 02-21-2002, 06:27 PM

[quote]Originally posted by andy m:
mmm, beer with roots in it.<hr></blockquote>

Andy, should we explain the "root" joke for the Americans?

andy m · 02-21-2002, 11:25 PM

heheh, i'll leave that up to you

Fritz · 02-22-2002, 03:18 AM

please do!

please
please
please

Subby · 02-22-2002, 03:34 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JML:


Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: JML ]<hr></blockquote>

I'm a huge fan of the F.A.C.(tm). My wife and I used it to do our taxes this year. Can you say REFUND!?

German Ingenuity: It's FAN-tastic!

02-21-2002, 05:06 AM	#1
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	In need OF baseball wisdom Player1's stats: Category AVG HR RBI AB H 2B 3B R SB CS BB K OBP SLG Overall .583 3 19 24 14 2 0 7 0 0 1 0 .607 1.042 vs RHP .588 3 15 17 10 1 0 6 0 0 0 0 .556 1.176 vs LHP .571 0 4 7 4 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 .500 .714 1) How can you have an OBP that's lower than your BA, as Cross does in the both the RHP and LHP splits? 2) How can you take a .556 OBP against RHP, and .500 OBP against LHP, and end up with a .607 OBP overall? Do we have pitchers using secret third arms that don't show up in the stats?

02-21-2002, 05:10 AM	#4
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,266	1) A large number of Sacrifices and Sacrifice Flies would add Plate Appearences with out adding times on bases, accounting for the lower OBP. 2) I believe the amount of stats used by OOTP for each calculation is different. I don't believe the game stores all of these stats for the vs. Righty and vs. Lefty splits (this would be due to database size considerations) as a result you get the different (lower) values because not every time that the batter reached base was saved for the righty/lefty splits. Hope this helps Edit - fixed some errors on my part. [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: ScottVib ]</p>

02-21-2002, 05:46 AM	#8
TRO Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 84	[quote]Originally posted by Blind Jerry: <strong>Looks like the stats are just calculated wrong. I'm sure it happens.</strong><hr></blockquote> I would hope it wouldn't "happen" in a game that is basically just a Fancy-Ass Calculator (c), though it is a nice Fancy-Ass Calculator (c). __________________ FOBL Montana Monarchs

02-21-2002, 05:47 AM	#9
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,266	[quote]Originally posted by Blind Jerry: <strong>Scott while your hypotheses are quite logical, wouldn't lower OBP's for L&R individually mean that the extra plate appearances would be tracked for L&R but not totally?</strong><hr></blockquote> Not necessarily.... The game would track some of the extra PA using the Sacrifices and Sac Hits... however in the total it would have the extra times reaching base such as RE (which already counted as a Plate Appearence, just not as reaching base (Reaching on an Error counts as an At Bat)). Adding some 0/1's isn't quite as good as adding some 1/1's (which is what happens with Sacrifices and CIs, respectively).

02-21-2002, 07:27 AM	#10
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	[quote]Originally posted by TRO: <strong> Fancy-Ass Calculator (c).</strong><hr></blockquote> Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI? [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: JML ]</p>

02-21-2002, 05:31 AM	#6
Lucas718 Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 402	It is possible for a player to have a OBP that is lower than his BA. To calculate batting average: Hits/AB To calculate OBP: (Hits+Walks+HitByPitch)/(AtBats+Walks+SacFlies+HitByPitch) To make things easy, lets say a guy has 10 at bats, and gets 4 hits and 1 sacrifice. BA: 4/10 = .400 OBP: (4+0+0)/(10+0+1+0) = 4/11 = .364

02-21-2002, 05:39 AM	#7
Malificent Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 15	I actually calculated it out for this player, and the game is calculating OBP correctly for the L/R splits once you factor in SFs and SHs using the following formula (excluding CIs and RoE because there were none): (H+BB)/(AB+BB+SF+SH) BUT... It is calculating SFs and SHs as hits for calculating total OBP. To get a .607 OBP in this situation, you need to get 17/28, which coincidentally equals the player's: (H+BB+SF+SH)/(AB+BB+SF+SH) There were no CIs or reaching on errors in the stats either. So the game must be counting the sacrifice hits as actual hits for the total OBP. Not a big error in the overall scheme of things, but one that could be easily fixed, you would think. Mali

02-21-2002, 07:39 AM	#11
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	[quote]Originally posted by JML: [QB] Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI? <hr></blockquote> Front Office Fake Sports Associates

02-21-2002, 07:44 AM	#12
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	[quote]Originally posted by JML: [QB] Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI? <hr></blockquote> Front Office Fake Sports Associates

02-21-2002, 07:46 AM	#13
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	ahhh, FOFSA. Dang FOFSA's buyin up everything! Why don't we just sell 'em the gall-danged Bill of RIGHTS!?! (not actually , it was really a goofy, sarcastic ) ( )

02-21-2002, 07:53 AM	#14
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	FOFSA hold the rights to the document(s) formerly known as the bill of rights. Aquisition of these documents and the recipe for Stuart's Root Beer were purchased in a stock swap a year ago. FOFSA plans to sell the documents in electronic form under the name SoftRights (c) and will have a free download version known as SoftRights Lite. The BoD just likes rootbeer. [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Fritz ]</p>

02-21-2002, 01:34 PM	#15
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	mmm, beer with roots in it. __________________

02-21-2002, 03:07 PM	#16
no2ss Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 22	2) How can you take a .556 OBP against RHP, and .500 OBP against LHP, and end up with a .607 OBP overall? Do we have pitchers using secret third arms that don't show up in the stats? Sounds like it's probably a case of Simpson's Paradox, which is a pretty well known statistical "trick" that makes two separate sets of data seem confusing when they're combined. <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=simpson%27s+paradox">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=simpson%27s+paradox</a> for more info.

02-21-2002, 06:27 PM	#17
Aussie Mark Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Downunder Posts: 489	[quote]Originally posted by andy m: <strong>mmm, beer with roots in it.</strong><hr></blockquote> Andy, should we explain the "root" joke for the Americans? __________________ Cheers Mark

02-21-2002, 11:25 PM	#18
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	heheh, i'll leave that up to you __________________

02-22-2002, 03:18 AM	#19
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	please do! please please please

02-22-2002, 03:34 AM	#20
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	[quote]Originally posted by JML: <strong> Who owns the rights to that? Fancy-Ass Electronics of Freakinsweet, MI? [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: JML ]</strong><hr></blockquote> I'm a huge fan of the F.A.C.(tm). My wife and I used it to do our taxes this year. Can you say REFUND!? German Ingenuity: It's FAN-tastic!