Suggestion re Lineup/Rotation Management Issues

Ksyrup · 04-13-2007, 08:41 AM

The way I play the game, I want to be GM and allow the AI to control the day-to-day roster moves for my team. Setting lineups, pitching rotations, etc. I'll give the AI the players to use, he plays them.

Well, most of the time. Occasionally, I'll have an idea in mind for a move that should be made on the team that the AI doesn't quite "get." For instance, I might have an aging, underperforming 3B that I want to dump and let my AAA 3B get some playing time to see how he works out. If I make the move, get rid of the aging 3B and bring up the rookie, my experience has been that the AI will often go out of its way to play vets over rookies if it has any conceivable way of doing that with the players on the roster. I have the management style set to neutral, btw, because my team is otherwise competitive and I'm not looking for a wholesale cahnge of vets to rookies in my lineup, just this particular position.

The AI never figures out what I want to do, so I end up having to take over the entire management of the team on a day-to-day basis. I don't want to do that. So, to fix this dilemma, what I propose is something similar to what Front Office Football has - the ability to "freeze" certain positions, yet still allow the AI to fill in the rest of the lineup as it sees fit. In FOF, you just click a check mark next to the player's name that you manually inserted into the lineup (for instance, you want to start a rookie QB over the vet, when the AI would start the vet), and the depth chart and other positions are still filled by the AI, while you're changes are also implemented.

This would go a long way toward making the game easier and more fun for some of us to play. The "all or nothing" aspect of it right now is frustrating, particularly since I want to quick sim and have no desire to manage the roster each day, yet I want the roster moves I'm making to be implemented and not just wasted. I hope this is something that is feasible and Markus could look at adding in a future patch.

Neags23 · 04-13-2007, 09:00 AM

What if you put the rookie as the starter on the depth chart? The AI still plays the vet?

Also, there's a setting in team strategy that you could play with: Favor Veterans vs. Favor Prospects. I know you said you're not in a rebuilding mode, but playing with that slider may make some difference.

Ksyrup · 04-13-2007, 09:05 AM

If I manually make the change but the AI has the authority to handle the lineups and pitching staff, yes, he overrules my choice every time.

I addressed the other by saying that I don't want the AI to turn me into a rebuilding team, I just want certain players to be changed. And it might not be as simple as a vet vs. rookie issue, anyway. I might want to switch my spot starter for a guy in my rotation to give him a shot because the SP isn't pitching effectively, but the AI will overrule that unless I take control of the lineups/pitching staff. It's an either/or issue, and there's no in between that I can see.

Neags23 · 04-13-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If I manually make the change but the AI has the authority to handle the lineups and pitching staff, yes, he overrules my choice every time.

If you've got a guy on the depth chart as the starter, and he gets far less playing time than the backup, I would think that has to be a bug. What is the starting status for the guy's backup? Maybe try playing without giving the rookie a backup.

Edit: Although... now that I think about it, if you've got the AI making managing/depth chart moves, the AI could change that. Okay, I see what you're saying. Hm. Okay. I don't know.

Ksyrup · 04-16-2007, 08:49 AM

I just wanted to bump this because right now, interface issues aside, this is the biggest issue I'm having with the game, which I'm really enjoying. But, it's pretty much impossible for me to play OOTP2K7 on a macro level, acting solely as the GM, without feeling like I have absolutely no control over my team and/or the AI manager is essentially wasting the moves I make (by not putting guys into the spots I want them to be in). I'm essentially forced to micro-manage my team to make sure that when I trade my aging 3B and bring up a rookie to get some playing time, the AI doesn't just insert the crappy backup 3B into the lineup instead.

This game desperately needs a freeze function that allows us to put certain players in certain spots that the AI can't change, but still allows the AI to make the rest of the moves. Usually, I don't have a huge issue with the majority of moves the AI makes, but even 1 problem, and I've got to take over myself, because any moves I make the AI just overrules immediately.

statsmonger · 04-16-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

...my experience has been that the AI will often go out of its way to play vets over rookies if it has any conceivable way of doing that with the players on the roster.

