Welp, time for another........

Left-handed Badger · 08-29-2007, 02:49 AM

......Who really should have won the MVP.

Should have been A) the actual winner

RF for Dodgers (588 AB .321-44-143 109 Runs 189 Hits 1.011 OPS)

Or B) this guy

3B for Phillies ( 618 AB .324-37-131 154 Runs 200 Hits .954 OPS)

Other things I should mention: Dodgers were a mediocre 3rd place in the West around .500 and the Phillies won the East with 90+ wins (though they did get sweeped in the division series) and the 3B isnt particularly a good fielder .926 FA 23 Errors but he was in the hunt for a Triple Crown until midseason (when is AVG sunk like a stone for about 3 weeks)

I know who I would have voted for but I'll ask you guys just the same.

Note: Though these award things are fun debate (a la as in real life some years)

Note: I also should mention as a side note that the 3B in question was traded by SF the previous offseason for we shall say squat.

SDtwin · 08-29-2007, 04:01 AM

That's a tough one. Did either one of them have any stolen bases? They both make pretty good cases for themselves, and I just wanted to know if there was anymore info that could help.

Left-handed Badger · 08-29-2007, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDtwin

That's a tough one. Did either one of them have any stolen bases? They both make pretty good cases for themselves, and I just wanted to know if there was anymore info that could help.

I think the 3B had 1. Not sure about the Dodger RF I'll go and check real quick.

Alright just checked the RF had 5 steals. 5 to 1 not much of a factor. I also checked BB and K too. the RF walked more 91-75 and struck out less 129-95.

swishbish33 · 08-29-2007, 04:49 AM

Probably accurate since real-life voters are blinded by HRs...

Left-handed Badger · 08-29-2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swishbish33

Probably accurate since real-life voters are blinded by HRs...

True. Though I probably would have said the vote was accurate until I saw the 154 Runs.

That was frickin' insane. I did notice that the CF on the Phillies had 128 RBI on just 19 HR. I didnt pay attention to their batting order for that year. But, as a side note I bet that CF put that RBI total thanks in part to the 3B. But, a bit side note.

As a another side note. Another player I am tracking (a created LF, I always like to create a handful) is earning the nickname Suitcase. Throught the last 2 years he got traded both years on July 30. And all he has done in those 2 years was hit .310-.320 with a healthy OBP (about .380) he has also put up steal totals of 49 and 55. BUT, his HR totals were 2 and 3. So, nobody wants him. Despite the fact, that whatever team he goes to starts winning and the team he left starts losing, relatively speaking anyway. The 1st of the 3 teams he started on was TB. So, they basically went from a pace to lose 98 games to losing 108 at the end.

The computer does seem to take HRs too much into account. I have seen a coupleof players similar to the well-traveled LF, just disappear into the minors (I even started a thread couple weeks ago on one that won SB title and ROY, and was rewarded with an immediate demotion to AAA in the winter, because the team wanted FA power at his spot. That particular team went from a 97 win wildcard berth to a fight to avoid worse team in the league. (I must admit I smiled at that particular turn of events, if not for that ROY wasting away in AAA)

But, on the other hand chicks dig the longball right?

SDtwin · 08-29-2007, 05:31 AM

I still haven't figured out who I would vote for if I had the chance, but I love your story about the LF. I always try to have a guy with speed in my lineup, even if he has no power. If he can get on base and steal, I'll put him in. Even better if he plays great defense.

And yes, the long ball is overrated. Instant runs are nice, but I'll take a little small ball every now and then.

EDIT: After thinking it over, I vote for the 3B for one reason. DODGERS SUCK! Go Padres!!!

Elendil · 08-29-2007, 10:06 AM

Runs scored is only partly under the control of a player, though, so like RBI I don't really consider them when assessing a player's value. My guess is that these two players are very similar in VORP: the RF is clearly a better hitter, but replacement level in RF is probably quite a bit higher than at 3B. The 3B might even have an advantage in VORP. In that case, you have a conflict between who the best hitter is and who the most valuable hitter is. When I decided on HOY awards, I generally go with the former, unless someone has a significant advantage in VORP.

Lastplaneout · 08-29-2007, 10:19 AM

If the 3B was helping his team with his glove it would be an easy choice (B all the way). As it is, I would choose A.

Gastric ReFlux · 08-29-2007, 11:12 AM

Which one is gritty and which one is a slacker?

Raidergoo · 08-29-2007, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux

Which one is gritty and which one is a slacker?

Are they leaders? How about clutch? Anyone named Gload?

The more context given, the better the vote.

I'd vote player B...

