BUG (2.0.1.43) - Trade AI - Can easily rip off computer teams

[dim13]

I found a major flaw when trading against computer teams. If the 1st player on the list of player you want to receive from the other team is acceptable, you can aquire players of much greater value when adding players after the 1st acceptable player on the list. Commissioner Mode is OFF. Here's an example:

- I want to aquire (MR) Glenn Heizer from the 'Bee Ridge Bees'.

1) I first offered (MR) Curtis Sul for (MR) Glenn Heizer - 'Complete Trade' button is ghosted.
- screenshot: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/1.JPG

2) I remove (MR) Glenn Heizer from the other team's list in the trade and replace with a lower quality player (SP) BJ Critterton - 'Complete Trade' button is now activated and I can complete the trade if I wanted to.
- screenshot: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/2.JPG

3) I don't complete the trade yet, I add back the player I wanted in the first attempt (MR) Glenn Heizer to the trade along with (SP) BJ Critterton - the 'Complete Trade' button is still active and I can complete the trade if I wanted to (contrary to my first attempt).
- screenshot: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/3.JPG

4) It gets worse for the computer team, I can proceed to add up to 8 more good quality players (10 total) to receive for my 1 player who isn't good at all - contrary to my 1st offer/attempt.
- screenshot: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/4.JPG

NOTES: Commissioner Mode is turned OFF, Finance/Salary turned OFF.
- I also tried to trade (MR) Curtis Sul for (MR) Glenn Heizer straight up - hitting the 'Submit' button. The proposal was rejected.

I uploaded my data files: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim2.zip

To reproduce this bug:

Go to the trade screen (my teams is called 'Mikloshville Crows' - Level 10 League). Select the 'Bee Ridge Bees' to trade with.

1) Offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (MR) Glenn Heizer - 'Complete Trade' button will be ghosted out

2) Offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (SP) BJ Critterton - 'Complete Trade' button will be activated.

3) Offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (SP) BJ Critterton AND (MR) Glenn Heizer (I have Glenn Heizer listed #2 - but believe order doesn't matter) - 'Complete Trade' button will be still be activated.

4) You can then add 8 more good players to aquire - not any player you want, but about 50% of them.

Version: 2.0.1.43
PC/MAC: PC
Commissioner Mode: OFF

League files uploaded: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim2.zip

Supporting screenshots:
ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/1.JPG
ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/2.JPG
ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/3.JPG
ftp://ftp.sigames.com/ootp/game-save/dim13/4.JPG

[Killebrew]

I posted that issue during preview, I believe the response was to implement house rules. Hopefully this loophole is removed in a future patch, it is a problem for solo gamers anyway. What I suggested at that time was that the AI back out of any accepted trade whenever the user changes the accepted trade.

[dim13]

Do you recall what house rules were suggested ? Thanks.

[treedom]

Originally Posted by dim13

Do you recall what house rules were suggested ? Thanks.

Don't try to rip off the AI by using exploits.

[Mets Man]

I don't think that this problem should simply be ignored however easy it may sound to avoid.

This could be a serious problem for solo gamers because think about it, how would you know when you are exploiting the AI? Yes, if you noticed that the trade wasn't accepted initially, then all of a sudden accepted after changing the order of the players, then obviously you could avoid it. But what if you put the "exploitive" order of players in the very beginning when you first initiated the trade? You can't expect people to have to place every player in a different order just to make sure that they're not "exploiting" the AI????????

I wouldn't simply ignore this as a "don't exploit the AI then" problem. You could be exploiting the AI and not even know it in this case.

[Killebrew]

Originally Posted by dim13

Do you recall what house rules were suggested ? Thanks.

I don't think any were specifically offered, but if I was playing it solo I'd use these house rules for trades:
1. Don't use the shop around feature. No matter who or what I offered I always found some good prospects being offered in return.
2. Once the AI accepts a trade, no more tweaking the deal (meaning don't top off the trade in your favor with 5 more of his prospects added after he accepts )

Note: I was using the default AI trade settings, not sure how good the AI is on higher levels.

