Earned runs bug

[rudoggy]

I can not follow the Earned runs in this game.
Baltimore:
Starting in first inning after a 3 run home run(so the bases are now clear and the runs should start fresh for new pitcher), a pitching change to Tory Mahle.
He proceeds to give up a HPB, single, walk, grand slam, none of this is charged as earned to the pitcher.
Pitching change to Juan Rincon, he gives up HBP, 2 run home run, and solo home run, none charged as earned to pitcher.

There are no errors involved.

I have seen this before, but is an extreme example.
This is not a new league, but a carry forward from versions past.

[Craig Scarborough]

Did the one error occur when the starter was pitching?

For whatever reason, I think OOTP just gives up and makes any remaining runs scored in the inning unearned after an error occurs. Certainly, not very elegant or accurate, but that's how you get weird boxscores like you posted.

[rudoggy]

i did supply the game log, just in pdf as it was too big for jpeg.
Yes error did happen while the starter was in there,5 batters in.
Like i said, i have seen this before, but this one just stuck out like crazy, that is a lot of runs to just disappear.
I didnt advance the game in case anyone wanted to view the files, and i dont keep game logs.

should this post be moved?

[hefalumps]

While I have seen OOTP make scoring mistakes with regards to errors and earned runs, from what I can see, I believe OOTP got it right on this one.

Before the error occurred, there was one run in and runners on first and second with one out. The #5 batter hit a grounder to second base that was booted for an error, allowing the runner at second to score, the runner at first to go to third, and the batter to reach (either first or second - log doesn't say).

Now, let's say that the second baseman hadn't made the error. The official scorer can't assume a double play or that he would've tried to get the out at second or third - he can only assume that he would've gotten the batter out at first and that the runners at first and second would advance to second and third. So without the error, there should have been two runners on, two outs, and only one run in. With the error, there were two runners on, one out, and two runs in.

Batter #6 jacks a three-run homer to give the Angels five runs in the inning. All three of those runs are earned, because even if the error hadn't occurred, batter #6 still would have hit the homer with two runners on - just different runners. So of the five runs, only four are earned - the one that scored on the error is considered unearned.

The bases are empty, and the Orioles change pitchers. Without the error, there should be two outs and four runs in. Batter #7 is hit by a pitch, batter #8 singles, and batter #9 walks to load the bases. Batter #1 steps up and flies out to right. Without the error, this would have been the last out of the inning, and the Angels only would have scored four runs. But the error allows batter #2 to come up and hit a grand slam, batter #4 to hit a two-run homer, and batter #5 to hit a solo shot before batter #6 finally makes the last out. Without the error, those seven runs given up by the relievers never would have scored, so to my understanding, they should all be unearned.

So I think OOTP actually got this one right.

[fintach]

I agree with hefalumps here, OOTP got this one right, but before I saw his post I already broke it down from the Game Log, and since I did it I'll post it anyway. My comments below are in {}, and I snipped all non-result pitches.

Pitching: LHP Andrew Fudge
Batting: RHB Kevin Cherry 0-0: SOLO HOME RUN (Flyball, 7LD), Distance : 340 ft

{Earned.}

Batting: SHB Gary Wachter 0-0: Strikes out swinging

{1 out}

Batting: RHB Hugh Koepp 0-0: SINGLE (Groundball, 6)
Batting: LHB Randy Brown Jr 0-0: SINGLE (Line Drive, 3D)
Batting: RHB Rick Brown 0-0: Reached on error, E4 (Groundball, 4M)
Hugh Koepp scores

{This run may or may not be earned. At this point it isn't certain. The error means that we have a virtual second out, so if an actual third out happens next, the run is unearned.}

Batting: RHB Vernon Wells 0-0: 3-RUN HOME RUN (Flyball, 7D), Distance : 388 ft

{Keopp's run is now earned, because he would have scored on the HR. Brown's run is unearned because he reached on an error.}
{Fudge's totals: 5 R, 4 ER}

Pitching: LHP Tory Mahle
Batting: LHB Hideaki Jouda 0-0: Hit by Pitch
Batting: RHB José González 0-0: SINGLE (Groundball, 56S) (infield hit)
Batting: RHB Marcelino Lopez 0-0: Base on Balls
Batting: RHB Kevin Cherry 0-0: Fly out, F9 (Flyball, 9M)

{Second real out, virtual third out because of the error. All runs that score from this point on are unearned, because if the error had not been committed the inning would be over}

Batting: SHB Gary Wachter 0-0: GRAND SLAM HOME RUN (Flyball, 7D), Distance : 385 ft

{Mahle's totals: 4 R, 0 ER}

Pitching: RHP Juan Rincon
Batting: RHB Hugh Koepp 0-0: Hit by Pitch
Batting: LHB Randy Brown Jr 0-0: 2-RUN HOME RUN (Flyball, 7LD), Distance : 359 ft
Batting: RHB Rick Brown 0-0: SOLO HOME RUN (Flyball, 89XD), Distance : 377 ft
Batting: RHB Vernon Wells 0-0: Ground out 6-3 (Groundball, 6)

{Rincon's totals, 3 R, 0 ER}

Bottom of the 1st over - 12 run(s), 8 hit(s), 1 error(s), 0 left on base; Baltimore 2 - Anaheim 12

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Actually, the game got it wrong:

Originally Posted by MLB rules

(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs.

