Long Term Injuries

[jwinn66]

I have no problem with the number of injuries, but it seems that nearly every team has at least 1 player out for 8 months or more. Is it me, or is this a bit out of whack?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by jwinn66

I have no problem with the number of injuries, but it seems that nearly every team has at least 1 player out for 8 months or more. Is it me, or is this a bit out of whack?

If you think so then pull up injury.txt in a text editor and have at it.

[jbergey22]

Please see this thread this area is being discussed

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...just-fine.html

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by jwinn66

I have no problem with the number of injuries, but it seems that nearly every team has at least 1 player out for 8 months or more. Is it me, or is this a bit out of whack?

Seems about right actually

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/injuries

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Seems about right actually

MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

My job here is done.

[SackAttack]

I'm thinking that the 'setback' system might be a way to deal with CEIs in a more realistic fashion.

Instead of instant 'boom, career over!' sort of stuff, which realistically shouldn't be happening except in extreme cases, I'm thinking that the 'setback' system could be used as a way to model a player who's rehabbing, trying to come back from injury, and for whatever reason, keeps hitting the wall.

I can think of very few injuries, at least in my lifetime, where it was an instant 'that's it, he's done.'

Even guys like Jason Kendall, with that gruesome injury a few years back, have still fought their way back into the league, even if they aren't the player they once were.

[injury log]

I posted in another open thread here a list of eight guys from the last three years who have had instant CEIs in real life. It certainly happens. As part of OOTP-X's new injury model, there are now 'CEI setbacks' in the game, which have replaced some of the 'instant CEIs'.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by injury log

I posted in another open thread here a list of eight guys from the last three years who have had instant CEIs in real life.

Do you include Lidle and Adenhart in those since they were off the field (and fatal)?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by injury log

I posted in another open thread here a list of eight guys from the last three years who have had instant CEIs in real life. It certainly happens. As part of OOTP-X's new injury model, there are now 'CEI setbacks' in the game, which have replaced some of the 'instant CEIs'.

Two things.

1) It does happen, but almost always it's something either fatal or incredibly debilitating. Even Tony Conigliaro made a comeback attempt after getting hit in the head. He was never the same player, but most players will make the effort.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be ANY instant CEI, but I do think they should be in the minority compared with 'CEI setbacks.'

2) I would hope that whoever wrote the news stories for the CEI setbacks phrased it more as retirement as a result of the setbacks than as "John Doe has suffered a setback that will end his career!"

[seadog75]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Seems about right actually

MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

Alright, well after starting up two different new 2009 leagues and not being able to get beyond May because of the overwhelming amount of serious injuries to star hitters (i'm not concerned with pitchers), who've also never ever been hurt for an extended period of time, I ran a few tests. I went through each 'under the knife' injury log and looked at who was on the 60-day DL, not including the players who started on the DL to begin the season. My first game I had the injury setting to OOTP standard and all the rest were to MLB standard (High). The first two were the leagues in which I controlled the Mariners and the last 5 were just quick test leagues. I stopped my first league at 5/18, the second on 5/3 and the rest on 5/1. So this is really just a month worth of games; you can only imagine what might happen in another 5 months. Here's the results:

1st game: 12 pitchers and 18 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Sizemore, Hunter, and Zimmerman)
2nd game: 12 pitchers and 18 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Sizemore, Guerrero, Beltran, Wright, and Howard.....wowser!!!!...all out for the season)
Test #1: 11 pitchers and 16 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Bruce, Magglio, Teahan, Furcal, and Utley)
Test #2: 22 pitchers and 20 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Pedroia, Reyes and Hamilton)
Test #3: 14 pitchers and 12 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Hunter, Abreu and Hamilton)
Test #4: 15 pitchers and 13 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Ortiz, Bradley, Martin, and Ibanez)
Test #5: 6 pitchers and 14 hitters on the 60-day DL (including Chris B. Young, Roberts, Helton, Posada, Damon, and Hamilton)

Does that seem like a pretty disturbing trend? First off, pitchers should always makeup more of the 60-day DL. Just look at the link in the quote above. By my count there are 29 pitchers and 11 hitters on the 60-day DL right now in the MLB.

So why is OOTPX way way off in this respect? And also there is NO real good hitters on the 60-day DL in real life. I know that will most likely change by the end of the season, but it's already been 2 months, compared to only a month of simming. Something is up!!!

By the by, I have owned every version of OOTP since I saw Season Ticket Baseball in store back in the day. I really appreciate all the work gone into improving the injury system, but this really seems to be a big flaw. I haven't looked at other years of real MLB players, but comparing this year to OOTPX it's obvious there's something wrong with the game's injury model.

I'm at a point now where I just want to go back to the good old days and do self editing. I really want to avoid that, but I'm seriouly considering putting all of the really good hitters and hitting spects injury proneness to practically zero. (And I don't want to set the injury setting too low; I really do want realisitic injuries!)

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Do you include Lidle and Adenhart in those since they were off the field (and fatal)?