I'd try going to each minor league affiliate's "Strategy" page and move the top Overall Roster Strategy bar closer to "Favor Prospects". I have it all the way over, and although I'm in control of minor league lineups and transactions, I generally just "Ask Manager for All Lineups", and it puts any prospects on the roster in the lineups and rotations, even putting the highest-star reliever in potential in the closer role.

Joe Shlabotnick · 04-17-2007, 08:44 AM

Ksyrup, I echo what you are saying!

I am still searching for "my" way of playing this game. I know it's out there, but I haven't found it yet. I find myself micro-managing individual games, but getting a bit bored because I'm also a video-game player, and I'm used to seeing my games played out.

So the idea of playing this game as a "GM only" is very appealing to me. But I too have had problems getting lineups to stay the way I set them.

When the Depth Chart says to play a substitute when the "starter is tired," what exactly does "tired" mean? 99%? 90%?

SandMan · 04-17-2007, 09:13 AM

I simply look at it this way when I GM a team and have a the AI manage. I hire the manager and let him Manage his way. I only get him the players if he plays them it is not my job to over rule him. I'll just fire his a$$ at the end of the season. In real life I don't think the GM decides the lineups so I just accept what the game gives me.

swampdragon · 04-17-2007, 09:23 AM

If you sim slowly you can do this. Go to the lineup page and make it however you want. Then use the option "Make depth chart based on this lineup." Then play the game. The computer manager will use that lineup. It revisits the issue every few days, though, so you have to interfere pretty frequently. Eventually it will use that lineup without your input.

BradS · 04-17-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

I simply look at it this way when I GM a team and have a the AI manage. I hire the manager and let him Manage his way. I only get him the players if he plays them it is not my job to over rule him. I'll just fire his a$$ at the end of the season. In real life I don't think the GM decides the lineups so I just accept what the game gives me.

Interesting. Would a different Manager (AI) have a different philosophy. Does the AI Manager reflect a difference in Manager types?

RchW · 04-17-2007, 10:41 AM

I use 7-day lineups and it seems to help remove me a little bit from the day to day stuff. I still like to set the basic batting order because the AI sucks at choosing leadoff, 3rd place and cleanup hitters IMO. The other nice thing about 7-day is that you can look ahead and put another player in for a day to day injury without screwing around with your set lineup.

Generally I sim a week at a time sometimes 2 weeks. I alternate using "subs allowed" or "no subs allowed" on the 7-day lineup screen. If you have "no subs allowed" all the time your players will tire out.

You can also massage the depth chart to exclude or include different players. Using both gives me a say in the season use of players but not in the day to day use. For example I generally set the backup catcher to play one game a week or 10 days.

The AI substitution pattern is better in this version. Previously if your catcher hitting cleanup was tired the sub went into the cleanup spot. I find that the sub now ends up in sixth or lower unless he has power ratings. That is more realistic.

Just my

ShermLollar · 04-17-2007, 10:59 AM

As I get acquainted with OOTP2007, I'm finding that I get the most enjoyment playing as GM only and letting the manager and his on-field staff perform the roles they were hired for. This has resulted in some of the same frustrations as those experienced by Ksyrup. I've taken the same approach as SandMan. I provide the players and the manager uses them as he sees fit. I try to hire managers that have a managerial tendency that I tend to agree with, but that is easier said than done.

In this fictional world, I have the feeling that there are really no lines of communication between the GM and the field manager. He's going to play who he wants to play, period. I'm sure in real life, the GM and manager are talking constantly about the team's makeup and player utilization. As best as I can tell, this level of sophistication may not yet exist within the game. It would be nice, however, if the GM had "some" input into player usage when playing strictly as a GM. It seems that being able to "freeze" a player in the lineup might be a way to allow the GM a little more say in the matter.