Rule 10.16(i) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. For example:

(1) With two out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter, one earned run to Roger and three unearned runs to the team (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Baker batted and an error was committed).

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

That said, it's a complicated rule, and one that would require (in this case) earned runs charged to the pitcher but unearned runs to the team. If the game could just get the normal situations right I'd be happy.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

That said, it's a complicated rule, and one that would require (in this case) earned runs charged to the pitcher but unearned runs to the team. If the game could just get the normal situations right I'd be happy.

Does the game ever charge an unearned run, and then go back and change that run to earned? Example: Batter A triples and scores on a passed ball. Batter B singles. Is that run going to be earned in OOTP?

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Does the game ever charge an unearned run, and then go back and change that run to earned? Example: Batter A triples and scores on a passed ball. Batter B singles. Is that run going to be earned in OOTP?

No. I've sent a support ticket on this, and it's basically been called a design flaw. That's why earned runs are my issue for this summer - I want to see it changed in OOTP12.

[hefalumps]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Actually, the game got it wrong:

Eck,

Thanks for the insight - I was not aware of that rule at all. And yes, I can see how it would be difficult to implement due to the possibility of pitcher earned runs and team earned runs not matching up.

In my head, I can be OK with the rule in OOTP's universe. Why shouldn't the reliever benefit from the out the original pitcher should have gotten if not for the error? If it hadn't been for the error, that third pitcher wouldn't even have been needed. Why should his ERA go up when he shouldn't even have been in the game?

That's how I'll justify it to myself. Thanks for teaching me something I didn't know though!

[rudoggy]

Thanks all for replies.
Alot of rules i don't really like, like tracking of virtual outs. If you come in and give up a few HR, even though you are only needed due to a few errors, the runs should still be yours. I think it should be that you treat each pitcher vs batter(not counting inherited runners) as their own little battle, ignoring the error aspect of "why" the pitcher is there in the first place.
Im sure this one slips though all the time, and it takes an extreme inning to notice it. If this is a known issue, then i will just sim on.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

Thanks for teaching me something I didn't know though!

No worries. I was actually going to agree with your post, but something at the back of my mind was bugging me about it - I researched earned runs in some detail a month or so ago when the problem with OOTP recording them first arose. Once I did I was reminded of the ER-to-the-pitcher-but-not-the-team rule.

The game is definitely going to need to track the "virtual inning" at some point in the near future to get ER right though, and when it does so there's no reason it can't get this little sub-issue right as well.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

In my head, I can be OK with the rule in OOTP's universe. Why shouldn't the reliever benefit from the out the original pitcher should have gotten if not for the error? If it hadn't been for the error, that third pitcher wouldn't even have been needed. Why should his ERA go up when he shouldn't even have been in the game?

That's how I'll justify it to myself. Thanks for teaching me something I didn't know though!

This is a situation where OOTP simplifies the Real life rule. Baseball has a number of rather idiosyncratic rules that wouldn't be there if you were writing the rules from scratch, so OOTP simplifying them isn't necessarily bad, but I can see why people do want all the bizarre idiosyncrasies of the MLB rules there.

[fintach]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Actually, the game got it wrong:

Huh. I had no idea. Thanks for pointing it out!

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Does the game ever charge an unearned run, and then go back and change that run to earned? Example: Batter A triples and scores on a passed ball. Batter B singles. Is that run going to be earned in OOTP?

In fact, what the game does is even worse than this problem.

Example: Batter A singles to center, and goes to second on the center fielder's error. Batter B triples. OOTP will count this as an unearned run. I can understand the "virtual inning" not being implemented yet, but not knowing the difference between this and a two-base error really is pretty bad.

[mtw]

I was going to start a post but conveniently this thread was already active. I play out about 50 games a season in a deadball league, and just completed my first in OOTP11 (11.1.8) and it is readily apparent that OOTP11 has a lot of issues with scoring unearned runs and RBI's in innings with errors or passed balls. In fact, the improper scoring of unearned runs and RBI's in innings with errors and passed balls has been far more frequent than proper scoring.

