Pitchers only throwing fastballs

[TwinsFan]

Am I doing something wrong or is this a bug. Seems about 20% of the pitchers being imported in my historical league only throw fastballs.

Needless to say this is not realistic as they make terrible starters.

Pitchers this affects are notables such as Nolan Ryan, Warren Spahn, Early Wynn just off the top of my head.

[SteveP]

You might need to provide more info. But first, check this:

In League Setup, the Historical tab, on the lefthand side, at the bottom, is a text box for the data base path, which is key in historicals. Make sure this path is pointing to the stats folder in your OOTP11 game.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by TwinsFan

Am I doing something wrong or is this a bug. Seems about 20% of the pitchers being imported in my historical league only throw fastballs.

Needless to say this is not realistic as they make terrible starters.

Pitchers this affects are notables such as Nolan Ryan, Warren Spahn, Early Wynn just off the top of my head.

Are you using Real Stats or Neutralized Stats? Recalc or no recalc? Nolan Ryan as a rookie in 1966 was one of my test subjects and with Real Stats he imported as a 1 Stamina bullpen pitcher with just a fastball. I don't know how he would have progressed, because I didn't check. With Neutralized Stats he imported as an 83 Stamina pitcher with a fastball, curveball, circle change arsenal. Recalc caused him to be more of a finished product, while with Recalc off he had a higher ceiling. Put all that together and I decided to go with Neutralized Stats/Recalc On, but if you want extreme realism, Real Stats/Recalc On will give you the pitcher that he was when he first came up: a short reliever/swing man type who could really bring the heat and not much else. It's up to you to decide what kind of universe you want and then dive in. I've given you one example and I'll bet there are more.

EDIT: In the Neyer/James "Guide to Pitchers" Tom Seaver was quoted as saying that Ryan felt that the reason for his success was that he threw nothing but fastballs until the age of 23 (1970, he broke in in 1966 and missed the 1967 season at the major league level). So there you go in this case the game has it right. Whether it will give him a curveball in 1970 and a circle change in 1986 is anybody's guess. Hope you find what you're looking for in this game.

[SteveP]

I've never seen any pitchers in the game with only one pitch, but I guess it is possible. I doubt very much that it could be 20% of them (considering that I've never seen even one). It would seem like hunting for a possible error in the OP's game would be worthwhile. But I could be wrong, I suppose ...

[TwinsFan]

Originally Posted by SteveP

You might need to provide more info. But first, check this:

In League Setup, the Historical tab, on the lefthand side, at the bottom, is a text box for the data base path, which is key in historicals. Make sure this path is pointing to the stats folder in your OOTP11 game.

It is.

I'm using real stats with recalc and I've simmed the whole history of baseball 5 or 6 times and every time Ryan only throws a fastball and wins about 80-100 games pitching mostly relief. Same goes for Spahn and Wynn.

In another league I'm drafting rookies in 1960 and 13 of the pitchers only throw a fastball.

[TwinsFan]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Nolan Ryan as a rookie in 1966 was one of my test subjects and with Real Stats he imported as a 1 Stamina bullpen pitcher with just a fastball.

I'm "glad" to know I'm not the only one this happens to.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by TwinsFan

I'm "glad" to know I'm not the only one this happens to.

You can get rid of it with neutralized stats, but I can understand if you don't want to play that way. There are pros and cons for just about every option you toggle on or off...and there are a lot of different options.

[Elysian Fields]

Neutralized stats is AI evaluation in the setup pages? Where is it in game, if not? Thanks

[SteveP]

Well, here is what I've found from spending a few minutes on this one:

1. I created a 1960 league using real stats. I found 8 MRs out of a total of 141 MRs who had only fastballs (7 of whom were highly rated FB pitchers). So, now I have seen some.

2. I looked at my ongoing 1958 league which is using Neut stats. There are 4 pitchers of the 8 who show up in both leagues. In this league, none of those 4 are only FB pitchers. And I only found one pitcher in this league who is only a FB pitcher.

