Discussion Topic - State Your Top Twenty Heavies Of All Time

[djday45]

Lets compile a series of all time ratings for weight classes. Starting with heavy give me your top twenty in order, dicuss your reasoning if you wish, I will complie a total list of combined ratings.

mine

1. Muhummad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Mike Tyson
10. George Foreman
11. Gene Tunney
12. James Jeffries
13 Evander Holyfield
14. Peter Jackson
15. Joe Frazier
16. Max Schmeling
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Jersey Joe Walcott
19. Sam Langford
20. John L Sullivan

[John Dewey]

Top twenty depends on your criteria. If you mean top ten in the traditional way, in other words, who dominated his era, then a top ten or twenty list of heavyweights could possibly include such names as Jack Johnson, Jim Jeffries, or John L. Sullivan. If you mean who could beat who if you put them in the ring together in their primes, the list would look somewhat different. The latter is the criteria I prefer to use. Consequently John L. Sullivan and Jim Jeffries are no where close to even making the top twenty and Jack Johnson barely makes it if at all. My number one and two, unsurprisingly, are Muhammed Ali and Joe Louis. The rest of the 18 is not so clear. I'd include Rocky Marciano but he'd be much farther down on my list then on most people's list as he came from an era where the HVY division was very weak. Remember that the overblown Light Heavyweight Ezzard Charles and the oldster J. J. Walcott almost beat him. Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes, Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney would be near the top in some order. Sonny Liston and George Foreman would be present within the top ten. Evander Holyfield would have to be considered as well as Mike Tyson. Floyd Patterson, Max Baer and Max Schmeling would definately make the top twenty but where I couldn't tell you. Bob Fitzsimmons and James Corbett would not even be considered on my list. I hope my strong opinion doesn't offend anybody but there it is.

[Rocky]

(1) Joe Louis
(2) Muhammad Ali
(3) Lennox Lewis
(4) Rocky Marciano
(5) Mike Tyson
(6) Larry Holmes
(7) Jack Johnson
(8) Jack Dempsey
(9) Gene Tunney
(10)George Foreman
(11)Evander Holyfield
(12)James Jeffries
(13)Sonny Liston
(14)Joe Frazier
(15)Ezzard Charles
(16)Jersey Joe Walcott
(17)Riddick Bowe
(18)Sam Langford
(19)Vitali Klitschko
(20)Wladimir Klitschko

[bear]

My IBRO Heavyweight submission looked like this

IBRO ALL-TIME POLL selections of Donald R. Koss


I have tried to follow the custom of the Ring’s rating system and added groupings. When a boxer is rated in more than one class I’ve placed a parenthetical weight class to indicate where he’d be placed were these ratings limited to one man in one division. For instances when this occurs I’ve added a couple of positions in to indicate what my ratings would be in a one man one division format. I also added a 16th boxer to the list, because that number would make more sense in a hypothetical tournament. I plan to add more boxers to the groupings when I incorporate my era by era rankings. Ill-fated and unfortunate top rankers like Justo Suarez, Steve Hamas, Art Lasky, Jackie Darthard, and Ernie Schaff need be remembered, so this is still, very much, a work in progress. The greatest problem I encountered was attempting to rank good men in junior classes in the traditional weight classes. Men like Kid Berg, and Flash Elorde suffered here. One thought on the classification of eras, welterweight seemed to me to be the least distinguishable group. Each era’s positives and negatives seemed most balanced.

Heavyweight All-Time Ranking

Group One
1. Joe Louis, #1
2. Muhammad Ali, #2
3. Jack Dempsey, #3
4. Jack Johnson, #4
Group Two
1. Gene Tunney, #5 (LHW)
2. James J. Jeffries, #6
3. Rocky Marciano, #7
4. George Foreman, #8
5. Larry Holmes, # 9
6. Sonny Liston, # 10
7. Joe Frazier, # 11
Group Three
1. Sam Langford, #12 (LHW)
2. Lennox Lewis, # 13
3. Evander Holyfield, #14
4. Bob Fitzsimmons, #15 (MW)
5. Mike Tyson, #16
6. Elmer Ray, #17
7. George Godfrey, #18
Group Four
Ezzard Charles (LHW), Riddick Bowe, Jersey Joe Walcott, Peter Jackson, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Joe Jeanette, Harry Wills, Ken Norton, James J. Corbett, Jimmy Bivins, Jack Sharkey, Sam McVey, Jimmy Young, Floyd Patterson, Lee Savold, Tommy Burns, Marvin Hart, John L. Sullivan, Henry Cooper.

BEST ERAS Rank the Eras (1 = best, 2 = next best, etc.)

1880-1900 ____5______
1901-1920 ___ 3______
1921-1940 ____2_____
1941-1960 ____4______
1961-1980 ____1______
1981-2000 ____6______

[IceTea]

1- Dempsey
2- Louis
3- Marciano
4- Clay/Ali
5- Tunney
6- Johnson
7- Holmes
8- Foreman
9- Jeffries
10- Frazier
11- Lewis
12- Langford
13- Holyfield
14- Tyson
15- Liston
16- Jeanette
17- Bowe
18- Jackson
19- Wladimir Klitschko
20- Schmeling
21- Wills
22- McVey
23- V. Klitschko
24- Charles
25- Jersey Joe Walcott

[bdennis2]

1-ali
2-johnson
3-holmes
4-louis
5-dempsey
6-frazier
7-l.lewis
8-tyson
9-langford
10-foreman
11-tunney
12-marciano
13-jeffries
14-liston
15-holyfield
16-norton
17-bowe
18-w.klitschko
19-m.baer
20-v.klitschko
21-p.jackson
22-h.wills
23-j.walcott
24-m.schmeling
25-jeanette

[Mark42661]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. James Jeffries
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Joe Louis
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sam Langford
8. Larry Holmes
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Sonny Liston
11. Mike Tyson
12. Max Baer (if he takes the fight seriously)
13. George Foreman
14. Joe Frazier
15. Evander Holyfield
16. Tom Sharkey
17. Lennox Lewis
18. James J. Corbett
19. Floyd Patterson
20. Tommy Burns

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by John Dewey

I hope my strong opinion doesn't offend anybody but there it is.