[marc420]

They want $35 for this game, then tell you to fix the problems yourself by "house rules". Friggin amazing!!!!!!

Oh well, my trip to the website to see if buying OOTP2007 would be as bad a rip-off as OOTP2006 was is now complete. Maybe if you're lucky I might check again next year.

[Mets Man]

Originally Posted by Killebrew

I don't think any were specifically offered, but if I was playing it solo I'd use these house rules for trades:
1. Don't use the shop around feature. No matter who or what I offered I always found some good prospects being offered in return.
2. Once the AI accepts a trade, no more tweaking the deal (meaning don't top off the trade in your favor with 5 more of his prospects added after he accepts )

Note: I was using the default AI trade settings, not sure how good the AI is on higher levels.

I personally like the idea of your "house rule", I always wanted to implement this myself. But I think the biggest problem with every version of OOTP in this area is that as you are pulling your deal together, each player you add (on either side) the AI evaluates the deal and gives you feedback on it, as if you are asking each time you add a player (DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS DEAL?). Do you know what I mean?

If any of you have played Baseball Mogul, you would know what I mean about the alternative way to do it (not to say BM is better of course). In OOTP 2007 (and every other version) you know how you start a trade by adding players, each time you add a player, the AI GM gives you feedback on the trade after each player you add as if that's the final deal you are asking for. In every version of Baseball Mogul, you add players, but you are not "officially" asking the AI GM whether he wants to take it or not until you press the "Submit Button". And you can't cheat B.Mogul in this way by pressing the "Submit Button" after every player you add because the AI holds it against you for asking too many trade demands (particular low ball ones), so you have to make sure that the deals you ask for are serious and reasonable ones (doesn't mean the AI will stop dealing with you completely, but if you keep getting them mad, they'll increase their trade demands each time).

The best part about B.Mogul is that you can't pull out of "submitted trade demands" without consequence. So whenever you ask the AI GM whether he'll take a deal (by pressing the submit button) you can't pull out of the deal unless you want the AI GM to get a little bit angry at you (consequence). So everytime you get feedback from the AI GM, you are risking something. You can't simply reveal the AI GM's hand (feedback) for free. The cost is, the deal that you propose is the one you have to accept unless you want the AI GM getting angry at you (leading to higher trade demands the next time you ask)

[Mets Man]

Killebrew, I'm curious, how do you get around the AI giving you feedback each time you add a player to the deal? (see my above reply first)

Do you decide beforehand, what your deal is going to be? Or do you consciously try hard not to look at the feedback before you are done completing your whole deal?

If you think about it, its pretty pointless to do this because the AI in OOTP doesn't penalize you for asking them for any offer (no matter how ridiculous). So its like you could always start low, then subsequently keep asking for more little by little.

[vesuvius]

This should really be addressed. I discovered this bug today playing in my solo league, well after I had unknowingly used it a couple times to rip off the comp. I remember being like..."wow that is kind of surprising" on a couple trades, but didn't put 2 and 2 together until I did it a couple times.

[CaLíKrAzY]

I had an instance of something like this happen, where I was trying to aquire a dude from the trade block. I gave a better guy then I proceeded to dump their prospects on the window to see who I wanted but the "accept trade" wasn't greyed out.

Not a big deal but could be if multiple players are dropped into windows trying to restructure your deal not even knowing your getting the upper hand everytime even in smaller deals.

[Mets Man]

I think we need a TT on this, could somebody offer some assistance?

[endgame]

I'm still a little confused with why the Complete Trade option is made available and not the Submit Trade option. Is this in the Winter Meetings? Did I miss that?

[Mets Man]

Originally Posted by endgame

I'm still a little confused with why the Complete Trade option is made available and not the Submit Trade option. Is this in the Winter Meetings? Did I miss that?