I think that just being able to think about the game at this level of detail is a tribute to the game as a whole. This latest version of OOTP is amazing.

DougWyatt · 04-17-2007, 12:22 PM

Hmmm. My take is - if you want to be the GM; then be the GM & let your manager be the manager. If you want to be a GM/Manager; then you'll have to assume all the day to day responsibilities of a manager. I think it'd be difficult for a game to be your manager, have you interfere with its managing, and "know" what it can change and can't change.

That said. I did say "difficult"; yet possible.

A possible solution to this "problem". GM override lock boxes. Just a little box in the depth chart/pitching staff that allows a GM to check it, and it "locks" the player in that spot - and the AI manager works around/with it.

Sinclair · 04-17-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Hmmm. My take is - if you want to be the GM; then be the GM & let your manager be the manager. If you want to be a GM/Manager; then you'll have to assume all the day to day responsibilities of a manager. I think it'd be difficult for a game to be your manager, have you interfere with its managing, and "know" what it can change and can't change.

That said. I did say "difficult"; yet possible.

Actually, it's not unusual at all for a GM to "strongly suggest" the Manager play a certain player. The most common example is when a GM signs an average FA to a large-ish contract (see: Mets, Shawn Green). Even if the team has a prospect that could be just as (or even more) productive (Lastings Milledge), the contract will dictate the playing time.

An even more GM-Sticks-Hands-in-Pot example is last year's Marlins. Girardi was told to start (I think it was?) Dan Uggla at second base, even though Joe G. was reluctant. In addition, there was at least one conflict between Girardi and the front office over a pitcher's role (Ricky Nolasco, I think?) - Girardi was forced by the front office to use him as a starter, when Joe wanted to start him off in middle relief.

CobaltJays · 04-17-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

So, to fix this dilemma, what I propose is something similar to what Front Office Football has - the ability to "freeze" certain positions, yet still allow the AI to fill in the rest of the lineup as it sees fit. In FOF, you just click a check mark next to the player's name that you manually inserted into the lineup (for instance, you want to start a rookie QB over the vet, when the AI would start the vet), and the depth chart and other positions are still filled by the AI, while you're changes are also implemented.

This is even a good idea for those of us who do like to control all aspects of the organization. I absolutely HATE filling out depth charts and lineups for my minor league teams, but I know what players I want playing certain positions. I prefer to just have the minor league manager fill in both the lineup and depth charts, but quite often the computer will use a player in a way that I don't want. That means I have to go in and manually make the appropriate changes. I have to do this several times a year due to all of the promotions/demotions that occur during the season. If I could lock in certain players at specific positions, it would be a big time saver.

Curtis · 04-17-2007, 03:40 PM

This is probably NOT an adequate solution, but what I do is edit my personnel to match my own desires. I do vary them a little from low minors to high minors to the show.

Ksyrup · 04-18-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

I simply look at it this way when I GM a team and have a the AI manage. I hire the manager and let him Manage his way. I only get him the players if he plays them it is not my job to over rule him. I'll just fire his a$$ at the end of the season. In real life I don't think the GM decides the lineups so I just accept what the game gives me.

IRL, if the GM is about to make a trade and bring up a rookie, I'm going to assume he has, at the least, notified the manager of what he is doing and told him he expects the rookie to play, and at best, discussed the decision to make the trade and bring up the rookie with the manager before it ever happens. In either scenario, the GM's moves have some bearing on what happens on the field. Here, all too often I feel like I'm making moves that the manager completely ignores, and at that point, I might as well not be playing.

I'm having to micro-manage and I'm able to play the game, but I want the ability to make specific overriding decisions when the manager isn't on the same page as me, so that my moves aren't for nothing. It is unreasonable to expect that there would be such disconnect between the front office and the manager/staff that I would provide a set of players in April, see the manager completely misuse them (start crap vets over rookies who would otherwise be in AAA, stick the closer in the starting rotation, etc.), not say a word until November, then hand him a pink slip and say, "Well, I gave you X players and you did Y with them, so out you go." It doesn't work like that.