It didn't offend me in any way. Actually, I agree with just about all of it. You can't rate if you're not sure what you're rating on, but who would beat who if you had a time machine is how I think about these things. And I would also have a hard time putting anyone from over a century ago in my list.

Didn't someone have a backwards universe going once? It seems there was, but if not, maybe I'll do one sometime. My guess is that if history really went that way, the Klitschko's and Lennox Lewis would benefit from being on lists for so long and be seen as all-time legends while we'd all be moaning about what a bunch of little stiffs the current heavweights, Fitzsimmons, Corbett and Sullivan were.

[John Dewey]

Lennos Lewis, the Klitchko brothers and Riddick Bowe would have to be considered because of their combination of size and skill. This would make them hard for any heavyweight to beat.

[Jersey-Jim]

I have to update my own list. The thing is, the Foreman who fought Ali in Zaire was just a few punches away from stopping Ali by his own admission in Tom Hauser's book "Muhamman Ali: His Life And Times."

Thick book, great read. Foreman didn't know how badly he'd rocked Ali and that's when Ali said, "That'll all you got?!"

Foreman said he was totally demoralized when he said that.

The point is, one of the best chins of all-time had to use every in his power to escape being pushed over the brink that night. He said he realized that moving away from Foreman using his legs all night would wear him out so that was the only option left.

Ali took huge shots to the body and some to the head, too.

So the question is; could Dempsey, Johnson and other tops Heavies of the past had the chin to survive big George on that night?

It's hard to see very many Heavyweight surviving that, so that's why I'd have to rate him up there. If you rate fighters by accomplishments, you'd probably have to put Joe Louis at 1 or 2.

If you rate by who would have beaten who, Foreman would be up there. So would Lennox Lewis. If he fought cautiously, using his jab and big right hand, the smaller Heavyweights would have had some problems.

[PWillisTheMan]

Twenty is too many for me, so many that would change between breakfast and lunch. Ten I can do

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Johnson
6. Foreman
7. Lewis
8. Frazier
9. Marciano
10. Liston

[Mad Bomber]

1. Louis
2. Johnson
3. Ali
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Foreman
7. Lewis
8. Liston
9. Dempsey
10. Langford

[Claybor]

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Jack Johnson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Mike Tyson
8. Gene Tunney
9. Sam Langford
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Joe Frazier
12. Larry Holmes
13. Sonny Liston
14. Evander Holyfield
15. Riddick Bowe
16. Max Schmelling
17. Ken Norton
18. James Jeffries
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Peter Jackson

[Piggy Lid]

1 Ali
2 Marciano
3 Tunney
4 Louis
5 Johnson
6 Holmes
7 Foreman
8 Frazier
9 Lewis
10 Holyfield
11 Dempsey
12 Liston
13 Langford
14 Jackson
15 Patterson
16 Tyson
17 Wills
18 McVea
19 Schmelling
20 Witherspoon

[John Dewey]

I agree with Jersey Jim. No one hit like Foreman except maybe Earnie Shavers, and Foreman also had good skills as well (unlike Shavers). A boxer could beat him but no one who tried to trade with him was likely going to last long. He should definitely be in anybody's top ten and, arguably, top five. Liston might have a chance taking Foreman on at his own game, and, possibly either of the Klitchko brothers or Lennox Lewis on a good night, but that's about it. But, on the other hand, I remember Ron Lyle decking him a couple of times in their brawl, so you can never really tell.

[PWillisTheMan]

Wlad would fill a diaper staring across the ring at George foreman. That wouldn't make it out of the first round.

[John Dewey]

Maybe if he took a few swigs of vodka in the dressing room before he came out he could do the job. Those Cossack types could really fight if you gave them their Vodka. Ask Napoleon and Hitler about that.

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by John Dewey

Maybe if he took a few swigs of vodka in the dressing room before he came out he could do the job. Those Cossack types could really fight if you gave them their Vodka. Ask Napoleon and Hitler about that.

LOL

Napoleon barely had anyone there to fight. The Russian Winter KO1 Foreman. Wlad couldn't beat him in 100 fights.

[John Dewey]

"Only" the battle of Borodino which was, until WWI, the biggest battle in the history of mankind. Check out the DVD Russian version of War And Peace. You're right though. It is kind of hard to imagine either of the Klitchko's standing triumphant over Foreman's prostrate form. Maybe Ron Lyle could have beaten the Ukrainian boys too? Or Earnie Shavers? Definately Sonny Liston! But upsets do happen and it sometimes takes just one lucky shot.

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by John Dewey

"Only" the battle of Borodino which was, until WWI, the biggest battle in the history of mankind. Check out the DVD Russian version of War And Peace. You're right though. It is kind of hard to imagine either of the Klitchko's standing triumphant over Foreman's prostrate form. Maybe Ron Lyle could have beaten the Ukrainian boys too? Or Earnie Shavers? Definately Sonny Liston! But upsets do happen and it sometimes takes just one lucky shot.

The French lost thousands of soldiers traveling there.

I love lyle, shavers & norton over wlad. I really can't group the bros together. Vitali is better and not nearly as fragile. It's pretty much a given that i would take any aggressive puncher with a sturdy beard over Wlad. I doubt he would make my top 100.