In OOTP 2007, the "Submit Trade" button works a little different than in Baseball Mogul. "Submit Trade" button in OOTP is basically to "officially" propose the deal. I mean you are technically asking the AI GM every time you add a player to the deal, however you are not actually going through with the trade until you press the "Submit Trade" button. Also, I've had this happen once, but sometimes the feedback you receive isn't an exact science. Sometimes you could "Submit a Trade" on a deal that is close but not quite there, and the CPU will think about it and actually accept the deal a few days later. The "Submit Trade" button appears to be the best way to get the most value on a deal, however it will take much longer and be much harder to find a perfect deal since you have to wait several days to get feedback (except during Winter Meetings)

On the other hand, the "Complete Trade" button is to complete a deal immediately because you offered something that was above what the CPU AI would actually take (or you could say exactly what the CPU AI is willing to take). I'm not sure what Markus intended, but I am personally starting to second guess whether I've got the right trade difficulty setting. Right now, I've got it set to Hard and I pretty much try to "Complete Trade" for every deal rather than wait for the "Submit Trade" response. However, perhaps Markus intended it so that if you want to make a fair deal, you should have to go through the tedious and time-filled process of "Submit Trade" but if you want a rush immediate deal, you could offer a bit more and "Complete Trade" now.

So maybe the Very Hard setting is more what I'm looking for. I understand with this setting you can't really get a fair deal with "Complete Trade", but I figure we're not trying hard enough and not utilizing the "Submit Trade" button enough.

Let me just ask anybody out there, do you more often use "Complete Trade" to make a trade or "Submit Trade"? I'm willing to bet that most people use "Complete Trade" because this is how its always worked in OOTP prior to 2006.

[Mets Man]

Just to make things clear,

When you press "Submit Trade" you don't get an immediate response from the AI GM. You usually have to wait several days for a response (during Winter Meetings this happens a little faster). So you have to sim a few days forward to see if the deal is accepted and completed.

When you press "Complete Trade" it means that the deal was overwhelmingly acceptable and the AI GM is willing to take the deal now (immediately), so the deal will be completed right then and there. No need to sim a few days forward.

[james17]

1) This bug should be fixed in a patch if at all possible.

2) On the other hand, I would not want to see the A/I trading limit you to adding money or additional players to a deal after the A/I accepts a trade. The A/I is pretty tough at trading even at normal levels now and the ability to add more players or cash to an acceptable deal seems like a normal aspect of the 'horsetrading' two GMs would engage in.

[Ksyrup]

After reading this thread, I tried to make this happen and couldn't. I thought I did it wrong, but no, after re-reading it, I did it right but it didn't work. If I'm reading the original post right, I think the key thing was the underneath part of the original post - when I added back the original player the AI wouldn't trade, he didn't stay "underneath" the lesser player on the trade screen. He went to the top of the list, no matter where I physically tried to place him, and the button remained ghosted. Hm.

[dim13]

After further tests, I found it doesn't matter who is underneath whom in the trade list. As long as an acceptable player is involed in the trade from the other team, you can proceed in adding up to 9 more good quality player you want to receive in the trade.

A revision of my previous example:

- I want to aquire (MR) Glenn Heizer from the other team:

1) I offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (MR) Glenn Heizer - 'Complete Trade' button will be ghosted out. (won't even be accepted if I use the 'Submit' button - tried this).

2) I remove (MR) Glenn Heizer from the other team and add (SP) BJ Critterton instead. The offer stands as (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (SP) BJ Critterton - 'Complete Trade' button will be activated and I can complete trade if I wanted to.

3) Instead I offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - both (SP) BJ Critterton AND (MR) Glenn Heizer (I found that the order doesn't actually matter) - 'Complete Trade' button will be still be activated. Now I can get (MR) Glenn Heizer contrary to my first attempt in #1.