I'm not even sure I understand what "I only get him the players if he plays them" means. How would you know that he would play a certain guy unless you first make the move and then see how your manager reacts to it?

I'm enjoying the game, but the "lock" or "freeze" button is something I'd love to see implemented.

jbmagic · 04-18-2007, 10:39 PM

You can set the 7 day lineup and have AI not mess with it.

ravinhood · 04-19-2007, 11:50 AM

Here is how I basically solved that issue. I'm not sure how you or if you observe your games. But, at the lineup screen just before the game starts I set all the settings to AI EXCEPT substitutions. I then start the game, immediately click on OPTIONS tab at the top and then set substitutions to the AI. This prevents the AI from changing my initial lineup or starting pitchers since the game has already started. I then continue the game turn off turn mode and watch the game play out itself with my lineup(s) and not the AI's.

Also, as someone else suggested each manager, coach, etc. has a strategy page that you can adjust sliders for how you want them to coach. This is a feature that by using trial an error I think you can come out with at least some of the features you are looking for. As by sliding defense vs offense might put your rookie player into the game providing he has some great fielding ratings. OBP vs AVG. Once again another slider that will look at a players potential for getting on base vs his average. There's a bunch of sliders to work with and tweak here that I believe would certainly have impact on the players chosen for your lineups and how often they are used. Veteran vs prospects. Move it gradually to the prospect side one click at a time observe what changes it makes. use the others and observe what they make then after you have observed them all come to a conclusion that works best for you and what you want your managers to do.

Ksyrup · 04-20-2007, 08:25 AM

I don't want to micro-manage, so I never look at the game screen. In my history with OOTP, which goes back at least 3 versions, I think I've even seen the in-game screen a handful of times, and not once with OOTP2K7. Not an option.

As far as the 7-day lineups, I don't want to override his other decisions that might be in the team's best interest, just make a general switch (deciding to go with the rookie over the vet, for instance) permanent. If I see that the rookie is struggling after a month, maybe I let the AI go back to the vet. But I don't see how restricting the AI for 7 days at a time really gets me to where I want to be.

In any event, I'm doing the best I can with the game as it is. I'm still enjoying it, but reiterate that this is something I hope can be added at some point.

04-13-2007, 08:41 AM	#1
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Suggestion re Lineup/Rotation Management Issues The way I play the game, I want to be GM and allow the AI to control the day-to-day roster moves for my team. Setting lineups, pitching rotations, etc. I'll give the AI the players to use, he plays them. Well, most of the time. Occasionally, I'll have an idea in mind for a move that should be made on the team that the AI doesn't quite "get." For instance, I might have an aging, underperforming 3B that I want to dump and let my AAA 3B get some playing time to see how he works out. If I make the move, get rid of the aging 3B and bring up the rookie, my experience has been that the AI will often go out of its way to play vets over rookies if it has any conceivable way of doing that with the players on the roster. I have the management style set to neutral, btw, because my team is otherwise competitive and I'm not looking for a wholesale cahnge of vets to rookies in my lineup, just this particular position. The AI never figures out what I want to do, so I end up having to take over the entire management of the team on a day-to-day basis. I don't want to do that. So, to fix this dilemma, what I propose is something similar to what Front Office Football has - the ability to "freeze" certain positions, yet still allow the AI to fill in the rest of the lineup as it sees fit. In FOF, you just click a check mark next to the player's name that you manually inserted into the lineup (for instance, you want to start a rookie QB over the vet, when the AI would start the vet), and the depth chart and other positions are still filled by the AI, while you're changes are also implemented. This would go a long way toward making the game easier and more fun for some of us to play. The "all or nothing" aspect of it right now is frustrating, particularly since I want to quick sim and have no desire to manage the roster each day, yet I want the roster moves I'm making to be implemented and not just wasted. I hope this is something that is feasible and Markus could look at adding in a future patch.

