Station to Station Baserunning

Shucker · 09-08-2010, 04:00 PM

Is anybody noticing a decided reduction in the number of extra bases taken by baserunners? Of course I have no stats to back this up and just started noticing that nearly always, not always a runner will be limited to one base.

For instance, as I have noticed, scoring position a good amount of the time now is 3rd base not 2nd. For instance, a real situation from last night. I have a guy with 9 speed (out of 10) on 2nd in a close game with 2 outs. Right handed batter comes up and rips (I don't recall the exact pbp language but it was essentially this) one down the right field line. Speedy runner is held at 3rd. Surprised me a lot.

OK, here is something that occurs to me as I write but don't have the details. Maybe RF has a gun, but with speed on 2nd with 2 outs and the fact that it was down the line makes me think he would have had to travel some distance to get to the ball, I really feel like that guy should have scored.

I am not complaining, just wondering if anyone else is seeing this. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong and that it is a figment of my imagination.

CalvinHobbes · 09-08-2010, 04:17 PM

I'm often frustrated with runners not scoring from second with 2 out and any ball hit to the OF. With two outs the runner will be going full bore on contact to try and score that run. It should be rare that the player is held, but it seems to be the opposite. Of course I, too, do not have any statistics to back me up.

TribeFanInNC · 09-08-2010, 05:14 PM

Have you adjusted your strategy slider for baserunning? By default (i.e. the slider in the middle), the game is a little more cautious than you would see by today's standards. But remember, OOTP caters to a lot of eras, so it has to be somewhere in the middle.

In general, I've been able to adjust my slider to get the aggresiveness I want on the basepaths. But I haven't played a season with the '85 Cardinals either. And with specific runners, I'll use the player strategy slider to make the Kenny Lofton-esque players very aggressive.

Hope this helps. Maybe you have already been down this road.

RchW · 09-08-2010, 05:24 PM

Unless we're talking about a different game I find that v11 is much improved due to the return of the pop up choice box. In a recent WS game I had the choice box 4 times in one inning. On two of them I went for it and on two I held up.

That's just one anecdote. My equally unscientific impression is that things seem just right.

Technical note; if either of you feel the need to improve this feature edit the engine.cfg file (see below) and you can get the success rate and frequency you want.

Quote:

# Game Engine configuration file
# Editing is simple: When you want an event to occur more often, raise the number of the event.
# Default is 100.
# Example: If you want the double-play frequency to be increased by 20%, enter 120 instead of 100 under GAME_DOUBLE_PLAY_FREQUENCY
# Copyright (c) 2009, OOTP Developments GmbH & Co. KG

GAME_GROUNDBALL_FLYBALL_FACTOR
100
GAME_DEFENSE_INFLUENCE
100
GAME_FIELDING_ERROR_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_THROWING_ERROR_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_DOUBLE_PLAY_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_TRIPLE_PLAY_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_LINE_DOUBLE_PLAY_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_TAGUP_FIRST_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_TAGUP_FIRST_SUCCESS
100
GAME_TAGUP_SECOND_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_TAGUP_SECOND_SUCCESS
100
GAME_TAGUP_THIRD_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_TAGUP_THIRD_SUCCESS
100
GAME_EXTRA_BASE_FROM_SECOND_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_EXTRA_BASE_FROM_SECOND_SUCCESS
100
GAME_EXTRA_BASE_FROM_THIRD_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_EXTRA_BASE_FROM_THIRD_SUCCESS
100
GAME_STEALING_SUCCESS
100
GAME_BUNTING_SUCCESS
100
GAME_BUNT_FOR_HIT_SUCCESS
100
GAME_HIT_RUN_SUCCESS
100
GAME_WILD_PITCH_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_PASSED_BALL_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_BALK_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_PICKOFF_FREQUENCY
100
GAME_PICKOFF_SUCCESS
100

RchW · 09-08-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Have you adjusted your strategy slider for baserunning? By default (i.e. the slider in the middle), the game is a little more cautious than you would see by today's standards. But remember, OOTP caters to a lot of eras, so it has to be somewhere in the middle.