3. It is surprising to me that there should be a difference in this respect between using real or neut stats, but I'm not well-versed in how Garlon and Spritze added pitch repertoire data to the Lahman. I note, however, that of the 4 pitchers in question, 2 of them did not play in 1958 -- therefore all of their neut "stats" were created by the Garlon/Spritze method. The other two had very low stats in 1958 -- which means their stats were heavily modified by the Garlon/Spritze data. Don't know if this explains anything, but it can't be overlooked.

I did not find anything close to 20% pitchers having only FBs.

[Spritze]

Pitch Repertoire data comes from BMW via Markus.

Historical Players have a single historical repertoire that is imported when they first appear in the game. AFAIK that repertoire never changes.

If a player is using a different Master.csv than the one that comes with the game or has altered that Master it is likely that pitchers might import without a default repertoire and then pitchers with a small number of IP's would be likely to get single pitch repertoires.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by TwinsFan

Am I doing something wrong or is this a bug. Seems about 20% of the pitchers being imported in my historical league only throw fastballs.

Needless to say this is not realistic as they make terrible starters.

Pitchers this affects are notables such as Nolan Ryan, Warren Spahn, Early Wynn just off the top of my head.

I could get Nolan Ryan sort of. But, Early Wynn was a 5 pitch pitcher. And Spahn by the end of his career threw just about every kind of pitch.

But, really no excuse for such a glitch, I am sorry to say. Look at the Neyer/James guide to pitchers, pitches and pitching. And you should get these things right. (or at least many pitchers decently done)

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Are you using Real Stats or Neutralized Stats? Recalc or no recalc? Nolan Ryan as a rookie in 1966 was one of my test subjects and with Real Stats he imported as a 1 Stamina bullpen pitcher with just a fastball. I don't know how he would have progressed, because I didn't check. With Neutralized Stats he imported as an 83 Stamina pitcher with a fastball, curveball, circle change arsenal. Recalc caused him to be more of a finished product, while with Recalc off he had a higher ceiling. Put all that together and I decided to go with Neutralized Stats/Recalc On, but if you want extreme realism, Real Stats/Recalc On will give you the pitcher that he was when he first came up: a short reliever/swing man type who could really bring the heat and not much else. It's up to you to decide what kind of universe you want and then dive in. I've given you one example and I'll bet there are more.

EDIT: In the Neyer/James "Guide to Pitchers" Tom Seaver was quoted as saying that Ryan felt that the reason for his success was that he threw nothing but fastballs until the age of 23 (1970, he broke in in 1966 and missed the 1967 season at the major league level). So there you go in this case the game has it right. Whether it will give him a curveball in 1970 and a circle change in 1986 is anybody's guess. Hope you find what you're looking for in this game.

But, in the case Spahn, and Wynn it is totally unrealistic, while they (especially Spahn) picked up pitches later in their careers. They were never one pitch pitchers (I'd have to look in my Neyer/James guide but, I am also certain no. I know Spahn had like 7-8 pitches at the end of his career)

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Elysian Fields

Neutralized stats is AI evaluation in the setup pages? Where is it in game, if not? Thanks

There are two options. The first is found on page 1 of the setup wizard when you set your game up. There is an option called "Base Ratings On..." and you can choose to base them on either Real Stats or Neutralized Stats. This same option is found in the game in the following location:

OOTP Menu >> Game Setup >> League Setup >> Historical

On the Historical page you will see a section labeled "Player Ratings". In this section you can choose to recalc or not to recalc ("That is the question, Whether 'tis nobler..." blah, blah, blah etc ), the amount of years (1 [current season], 3 [previous, current, following], or 5 [previous 2, current, following 2] years) that your recalc base will cover and whether or not to double the weight of the current year's stats. Below that you'll find the "Base Ratings On..." Real/Neutralized option again, along with the Base Rookie Fielding Ratings, Base Pitcher Stamina Ratings on current season, 3-Year Period, or Entire Career. These two options are also found on the first page of the setup wizard along with the Base Ratings On option.