04-17-2007, 08:44 AM	#7
Joe Shlabotnick Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Row 12, Seat 7 Posts: 291	Ksyrup, I echo what you are saying! I am still searching for "my" way of playing this game. I know it's out there, but I haven't found it yet. I find myself micro-managing individual games, but getting a bit bored because I'm also a video-game player, and I'm used to seeing my games played out. So the idea of playing this game as a "GM only" is very appealing to me. But I too have had problems getting lineups to stay the way I set them. When the Depth Chart says to play a substitute when the "starter is tired," what exactly does "tired" mean? 99%? 90%? __________________ This space for rent.

04-17-2007, 09:23 AM	#9
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,506	If you sim slowly you can do this. Go to the lineup page and make it however you want. Then use the option "Make depth chart based on this lineup." Then play the game. The computer manager will use that lineup. It revisits the issue every few days, though, so you have to interfere pretty frequently. Eventually it will use that lineup without your input. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

04-17-2007, 10:41 AM	#11
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I use 7-day lineups and it seems to help remove me a little bit from the day to day stuff. I still like to set the basic batting order because the AI sucks at choosing leadoff, 3rd place and cleanup hitters IMO. The other nice thing about 7-day is that you can look ahead and put another player in for a day to day injury without screwing around with your set lineup. Generally I sim a week at a time sometimes 2 weeks. I alternate using "subs allowed" or "no subs allowed" on the 7-day lineup screen. If you have "no subs allowed" all the time your players will tire out. You can also massage the depth chart to exclude or include different players. Using both gives me a say in the season use of players but not in the day to day use. For example I generally set the backup catcher to play one game a week or 10 days. The AI substitution pattern is better in this version. Previously if your catcher hitting cleanup was tired the sub went into the cleanup spot. I find that the sub now ends up in sixth or lower unless he has power ratings. That is more realistic. Just my __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

04-19-2007, 11:50 AM	#19
ravinhood Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 374 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Here is how I basically solved that issue. I'm not sure how you or if you observe your games. But, at the lineup screen just before the game starts I set all the settings to AI EXCEPT substitutions. I then start the game, immediately click on OPTIONS tab at the top and then set substitutions to the AI. This prevents the AI from changing my initial lineup or starting pitchers since the game has already started. I then continue the game turn off turn mode and watch the game play out itself with my lineup(s) and not the AI's. Also, as someone else suggested each manager, coach, etc. has a strategy page that you can adjust sliders for how you want them to coach. This is a feature that by using trial an error I think you can come out with at least some of the features you are looking for. As by sliding defense vs offense might put your rookie player into the game providing he has some great fielding ratings. OBP vs AVG. Once again another slider that will look at a players potential for getting on base vs his average. There's a bunch of sliders to work with and tweak here that I believe would certainly have impact on the players chosen for your lineups and how often they are used. Veteran vs prospects. Move it gradually to the prospect side one click at a time observe what changes it makes. use the others and observe what they make then after you have observed them all come to a conclusion that works best for you and what you want your managers to do. Last edited by ravinhood; 04-19-2007 at 12:03 PM.

04-13-2007, 09:00 AM	#2
Neags23 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,577	What if you put the rookie as the starter on the depth chart? The AI still plays the vet? Also, there's a setting in team strategy that you could play with: Favor Veterans vs. Favor Prospects. I know you said you're not in a rebuilding mode, but playing with that slider may make some difference.

04-13-2007, 09:05 AM	#3
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	If I manually make the change but the AI has the authority to handle the lineups and pitching staff, yes, he overrules my choice every time. I addressed the other by saying that I don't want the AI to turn me into a rebuilding team, I just want certain players to be changed. And it might not be as simple as a vet vs. rookie issue, anyway. I might want to switch my spot starter for a guy in my rotation to give him a shot because the SP isn't pitching effectively, but the AI will overrule that unless I take control of the lineups/pitching staff. It's an either/or issue, and there's no in between that I can see.