In general, I've been able to adjust my slider to get the aggresiveness I want on the basepaths. But I haven't played a season with the '85 Cardinals either. And with specific runners, I'll use the player strategy slider to make the Kenny Lofton-esque players very aggressive.

Hope this helps. Maybe you have already been down this road.

Good point. I always take my good baserunners and override the team strategy settings to be more aggressive. Actually it is a good idea to do the opposite for your poor runners or you risk running into some dubious outs. Can't believe I missed that.

Shucker · 09-08-2010, 06:25 PM

Good point Tribe, but no I haven't messed with any of the sliders. I never have actually. I suppose that would be a good way of dealing with it.

My point was that I haven't changed anything, but I seem to notice it more now than ever. Is it possible something changed in the latest patch? I don't know.

You have given me a solution to explore if it becomes too troubling, but again, I am only speaking subjectively. I do think I will be watching closer though.

TribeFanInNC · 09-08-2010, 06:51 PM

Yeah, baserunning is one of the few things that everybody has to adjust because there isn't really another way to deal with it. A lot of the sliders are for online only play or don't really matter much in the grand scheme of things. The baserunning slider applies to everyone.

GEP · 09-08-2010, 10:44 PM

I've played out all my games since I started playing back with OOTP 8 and I haven't noticed any change in guys taking extra bases. I haven't been looking for it, either, and I certainly don't have any comparative statistics between versions. But nothing's jumped out at me.

BusterKing · 09-09-2010, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Good point. I always take my good baserunners and override the team strategy settings to be more aggressive. Actually it is a good idea to do the opposite for your poor runners or you risk running into some dubious outs. Can't believe I missed that.

That's the type of settings that I don't like to improve just for my team. I feel that anything like that gives me an unfair advantage over the other AI teams.

I like a fair playing field so I play one pitch mode with everything AI except player substitutions during my games.

JackRules1 · 09-09-2010, 03:39 PM

Somewhat related, I have noticed that my players never score from 1st on a double. I'm not sure what the rate should be, but certainly with 2 outs there should occasionally be a run scored in that situation. I haven't messed with the sliders in OOTP11 but will probably take a look at doing so.

Shucker · 09-09-2010, 04:11 PM

Jack, that is the sort of thing I am noticing. I got a game in last night and had that exact situation. Honestly, it is happening on both sides, so I don't feel like I am being treated unfairly, it just seems like some of these guys should be advancing and scoring more than they are. I guess I should start taking notes when it happens.

I didn't notice it before, so I don't know if something has changed systematically or what. I also don't think it is a v11 vs. v10 issue either, since this seems so new to me and I have been playing v11 for a while now.

And thanks Buster, that is exactly how I feel but wasn't sure quite how to say it.

RchW · 09-09-2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

That's the type of settings that I don't like to improve just for my team. I feel that anything like that gives me an unfair advantage over the other AI teams.

I like a fair playing field so I play one pitch mode with everything AI except player substitutions during my games.

LOL, considering how the AI teams run wild on me when I play out games, there's no thought in my mind that I'm taking advantage. YMMV

Mitch McQuick · 09-09-2010, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Unless we're talking about a different game I find that v11 is much improved due to the return of the pop up choice box. In a recent WS game I had the choice box 4 times in one inning. On two of them I went for it and on two I held up.

That's just one anecdote. My equally unscientific impression is that things seem just right.

Technical note; if either of you feel the need to improve this feature edit the engine.cfg file (see below) and you can get the success rate and frequency you want.