It is probably optimal to make the Real/Neutralized selection when you're first setting up the game, as I'm not sure if you can switch between Real and Neutralized once the game has started, but I'm confident that SteveP will know this as he is the master tinkerer of OOTP settings.

I believe the "AI evaluation" option to which you are referring is found on the "Global Setup" page (OOTP Menu >> Game Setup >> Global Setup tab). Am I correct in that assumption? If so, it offers a choice between having players Overall Ratings be based on AI evaluation, which is derived from the choices you make on the "AI options" page, or on pure ratings, which are derived from the options you choose to base ratings on for hitting, running, fielding, pitches etc, which kind of takes us back where we started with the Base Ratings On... option. Confused yet? I know I am and I probably haven't explained it too well.

If that's the case you can ask follow up questions and hopefully someone will get back to you soon. Remember everyone's just a fellow gamer volunteering to help other fellow gamers, so sometimes it can take quite a while. If it does just keep bumping and hopefully someone will come along that knows the answer to your questions, which will of course probably lead to further questions, but that's OK. The steep learning curve is worth it. The other option is the excellent help folder found in your Documents >> Out of the Park Developments >> OOTP Baseball 11 folder. Forum member battists put it together this year and I find it easier to use than past versions. Alright battists! You can easily jump to the section that corresponds to your question and find instructions and illustrations to help you out. Hope this helps.

[Left-handed Badger]

I looked up Spahn in the guide.

List for his early career.

1. Fastball 2. Curve 3. Change 4. Sinker

And for his later career he added a "Screwball" in 1955 (thought to be a Circle Change), a slider in 1958. And a Knuckleball in 1963.

Now, I can understand, of course, depending on when it started the missing of those latter pitches. But, where the heck, is the Curve, Change, and Sinker?

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Pitch Repertoire data comes from BMW via Markus.

Historical Players have a single historical repertoire that is imported when they first appear in the game. AFAIK that repertoire never changes.

If a player is using a different Master.csv than the one that comes with the game or has altered that Master it is likely that pitchers might import without a default repertoire and then pitchers with a small number of IP's would be likely to get single pitch repertoires.

Except Ryan, Spahn, and Wynn didnt have a small number of IPs.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Except Ryan, Spahn, and Wynn didnt have a small number of IPs.

The problem (I think) is that they each had a small number of innings early (not Wynn) on in their careers. Ryan debuted in 1966 and didn't have a 200+ IP season until 1972, throwing a total of 510 IP in the six seasons between 1966 and 1971. Spahn debuted in 1942 and did not have a 200+ IP season until 1947, throwing a total of 141.2 IP thanks to WWII in the five seasons from 1942 through 1946. Wynn debuted in 1939 and did not hit 200+ IP until 1943. In the four seasons from 1939 through 1942 he threw 250.1 IP.

It all goes back to the problem that Markus has said he will have fixed in the next patch. When you choose to use recalc for player development it overrides the setting you choose for "Base Potential Ratings On...". Most historical players agree the most accurate setting on which to base potential ratings is "Remaining Years of Career" but when you select recalc your potential ratings choice is nullified and potential ratings are based on whatever recalc base (1, 3, or 5) you choose. This is not a problem when using Neutralized Stats because empty or nearly empty seasons are filled in by whatever method Garlon/Spritze uses, but with Real Stats this does not happen sooo:

Let's take Lynn Nolan Ryan Jr. for example using a recalc base of 3 years. He debuted in 1966 with a whopping 3 inning 15.00 ERA performance. He wasn't in the majors again until 1968, but with a 3 year base that 3 inning 15.00 ERA performance is stretched from 1965 through 1967 (please correct me if I'm wrong), so the computer says: "This guy's not gonna be around long" and gives him just a fastball and a 1 Stamina rating. The only workaround(s) I can see (if you use Real Stats) until this is fixed is to: a) use a 5 year recalc base and don't double weight the current year or b) don't use recalc at all which isn't too palatable to the history buffs that want Nolan Ryan to be Nolan Ryan and Tim Conroy to be Tim Conroy (thanks to random function at Baseball-Reference ).