Gyrodork · 08-29-2007, 12:24 PM

For me, MVP has always been about much more than statistics; although they obviously play a significant role. Unfortunately, in the real world, you only hear numbers quoted. Nothing about leadership, clutch performances, personal sacrafices, etc. And like a beauty pageant (you were wondering how I was going to fit that in, weren't you?!), a ballplayer's Beauty (value) is in the eye of the beholder. It's somewhat subjective. So I think any player with great stat's, who isn't a mental case, and who brings certain intangibles to the team and game, makes a legitimate MVP. Wow...I didn't know I was THAT interested!

Left-handed Badger · 08-30-2007, 06:04 AM

Well, I do know that the CF on the 3B's team drove in 129 RBIs on 18 HRs. So , maybe they split the vote between the 2.

The main reason apart from the Run total was that the Phillies made the playoffs while the Dodgers were a mediocre also-ran. Generally, in real life with awards. Tie would go to the guy on the contender normally. Plus, i should also mention the RF was on a FA year. So, he may have been motivated by other reasons.

Then again crazy wins are sometimes made in the MVP. I beleive 1950 Ted Williams had some freaky out of this world season (even for him) and they still gave it to Rizzuto (Boston media made grudge vote against Williams if I remember. So hey, maybe that 3B made some San Fran journalist mad on his way out from the trade to the Phillies. Though a Giant jounalist taking sides for a player for the Dodgers seems like some kind of deal with the devil.

Either way, they both deserved it, and if one of them was in the AL they actually probably would have won it as the winner in the AL was "mediocre" compared to the 2.

Left-handed Badger · 09-01-2007, 11:37 PM

Update: I found a place where the RF was exceptionally better. The next year after his MVP performance, he took a Gold Glove. That 3B probably want ever do that.

In fact since that time (1 whole year and to Aug 1 of another) the 3B has been somewhat invisible. His numbers have dropped off somewhat. He has been basically a .275-25-90 or so guy since then. Good, but dominant class.

As for that powerless LF. Well he just got traded again though he did nearly last 2 years with his 3rd team. Odd, he got traded in some ways. He was hitting about .380 at time of the trade in early July. Must have made him mad. AS August 1 he is hitting .399. Let's pull for him to reach the magic .400.

(And he has exactly 0 HRs, too)

Aww, man he dropped down to .386 (though he did pump up to hit a HR). And finished 2nd (yikes) in the batting race. That's rough, man.

Comedian2004 · 09-01-2007, 11:50 PM

IMHO, in close choices, I go for the one on the team that won the division or at least had a way better record.

Reasons:

1. They would not have won the division without this guy. He was the most valueable player on the team. (Of course, that is speculation)
2. The other guy was on a lousy team. Especially towards the end of the season when there was no chance for his team. He could swing for the single, instead of the HR his team needed to win the game.

It is the MVP award, and to me, it should be who was the most valueable player in the league.

An example, but I admit it is a bias example is happening in the AL this year. While A-Rod is having a killer season, if Mag wins the batting title AND the Tigers make the playoffs and the Yankees do not, then Mag deserves it.

Mag has also been solid all year. When the Chef was injured, like now, he has stepped up and became more of a power hitter. We all know, when you are swinging for the fences, your average will take a dip.

Another factor to throw into the bon-fire, is with all the talent ($$$) that the Yankees have on their team, they could have done it without A-Rod. The Yankees would be a contender without A-Rod in the line-up, but I don't think the Tigers would be a contender without Mag.

08-29-2007, 02:49 AM	#1
Left-handed Badger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 2,036	Welp, time for another........ ......Who really should have won the MVP. Should have been A) the actual winner RF for Dodgers (588 AB .321-44-143 109 Runs 189 Hits 1.011 OPS) Or B) this guy 3B for Phillies ( 618 AB .324-37-131 154 Runs 200 Hits .954 OPS) Other things I should mention: Dodgers were a mediocre 3rd place in the West around .500 and the Phillies won the East with 90+ wins (though they did get sweeped in the division series) and the 3B isnt particularly a good fielder .926 FA 23 Errors but he was in the hunt for a Triple Crown until midseason (when is AVG sunk like a stone for about 3 weeks) I know who I would have voted for but I'll ask you guys just the same. Note: Though these award things are fun debate (a la as in real life some years) Note: I also should mention as a side note that the 3B in question was traded by SF the previous offseason for we shall say squat. __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps Last edited by Left-handed Badger; 08-29-2007 at 02:52 AM.

08-29-2007, 05:31 AM	#6
SDtwin Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 406	I still haven't figured out who I would vote for if I had the chance, but I love your story about the LF. I always try to have a guy with speed in my lineup, even if he has no power. If he can get on base and steal, I'll put him in. Even better if he plays great defense. And yes, the long ball is overrated. Instant runs are nice, but I'll take a little small ball every now and then. EDIT: After thinking it over, I vote for the 3B for one reason. DODGERS SUCK! Go Padres!!! Last edited by SDtwin; 08-29-2007 at 05:32 AM.

