Catcher ability in OOTP 13

[Markus Heinsohn]

Hey guys,

recent research (i.e. here: Baseball Prospectus | Spinning Yarn: Removing the Mask Encore Presentation )has shown that catchers 'framing' has a much bigger impact on wether a pitch is called a ball or a strike than previously believed. The impact is pretty massive, with the best catcher at framing (Jose Molina) saving more than 30 runs over a full season, which equals about 3 wins per year. The worst catchers (i.e. Ryan Doumit) cost their teams more than 2 wins per year!

Anyway, this is now properly modeled in OOTP 13. The game uses the "catcher ability" rating to determine framing skills and adjusts the number of simulated balls / strikes / BBs / Ks accordingly. Also, the 2012 major league roster set has catchers rated properly as well. And the player evaluation AI understands this now, too.

Just one of the many little things that make OOTP 13 the best version we've ever produced.

Cheers,
Markus

PS: Thanks to Bulldog55 of the beta team for pointing this out and suggesting the change.

[OutS|der]

this sounds great. i always thought catchers had some impact on the pitchers thanks for adding that in

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I hope that the effect in OOTP is not overblown. I've only skimmed the study you linked to, but I'm less than comfortable with making such a change based on 4 seasons of data. As pointed out in the article, statistical analysis of catchers' defensive contributions is always problematic because the same catchers tend to catch the same pitchers, a problem that is magnified over small sample sizes.

That said, I appreciate the attention to details like this.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

I hope that the effect in OOTP is not overblown. I've only skimmed the study you linked to, but I'm less than comfortable with making such a change based on 4 seasons of data. As pointed out in the article, statistical analysis of catchers' defensive contributions is always problematic because the same catchers tend to catch the same pitchers, a problem that is magnified over small sample sizes.

That said, I appreciate the attention to details like this.

There has been more research done, all with the same results. So, I am pretty comfortable with using the data for OOTP.

[Lafayette53]

Having read the studies in question previously I was wondering if you'd incorporate it. Cool.

How large an effect on game play do you expect it will have? About the amount of wins difference the studies cite it as having?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

Having read the studies in question previously I was wondering if you'd incorporate it. Cool.

How large an effect on game play do you expect it will have? About the amount of wins difference the studies cite it as having?

I use the change in K% and BB% stated in the various studies, so the difference in wins / runs will be the same.

[oman19]

As a former catcher this has change really has me pumped up. A good catcher has a huge impact on a game with the way he calls it and the ability to frame pitches. Although as far as calling it bad catchers have less of an impact because if they're bad at it the manager will just call the game from the dugout.

I've always wanted catchers that are good with staffs and bad with staffs reflected in the game. Soooooooooooo glad I pre-ordered now.

[BusterKing]

Will OOTP13 apply this when we import our league from OOTP12 or do we need to start a new league with the OOTP13 MLB roster?

[statfreak]

Is this an option that can be toggled off?

[luger]

Fascinating stuff. I continue to be amazed at the steps forward that this version is taking.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by statfreak

Is this an option that can be toggled off?

I could be wrong, but the way he said it makes me guess no.

[JWay]

Originally Posted by statfreak

Is this an option that can be toggled off?

Why would you want to?

Have you played baseball before? Watch the catchers who frame pitches well. They get calls every time.

Go watch some Kenji Johjima tape. Mariners pitchers got robbed all day long when he lunged at pitches in the zone.

Its a real difference.

[McMousey]

Everytime I turn around there's a new minor tweak to this game that makes me smile

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Will OOTP13 apply this when we import our league from OOTP12 or do we need to start a new league with the OOTP13 MLB roster?

that's a good question. i would assume it would apply when you import but it depends on how it's implemented. He does mention it's based off of catcher ability with that in mind it should work fine for old leagues

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The impact is pretty massive, with the best catcher at framing (Jose Molina) saving more than 30 runs over a full season, which equals about 3 wins per year. The worst catchers (i.e. Ryan Doumit) cost their teams more than 2 wins per year!

I take this on faith. If John Dewan says this, I scoff. However, if Markus believes it, so do I!

My question is, is there anyplace where we will see this framing ability quantified or is it contained only within the overall catching ability rating?

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by JWay

Why would you want to?

Have you played baseball before? Watch the catchers who frame pitches well. They get calls every time.

Go watch some Kenji Johjima tape. Mariners pitchers got robbed all day long when he lunged at pitches in the zone.

Its a real difference.

It is a simple question. Your response seems particularly odd considering I did not question the studies or whether the effect exists in the real world. I was primarily a pitcher when I played baseball. Again, not questioning the studies or real world effects.

Markus does a great job, but things don't always work as expected or desired. It sounds like this has a big effect on the game engine and it would be nice to have control of things like this so the game can be played the way one chooses to. Maybe I don't agree with how much of an effect Markus has coded, why can't I have the option to simply turn it off (or lower the effect, if that option was possible)?

I know giving the users option upon option can be a nightmare for the programmer, but if it can be done so the game can be everything to everyone, I don't see what the problem is with that.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Will OOTP13 apply this when we import our league from OOTP12?

Yes. Like said, the "catcher ability" rating is now used for determining the framing skill, and that rating was part of OOTP 12 as well.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by statfreak

It is a simple question. Your response seems particularly odd considering I did not question the studies or whether the effect exists in the real world. I was primarily a pitcher when I played baseball. Again, not questioning the studies or real world effects.

Markus does a great job, but things don't always work as expected or desired. It sounds like this has a big effect on the game engine and it would be nice to have control of things like this so the game can be played the way one chooses to. Maybe I don't agree with how much of an effect Markus has coded, why can't I have the option to simply turn it off (or lower the effect, if that option was possible)?

I know giving the users option upon option can be a nightmare for the programmer, but if it can be done so the game can be everything to everyone, I don't see what the problem is with that.

I get your point. But, this will not be optional, at least not in the release version. Maybe I'll add a parameter to the engine.cfg file later so this can be toggled.

[landru]

This sounds great! I'm as all Moneyball centric as any one (i.e. throw out the "this is the way we've always done it" and build teams around what actually affects runs) but I've always thought that there are intangibles that the old f@rts had a clue about - and catcher ability seemed like one of them. And now Moneyball gee-whizness is backing them up!

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I get your point. But, this will not be optional, at least not in the release version. Maybe I'll add a parameter to the engine.cfg file later so this can be toggled.

Thank you. I agree it is a great feature to add and one of the reasons OOTP continues to get better with every version.

Adding the parameter to the engine.cfg would be very much appreciated. Thank you for considering it.