I'll just quote the two relevant posts from the other thread:

Originally Posted by injury log

I think there are a few more CEIs in real baseball than some may think. Matt Mantei and Brian Anderson both retired due to injury during the same Spring Training last year. Juan Encarnacion's fractured eye socket in '07 was surely career ending. Adam Loewen retired from pitching due to injury last year. Mike Matheny's post-concussion syndrome in '06 was career ending, and Corey Koskie's post-concussion syndrome in the same season could (debatably, since he attempted to come back, though he hasn't played a professional game since) be described similarly. This season Hong-Chih Kuo is saying he will retire if he needs another surgery. Finally, some players' careers, and sometimes lives, are ended off-field - Josh Hancock and Nick Adenhart, for example, and it's unclear whether Juan Lara will again pitch professionally. Of course, it's debatable whether OOTP should even attempt to model such events.

Those are examples only from the last three years, and those are only the ones I can remember off-hand. Still, it's possible to customize the injuries.txt file to reduce or eliminate the number of CEIs. The format of injuries.txt has changed this year, but I'll try to produce a version of the file at some point that will lower or eliminate CEIs in case people want such a file. You can quite easily do this yourself; the injuries.txt file is a simple text document, and contains a column called 'CEI boolean'. If the numbers in that column are all set to '0', you should not see any CEIs in your game. Of course you should always save a backup of the file before making any changes in case of a mistake.

Originally Posted by jar2574

Quick google search for modern career enders: Schilling's shoulder injury, reported February 2008 as a career ender. Belle's arthritic hip. Back injury for Eric Chavez reported May 2009 could end his career.

[...]

Even with famous guys, we don't know for sure about the return about Smoltz and Duchscherer. Guys like that, you expect to make it back to the majors, but sometimes they have setbacks. If they don't make it back, you'll see news about both of them. But what about #3 and #4 starters in the same boat who are trying to make it back? Might not hear much about their rehab struggles.

[SackAttack]

Key word there is 'could.'

You see all kinds of injuries that 'could' end careers, and even some that seem obvious in retrospect, but you almost always see the player at least make an effort unless the doctor says 'you would be risking your life.'

[injury log]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Key word there is 'could.'

Key word where? Five of the players I listed had instant CEIs, in the sense of an old-style OOTP CEI, and I'm not counting the fatalities. I agree there are still a few too many CEIs in OOTP, but I don't think they should be removed completely.

[seadog75]

InjuryLog, you seem to be the authority on OOTPX injuries, so what do you think of my findings? I know you guys are having fun bantering about CEIs, but I'd like to get a response on why the number of serious injuries to hitters seems to be so out of whack. The game, as it is, is unplayable for me right now. I'm not alone and this is the first time I've experienced unplayability with OOTP. Am I missing something? I'm really at a loss here.

[Theonlystd]

this was linked into Rob Neyers blog today..


People might find this interesting about injuries

Dissecting the Disabled List by Team, Position, Year andInjury - Beyond the Box Score

[injury log]

Originally Posted by seadog75

InjuryLog, you seem to be the authority on OOTPX injuries, so what do you think of my findings? I know you guys are having fun bantering about CEIs, but I'd like to get a response on why the number of serious injuries to hitters seems to be so out of whack. The game, as it is, is unplayable for me right now. I'm not alone and this is the first time I've experienced unplayability with OOTP. Am I missing something? I'm really at a loss here.

I agree with you, as I've said in a couple of other threads. In 2007, 74% of injuries lasting 3 months or longer were to pitchers; long injuries to batters are relatively rare. It's an issue that was being worked on during beta, and while it was improved, it didn't quite get there. The first patch for the game will be out soon, and I'm hoping this issue gets fixed for that.

[seadog75]

Originally Posted by injury log

I agree with you, as I've said in a couple of other threads. In 2007, 74% of injuries lasting 3 months or longer were to pitchers; long injuries to batters are relatively rare. It's an issue that was being worked on during beta, and while it was improved, it didn't quite get there. The first patch for the game will be out soon, and I'm hoping this issue gets fixed for that.

OK, cool. I think I read somewhere that you said that, but I guess I thought it wouldn't be this bad, lol. Do you know if it was coded just straight 50-50 chance between pitchers and batters? That would make sense since I get about a 40 to 60 ratio between pitchers and batters. Taking into account there's about that ratio on each team's major league roster, then the split seems to be a 50-50 chance.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by seadog75

OK, cool. I think I read somewhere that you said that, but I guess I thought it wouldn't be this bad, lol. Do you know if it was coded just straight 50-50 chance between pitchers and batters? That would make sense since I get about a 40 to 60 ratio between pitchers and batters. Taking into account there's about that ratio on each team's major league roster, then the split seems to be a 50-50 chance.

It's a bit more complex than that. On each type of play (pitching, running, throwing, collision, HBP, etc) there is a chance of injury, and those probabilities are different for each play type. Then, when the game decides an injury occurs, it needs to look at the injury database to find a suitable diagnosis, so what's present in injuries.txt also can affect durations and frequencies. It's certainly fixable, but unfortunately it's not as straightforward as adjusting one number in a line of code somewhere. In general, there probably needs to be a blanket reduction in the probabilities of batter-type injuries (while fielding, running, etc), along with a couple of other changes.