Examples:

• 1 out, batter singles, passed ball moves him to 2nd. Next batter hits inside the park home run. No errors up to that point. One of the runs was scored as unearned. Correct scoring is both runs earned.
  
• 0 out, 1st batter singles, 2nd batter reaches on second baseman fielding error, 3rd batter triples in both runners, both runs scored as unearned. Correct scoring is 1 run is earned, 1 unearned.
  
• 0 out, runners on 1st and 2nd, next batter hits single to RF, RF boots ball allowing all runners to advance one base, batter gets an RBI. Likely correct scoring is no RBI. (Note: Possible that official scorer may have assumed runner on 2nd would have tried to score on hit (more likely if 2 out than 0 out), so possible to justify this way, but not on every occurrence).
  
• 1 out, runners on 2nd and 3rd, next batter hits ground ball to third baseman who commits fielding error, both runners score, batter credited with 2 RBI. Correct scoring is 1 RBI (possibly no RBI if third baseman playing in).
  
• 2 out, runners on 2nd and 3rd, fly to left dropped by left fielder. Both runners score. Batter credited with 2 RBI. Correct scoring is no RBI.
  
• 2 out, runner on 3rd, ground ball to third baseman who boots it (commits fielding error). Runner scores, batter credited with RBI. Correct scoring is no RBI.
  
• 1 out, runner on 3rd (reached on double, advanced on ground out), infield at normal depth, ground ball to SS booted (commits fielding error). No errors or passed balls in inning. Runner scores, run scored as unearned. Correct scoring is that run is earned.

There are many more examples, but they become repetitive. The situation appears to be that OOTP11 introduced new scoring errors--I don't recall seeing these kind of errors going back to at least OOTP5, maybe even longer. OOTP generally has done a good job scoring earned and unearned runs going back many versions.

On the bright side, one scoring error was corrected in OOTP11 (albeit inadvertently I'm guessing given the RBI scoring bugs)--namely that when a runner is trying to score on a play at the plate, and the PbP says the OF makes an error throwing home, the batter is now credited with an RBI where no RBI was awarded in previous versions. Batter should always get an RBI and the OF should not be charged with an error unless the bad throw allows other runners an extra base--official scorers never award errors for bad OF throws on a play at any base unless the bad throw allows other runners an extra base (or the runner on whom the play was made an extra base). While not an official scoring rule, in practice, official scorers never assume OF assists-the runner gets the credit for making the play happen and the batter gets the RBI-although if a fielder drops the ball on a tag, the fielder will get the error and no RBI will be awarded. Drove me nuts that bug did, because it essentially wiped out 100+ RBI's every year in my deadball league.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by mtw

On the bright side, one scoring error was corrected in OOTP11 (albeit inadvertently I'm guessing given the RBI scoring bugs)--namely that when a runner is trying to score on a play at the plate, and the PbP says the OF makes an error throwing home, the batter is now credited with an RBI where no RBI was awarded in previous versions. Batter should always get an RBI and the OF should not be charged with an error unless the bad throw allows other runners an extra base--official scorers never award errors for bad OF throws on a play at any base unless the bad throw allows other runners an extra base (or the runner on whom the play was made an extra base). While not an official scoring rule, in practice, official scorers never assume OF assists-the runner gets the credit for making the play happen and the batter gets the RBI-although if a fielder drops the ball on a tag, the fielder will get the error and no RBI will be awarded. Drove me nuts that bug did, because it essentially wiped out 100+ RBI's every year in my deadball league.

This is one that's always driven me up a wall. I know that it still affects earned runs.

[Perceptor]

The earned runs issue I'm sure will be addressed. It's a letdown considering how great this game is in the other aspects. In any event, it won't deter me from continuing to play OOTP

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by mtw

[*]2 out, runner on 3rd, ground ball to third baseman who boots it (commits fielding error). Runner scores, batter credited with RBI. Correct scoring is no RBI.

Just saw this one myself in a solo league. I'm going to keep mentioning these from time to time to ensure that some attention is paid to proper scoring for the next version.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by mtw

1 out, batter singles, passed ball moves him to 2nd. Next batter hits inside the park home run. No errors up to that point. One of the runs was scored as unearned. Correct scoring is both runs earned.

Just saw a bug that's similar to this one.

Runner on first, two out. Runner attempts to steal second, catcher throws ball into the outfield, runner takes third on the error. Next batter hits a triple. OOTP scored the run as unearned.

Again, if we recreate the inning, we don't assume things like a caught stealing. So the runner "should" be on second. (That's why he gets credit for a stolen base on the play, which OOTP correctly gives him.) If the batter had singled, it would be reasonable to call this an unearned run if the following batter was out to end the inning. But obviously it's not okay when there's a triple.