04-16-2007, 08:49 AM	#5
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I just wanted to bump this because right now, interface issues aside, this is the biggest issue I'm having with the game, which I'm really enjoying. But, it's pretty much impossible for me to play OOTP2K7 on a macro level, acting solely as the GM, without feeling like I have absolutely no control over my team and/or the AI manager is essentially wasting the moves I make (by not putting guys into the spots I want them to be in). I'm essentially forced to micro-manage my team to make sure that when I trade my aging 3B and bring up a rookie to get some playing time, the AI doesn't just insert the crappy backup 3B into the lineup instead. This game desperately needs a freeze function that allows us to put certain players in certain spots that the AI can't change, but still allows the AI to make the rest of the moves. Usually, I don't have a huge issue with the majority of moves the AI makes, but even 1 problem, and I've got to take over myself, because any moves I make the AI just overrules immediately.

04-17-2007, 09:13 AM	#8
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	I simply look at it this way when I GM a team and have a the AI manage. I hire the manager and let him Manage his way. I only get him the players if he plays them it is not my job to over rule him. I'll just fire his a$$ at the end of the season. In real life I don't think the GM decides the lineups so I just accept what the game gives me.

04-17-2007, 10:59 AM	#12
ShermLollar Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 20	As I get acquainted with OOTP2007, I'm finding that I get the most enjoyment playing as GM only and letting the manager and his on-field staff perform the roles they were hired for. This has resulted in some of the same frustrations as those experienced by Ksyrup. I've taken the same approach as SandMan. I provide the players and the manager uses them as he sees fit. I try to hire managers that have a managerial tendency that I tend to agree with, but that is easier said than done. In this fictional world, I have the feeling that there are really no lines of communication between the GM and the field manager. He's going to play who he wants to play, period. I'm sure in real life, the GM and manager are talking constantly about the team's makeup and player utilization. As best as I can tell, this level of sophistication may not yet exist within the game. It would be nice, however, if the GM had "some" input into player usage when playing strictly as a GM. It seems that being able to "freeze" a player in the lineup might be a way to allow the GM a little more say in the matter. I think that just being able to think about the game at this level of detail is a tribute to the game as a whole. This latest version of OOTP is amazing.

04-17-2007, 12:22 PM	#13
DougWyatt All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,117	Hmmm. My take is - if you want to be the GM; then be the GM & let your manager be the manager. If you want to be a GM/Manager; then you'll have to assume all the day to day responsibilities of a manager. I think it'd be difficult for a game to be your manager, have you interfere with its managing, and "know" what it can change and can't change. That said. I did say "difficult"; yet possible. A possible solution to this "problem". GM override lock boxes. Just a little box in the depth chart/pitching staff that allows a GM to check it, and it "locks" the player in that spot - and the AI manager works around/with it.

04-17-2007, 03:40 PM	#16
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	This is probably NOT an adequate solution, but what I do is edit my personnel to match my own desires. I do vary them a little from low minors to high minors to the show.

04-18-2007, 10:39 PM	#18
jbmagic Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,417	You can set the 7 day lineup and have AI not mess with it.

04-20-2007, 08:25 AM	#20
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I don't want to micro-manage, so I never look at the game screen. In my history with OOTP, which goes back at least 3 versions, I think I've even seen the in-game screen a handful of times, and not once with OOTP2K7. Not an option. As far as the 7-day lineups, I don't want to override his other decisions that might be in the team's best interest, just make a general switch (deciding to go with the rookie over the vet, for instance) permanent. If I see that the rookie is struggling after a month, maybe I let the AI go back to the vet. But I don't see how restricting the AI for 7 days at a time really gets me to where I want to be. In any event, I'm doing the best I can with the game as it is. I'm still enjoying it, but reiterate that this is something I hope can be added at some point.