** The major problem here is, I may feel I should get more than just (SP) BJ Critterton in return, but since I can now get almost any player I want from the other team (because BJ was an acceptable player in the trade) - I have absolutely no way of knowing which players I can add in the trade to aquire without ripping the computer team off.

4) I can add 8 more good players to receive in the trade (10 total) - not any player you want, but about 50% of them. The computer team doesn't seem to care, as long as (SP) BJ Critterton is part of the trade (because he was an acceptable player to trade away). It's like, as long as you take this player off our hands, you can have anyone else you want in the trade (I have finance turned off - salary is not a factor)

** The key here is the computer team accepted to trade away (SP) BJ Critterton, and doesn't seem to care who else it has on the list they are about to trade away to my team (for my 1 player).

The 'Complete Trade' button will be be activated, and the 'Submit' button is ghosted out - which only leaves you with the option of completing the trade instead of submitting, and of course backing out all together.

This really needs to be fixed !!! The way the game stands now, if you want to receive more than 1 player in the trade - there is absolutely no way of knowing if you are ripping off the computer team or not.

This flaw/loophole also applies to trades that were submitted using the submitted button and then accepted - you can proceed to add many more player to receive in the trade with the 'Complete Trade' button remaining activated.

[Mets Man]

Originally Posted by dim13

After further tests, I found it doesn't matter who is underneath whom in the trade list. As long as an acceptable player is involed in the trade from the other team, you can proceed in adding up to 9 more good quality player you want to receive in the trade.

A revision of my previous example:

- I want to aquire (MR) Glenn Heizer from the other team:

1) I offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (MR) Glenn Heizer - 'Complete Trade' button will be ghosted out. (won't even be accepted if I use the 'Submit' button - tried this).

2) I remove (MR) Glenn Heizer from the other team and add (SP) BJ Critterton instead. The offer stands as (MR) Curtis Sul - for - (SP) BJ Critterton - 'Complete Trade' button will be activated and I can complete trade if I wanted to.

3) Instead I offer (MR) Curtis Sul - for - both (SP) BJ Critterton AND (MR) Glenn Heizer (I found that the order doesn't actually matter) - 'Complete Trade' button will be still be activated. Now I can get (MR) Glenn Heizer contrary to my first attempt in #1.

** The major problem here is, I may feel I should get more than just (SP) BJ Critterton in return, but since I can now get almost any player I want from the other team (because BJ was an acceptable player in the trade) - I have absolutely no way of knowing which players I can add in the trade to aquire without ripping the computer team off.

4) I can add 8 more good players to receive in the trade (10 total) - not any player you want, but about 50% of them. The computer team doesn't seem to care, as long as (SP) BJ Critterton is part of the trade (because he was an acceptable player to trade away). It's like, as long as you take this player off our hands, you can have anyone else you want in the trade (I have finance turned off - salary is not a factor)

** The key here is the computer team accepted to trade away (SP) BJ Critterton, and doesn't seem to care who else it has on the list they are about to trade away to my team (for my 1 player).

The 'Complete Trade' button will be be activated, and the 'Submit' button is ghosted out - which only leaves you with the option of completing the trade instead of submitting, and of course backing out all together.

This really needs to be fixed !!! The way the game stands now, if you want to receive more than 1 player in the trade - there is absolutely no way of knowing if you are ripping off the computer team or not.

This flaw/loophole also applies to trades that were submitted using the submitted button and then accepted - you can proceed to add many more player to receive in the trade with the 'Complete Trade' button remaining activated.

Is the problem your experiencing, the same as this problem here:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=145282

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Mets Man

Let me just ask anybody out there, do you more often use "Complete Trade" to make a trade or "Submit Trade"? I'm willing to bet that most people use "Complete Trade" because this is how its always worked in OOTP prior to 2006.

Huh. That's interesting. In the trials runs with this version and now that my season has started, I can honestly say I have almost exclusively used the Submit Trade selection. Only once, that I can remember, was the Complete Trade option made available to me.