By the way I did look up the pitch repertoires of the three pitchers mentioned in the Master.csv file and they are as follows:

Ryan: 1) Fastball 2) Curveball 3) Circle Change

Spahn: 1) Changeup 2) Fastball 3) Curveball 4) Screwball 5) Slider 6) Sinker 7) Knuckleball

Wynn: 1) Knuckleball 2) Fastball 3) Changeup 4) Curveball 5) Slider

Their respective repertoires are there. It's a matter of Markus fixing the code that is not allowing them to shine through when one uses Real Stats and Recalc. *crosses fingers*

[Left-handed Badger]

yeah, iforgot to check Wynn. I was fixated on Spahn. (lefties have to stick up for one another. )

But, that does start to make a little sense as far why they had few innings. (I was thinking full career, and those 3 guys are pretty high up there). It still doesnt help me understand why they have one pitch, but I admit I probably cant be made to understand that. Just seems if you do the research it should be right. (and we have that one book, to tell us a lot of that). Though, I guess when I think about how much work programming takes I should give them some slack, in the research dept. I'm just a little bit of a perfectionist when it comes to getting the right pitches to the right guy.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

yeah, iforgot to check Wynn. I was fixated on Spahn. (lefties have to stick up for one another. )

But, that does start to make a little sense as far why they had few innings. (I was thinking full career, and those 3 guys are pretty high up there). It still doesnt help me understand why they have one pitch, but I admit I probably cant be made to understand that. Just seems if you do the research it should be right. (and we have that one book, to tell us a lot of that). Though, I guess when I think about how much work programming takes I should give them some slack, in the research dept. I'm just a little bit of a perfectionist when it comes to getting the right pitches to the right guy.

See what happens if you use Real Stats/5 year Recalc with no double weighting with one of this trio in their rookie seasons: Wynn (1939), Spahn (1942) and Ryan (1966). I hope the repertoires change, but I'm not too optimistic. It has to be dealt with because it affects players who play with Real Stats and that is after all the default setting for historical games.

[SteveP]

I'm a bit confused here.

Both Wynn and Spann get correct repertoires (and the same repertoires) in both my 1958/Neut league and the 1960/Real league that I created for this test. As best I can tell, the only pitchers getting questionable repertoires occur when using Neut stats, if those pitchers had no, or very low, stats in the year that the league starts (because their repertoires get invented or modified by the process that creates Neut stats for those years).

Spritze says that pitchers have one repertoire in the DB that will be the same for them no matter what year you choose. From that I conclude that Wynn and Spann would have the same repertoires that I see if I created either of these leagues at any prior year in which they played.

Therefore, I don't see how anything I could do would cause these guys to be one-pitch wonders. But apparently that is happening to some of you. The question is why. Spritze seems to be saying that it's because people are doing something with the DB. I suspect not, but that just means it's still a mystery.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by SteveP

doing something with the DB.

CAN cause what has been reported but I suspect there are perhaps a hugeish number of other possibilities as well (Hugeish= 1 or more). Repertoires are applied differently based on whether a league is fictional or historical and what is reported here is normal behavior in a fictional setting but abnormal behavior in a historical setting. I suspect OOTP may be applying the wrong "rules" as to repertoires in certain instances. Fictional repertoires seem to be applied to historical players in certain instances. Perhaps this could be reported as a bug by a bug reporter who reports bugs to the OOTP bugologist? Just sayin............................................. ............