Thanks for the tip. I wish I had the option to adjust the extra base advance frequency when there are 2 outs and leave it the way it is when there are less than 2 outs, as the base advancements with under 2 outs seem to be just about perfect. In theory, there should probably be separate variables (2-outs vs less-than-2-outs) since the 2-out baserunner is off on contact. I'd probably also want to distinguish going 1st to 3rd from going 1st to home also. Perhaps I will add these to my OOTP 12 wish list. I can see myself lowering the sacrifice bunt success rate and bunt for hit success rate as these moves seem to be successful a bit too much (perhaps due to too many pitchers being rated as 20s at sacrificing and too many speedsters by rated as 20s at bunt for hit).

Curve Ball Dave · 09-09-2010, 10:57 PM

I can't remember a time when an AI base runner didn't score from second on a 2-out base hit. The PbP always teases me too. It makes it sound as if the runner is holding up at third, but then in the next line...there he goes and he scores.

BTW, when I play out games I only control substitutions too.

mtw · 09-10-2010, 02:18 AM

I'm glad to see a thread started on this topic, as I noticed this immediately from my first played games, and became annoyed enough to start keeping data.

Not only is this change very noticeable from prior versions, it is a major change. While I did not keep stats previously, I am very comfortable asserting it was not previously a problem. I strongly suspect the new third base coach "feature" has a lot to do with the problem.

Right now, I'm only tracking the obvious situations where runners should look to advance at least two bases--runners on second with two out on singles hit to the outfield.

I've only tracked 31 games so far, with 82 total opportunities, but right now the breakdown is about 60-20-20, with runners automatically holding at third 63% of the time, having an option to advance about 18% of the time, and automatically scoring about 19%. Of the 20% holding, it's split evenly between getting thrown out and scoring, which I attribute to my league year being 1902 (i.e. more OF assists).

In the OOTP version I've played by far more than any other--OOTP6.5, runners would almost always scored on second with two outs on base hits to the outfield if they had at least average speed, and always if they were fast. I clearly recollect that almost exclusively, only slow runners would be held at third with two outs. (OOTP6.5, IMHO was the pinnacle of OOTP, and all baseball sims I've ever played. If only Catobase could have been incorporated directly into the game and a decent record book added, it would have been the greatest game ever made.)

I've tried to find the actual data online so far without success, but I'd be very surprised if in MLB runners on 2nd don't score better than 50% of the time on base hits to the outfield, and that runners who are anything other than slugs on the basepaths score closer to 75% of the time.

I've not tried to adjust any settings to correct this problem, so I don't know whether there is a viable workaround.

Almost as concerning is that, when the third base coach "feature" kicks in, whether runners hold or are given an option to advance does not appear to be influenced by speed, base running or OF throwing arm ratings. It appears so far to be completely random. One player I've noticed in particular, my 70 speed, 100 baserunning RF, in three opportunities since I've been tracking this, has been automatically held at 3rd all three times on base hits to the outfield with two outs.

Despite reasonably accurate league totals in all other major statistics, run scoring has been down by almost a run per game from actual MLB totals, something that has not been a problem previously for me.

Unfortunately, this is another strike against OOTP11. Barring a patch fixing this and the especially egregious earned run and RBI scoring bug, this version has turning out to be a real dud for me as a deadball era simmer and fictional player, more so than almost any version released since OOTP6.5.

There really isn't any excuse for a game now in its 11th version (12th if you count 6.5) to get these things wrong. Basically, two things that worked fine previously were broken for OOTP11.

DWK · 09-10-2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

I can't remember a time when an AI base runner didn't score from second on a 2-out base hit.

I've never seen this either

BusterKing · 09-10-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWK

I've never seen this either

I've seen them being thrown out at home.

GEP · 09-10-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

I've seen them being thrown out at home.

I won my first world series that way -- tying run thrown out at home on a single to center with 2 outs in the 9th. That was... OOTP 8? 9?

robc · 09-10-2010, 08:24 AM

I think hardballtimes.com is a reliable site. Here is an article discussing outfielder arms, but it has a chart showing the MLB average for advancing bases both with 2 outs and less than 2 outs. The chart is almost halfway down. Cannons and Popguns — Rating Outfield Arms

My guess is that the percent of runners advancing more than one base in OOTP are pretty close with less than 2 outs, but much too low with 2 outs.