08-29-2007, 10:06 AM	#7
Elendil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the dynasty forum Posts: 2,318	Runs scored is only partly under the control of a player, though, so like RBI I don't really consider them when assessing a player's value. My guess is that these two players are very similar in VORP: the RF is clearly a better hitter, but replacement level in RF is probably quite a bit higher than at 3B. The 3B might even have an advantage in VORP. In that case, you have a conflict between who the best hitter is and who the most valuable hitter is. When I decided on HOY awards, I generally go with the former, unless someone has a significant advantage in VORP. __________________ Heaven is kicking back with a double Talisker and a churchwarden stuffed with latakia.

08-29-2007, 12:24 PM	#11
Gyrodork Bat Boy Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 18	MVP's and Beauty Pageants For me, MVP has always been about much more than statistics; although they obviously play a significant role. Unfortunately, in the real world, you only hear numbers quoted. Nothing about leadership, clutch performances, personal sacrafices, etc. And like a beauty pageant (you were wondering how I was going to fit that in, weren't you?!), a ballplayer's Beauty (value) is in the eye of the beholder. It's somewhat subjective. So I think any player with great stat's, who isn't a mental case, and who brings certain intangibles to the team and game, makes a legitimate MVP. Wow...I didn't know I was THAT interested!

08-30-2007, 06:04 AM	#12
Left-handed Badger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 2,036	Well, I do know that the CF on the 3B's team drove in 129 RBIs on 18 HRs. So , maybe they split the vote between the 2. The main reason apart from the Run total was that the Phillies made the playoffs while the Dodgers were a mediocre also-ran. Generally, in real life with awards. Tie would go to the guy on the contender normally. Plus, i should also mention the RF was on a FA year. So, he may have been motivated by other reasons. Then again crazy wins are sometimes made in the MVP. I beleive 1950 Ted Williams had some freaky out of this world season (even for him) and they still gave it to Rizzuto (Boston media made grudge vote against Williams if I remember. So hey, maybe that 3B made some San Fran journalist mad on his way out from the trade to the Phillies. Though a Giant jounalist taking sides for a player for the Dodgers seems like some kind of deal with the devil. Either way, they both deserved it, and if one of them was in the AL they actually probably would have won it as the winner in the AL was "mediocre" compared to the 2. __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps

08-29-2007, 04:01 AM	#2
SDtwin Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 406	That's a tough one. Did either one of them have any stolen bases? They both make pretty good cases for themselves, and I just wanted to know if there was anymore info that could help.

08-29-2007, 04:49 AM	#4
swishbish33 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 117	Probably accurate since real-life voters are blinded by HRs...

08-29-2007, 11:12 AM	#9
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Which one is gritty and which one is a slacker?

09-01-2007, 11:37 PM	#13
Left-handed Badger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 2,036	Update: I found a place where the RF was exceptionally better. The next year after his MVP performance, he took a Gold Glove. That 3B probably want ever do that. In fact since that time (1 whole year and to Aug 1 of another) the 3B has been somewhat invisible. His numbers have dropped off somewhat. He has been basically a .275-25-90 or so guy since then. Good, but dominant class. As for that powerless LF. Well he just got traded again though he did nearly last 2 years with his 3rd team. Odd, he got traded in some ways. He was hitting about .380 at time of the trade in early July. Must have made him mad. AS August 1 he is hitting .399. Let's pull for him to reach the magic .400. (And he has exactly 0 HRs, too) Aww, man he dropped down to .386 (though he did pump up to hit a HR). And finished 2nd (yikes) in the batting race. That's rough, man. __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps Last edited by Left-handed Badger; 09-02-2007 at 05:52 AM.

09-01-2007, 11:50 PM	#14
Comedian2004 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In a house in Saint Cloud, Florida. Posts: 7,085	IMHO, in close choices, I go for the one on the team that won the division or at least had a way better record. Reasons: 1. They would not have won the division without this guy. He was the most valueable player on the team. (Of course, that is speculation) 2. The other guy was on a lousy team. Especially towards the end of the season when there was no chance for his team. He could swing for the single, instead of the HR his team needed to win the game. It is the MVP award, and to me, it should be who was the most valueable player in the league. An example, but I admit it is a bias example is happening in the AL this year. While A-Rod is having a killer season, if Mag wins the batting title AND the Tigers make the playoffs and the Yankees do not, then Mag deserves it. Mag has also been solid all year. When the Chef was injured, like now, he has stepped up and became more of a power hitter. We all know, when you are swinging for the fences, your average will take a dip. Another factor to throw into the bon-fire, is with all the talent ($$$) that the Yankees have on their team, they could have done it without A-Rod. The Yankees would be a contender without A-Rod in the line-up, but I don't think the Tigers would be a contender without Mag. __________________ Like BLUES? Visit www.smokestacklightnin.com, you will LOVE it! New show every Monday!! New Blues HOF![/COLOR][/FONT]