TribeFanInNC · 09-10-2010, 08:54 AM

Good link robc. Interesting stuff. Even I didn't realize that the rate should be like 80-90% from 2B to home with 2 outs. Though clearly it makes sense.

But again, we have to remember that OOTP isn't 2005 MLB. It's also 1936 MLB and 1958 AA and a 1903 hobbit league. There is more to consider than just the current status of baserunning.

09-08-2010, 04:00 PM	#1
Shucker Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 188	Station to Station Baserunning Is anybody noticing a decided reduction in the number of extra bases taken by baserunners? Of course I have no stats to back this up and just started noticing that nearly always, not always a runner will be limited to one base. For instance, as I have noticed, scoring position a good amount of the time now is 3rd base not 2nd. For instance, a real situation from last night. I have a guy with 9 speed (out of 10) on 2nd in a close game with 2 outs. Right handed batter comes up and rips (I don't recall the exact pbp language but it was essentially this) one down the right field line. Speedy runner is held at 3rd. Surprised me a lot. OK, here is something that occurs to me as I write but don't have the details. Maybe RF has a gun, but with speed on 2nd with 2 outs and the fact that it was down the line makes me think he would have had to travel some distance to get to the ball, I really feel like that guy should have scored. I am not complaining, just wondering if anyone else is seeing this. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong and that it is a figment of my imagination.

09-08-2010, 04:17 PM	#2
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	I'm often frustrated with runners not scoring from second with 2 out and any ball hit to the OF. With two outs the runner will be going full bore on contact to try and score that run. It should be rare that the player is held, but it seems to be the opposite. Of course I, too, do not have any statistics to back me up. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

09-09-2010, 10:57 PM	#14
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,394	I can't remember a time when an AI base runner didn't score from second on a 2-out base hit. The PbP always teases me too. It makes it sound as if the runner is holding up at third, but then in the next line...there he goes and he scores. BTW, when I play out games I only control substitutions too. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn.

09-10-2010, 02:18 AM	#15
mtw All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 653	I'm glad to see a thread started on this topic, as I noticed this immediately from my first played games, and became annoyed enough to start keeping data. Not only is this change very noticeable from prior versions, it is a major change. While I did not keep stats previously, I am very comfortable asserting it was not previously a problem. I strongly suspect the new third base coach "feature" has a lot to do with the problem. Right now, I'm only tracking the obvious situations where runners should look to advance at least two bases--runners on second with two out on singles hit to the outfield. I've only tracked 31 games so far, with 82 total opportunities, but right now the breakdown is about 60-20-20, with runners automatically holding at third 63% of the time, having an option to advance about 18% of the time, and automatically scoring about 19%. Of the 20% holding, it's split evenly between getting thrown out and scoring, which I attribute to my league year being 1902 (i.e. more OF assists). In the OOTP version I've played by far more than any other--OOTP6.5, runners would almost always scored on second with two outs on base hits to the outfield if they had at least average speed, and always if they were fast. I clearly recollect that almost exclusively, only slow runners would be held at third with two outs. (OOTP6.5, IMHO was the pinnacle of OOTP, and all baseball sims I've ever played. If only Catobase could have been incorporated directly into the game and a decent record book added, it would have been the greatest game ever made.) I've tried to find the actual data online so far without success, but I'd be very surprised if in MLB runners on 2nd don't score better than 50% of the time on base hits to the outfield, and that runners who are anything other than slugs on the basepaths score closer to 75% of the time. I've not tried to adjust any settings to correct this problem, so I don't know whether there is a viable workaround. Almost as concerning is that, when the third base coach "feature" kicks in, whether runners hold or are given an option to advance does not appear to be influenced by speed, base running or OF throwing arm ratings. It appears so far to be completely random. One player I've noticed in particular, my 70 speed, 100 baserunning RF, in three opportunities since I've been tracking this, has been automatically held at 3rd all three times on base hits to the outfield with two outs. Despite reasonably accurate league totals in all other major statistics, run scoring has been down by almost a run per game from actual MLB totals, something that has not been a problem previously for me. Unfortunately, this is another strike against OOTP11. Barring a patch fixing this and the especially egregious earned run and RBI scoring bug, this version has turning out to be a real dud for me as a deadball era simmer and fictional player, more so than almost any version released since OOTP6.5. There really isn't any excuse for a game now in its 11th version (12th if you count 6.5) to get these things wrong. Basically, two things that worked fine previously were broken for OOTP11. __________________ Over-Zealous Apologist Last edited by mtw; 09-10-2010 at 02:21 AM.

09-10-2010, 08:54 AM	#20
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	Good link robc. Interesting stuff. Even I didn't realize that the rate should be like 80-90% from 2B to home with 2 outs. Though clearly it makes sense. But again, we have to remember that OOTP isn't 2005 MLB. It's also 1936 MLB and 1958 AA and a 1903 hobbit league. There is more to consider than just the current status of baserunning. Last edited by TribeFanInNC; 09-10-2010 at 08:57 AM.

09-08-2010, 05:14 PM	#3
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	Have you adjusted your strategy slider for baserunning? By default (i.e. the slider in the middle), the game is a little more cautious than you would see by today's standards. But remember, OOTP caters to a lot of eras, so it has to be somewhere in the middle. In general, I've been able to adjust my slider to get the aggresiveness I want on the basepaths. But I haven't played a season with the '85 Cardinals either. And with specific runners, I'll use the player strategy slider to make the Kenny Lofton-esque players very aggressive. Hope this helps. Maybe you have already been down this road.

09-08-2010, 06:25 PM	#6
Shucker Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 188	Good point Tribe, but no I haven't messed with any of the sliders. I never have actually. I suppose that would be a good way of dealing with it. My point was that I haven't changed anything, but I seem to notice it more now than ever. Is it possible something changed in the latest patch? I don't know. You have given me a solution to explore if it becomes too troubling, but again, I am only speaking subjectively. I do think I will be watching closer though.

09-08-2010, 06:51 PM	#7
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	Yeah, baserunning is one of the few things that everybody has to adjust because there isn't really another way to deal with it. A lot of the sliders are for online only play or don't really matter much in the grand scheme of things. The baserunning slider applies to everyone.

09-08-2010, 10:44 PM	#8
GEP Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 132	I've played out all my games since I started playing back with OOTP 8 and I haven't noticed any change in guys taking extra bases. I haven't been looking for it, either, and I certainly don't have any comparative statistics between versions. But nothing's jumped out at me.

09-09-2010, 03:39 PM	#10
JackRules1 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central Florida Posts: 245	Somewhat related, I have noticed that my players never score from 1st on a double. I'm not sure what the rate should be, but certainly with 2 outs there should occasionally be a run scored in that situation. I haven't messed with the sliders in OOTP11 but will probably take a look at doing so.

09-09-2010, 04:11 PM	#11
Shucker Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 188	Jack, that is the sort of thing I am noticing. I got a game in last night and had that exact situation. Honestly, it is happening on both sides, so I don't feel like I am being treated unfairly, it just seems like some of these guys should be advancing and scoring more than they are. I guess I should start taking notes when it happens. I didn't notice it before, so I don't know if something has changed systematically or what. I also don't think it is a v11 vs. v10 issue either, since this seems so new to me and I have been playing v11 for a while now. And thanks Buster, that is exactly how I feel but wasn't sure quite how to say it.

09-10-2010, 08:24 AM	#19
robc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,095	I think hardballtimes.com is a reliable site. Here is an article discussing outfielder arms, but it has a chart showing the MLB average for advancing bases both with 2 outs and less than 2 outs. The chart is almost halfway down. Cannons and Popguns — Rating Outfield Arms My guess is that the percent of runners advancing more than one base in OOTP are pretty close with less than 2 outs, but much too low with 2 outs.