Whip

Zoso1515 · 04-11-2007, 05:01 PM

Since pitcher can't usually control hits against them (BABIP) and hits make up such a large part of WHIP, why do people still use it?

mikev · 04-11-2007, 05:27 PM

What would your alternative be?

treedom · 04-11-2007, 05:27 PM

CHAIN

mikev · 04-11-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treedom

CHAIN

I don't see how Caughtstealing, Hits, All star selections, Intentional walks, or No decisions really factor into how good a pitcher is.

bigdgp2 · 04-11-2007, 05:34 PM

I'd use HOlds, Base-on-Balls, Innings pitched, Total batters faced and Saves for my pitchers.

marc · 04-11-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

I'd use HOlds, Base-on-Balls, Innings pitched, Total batters faced and Saves for my pitchers.

Don't forget wins!

ihatenames · 04-11-2007, 06:16 PM

I use WHIP because BABIP only includes balls in play. Pitchers can control strikeouts and walks. Strikeout and BBs do have an direct influence on WHIP. Also teams can't score if people are not on base. WHIP to me is a good indicator of how effective a pitcher is.

Zoso1515 · 04-11-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

What would your alternative be?

I usually look at K/9, BB/9, HR/9 rates and sometimes (rarely) GB/FB ratio.

jbergey22 · 04-11-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoso1515

Since pitcher can't usually control hits against them (BABIP) and hits make up such a large part of WHIP, why do people still use it?

I would guess Greg Maddux in his prime would refute this argument. I am not saying WHIP ISN'T an over rated in compared to other similiar stats. I am debating your statement that pitchers "can't usually control hits against them"

lewis31lewis52 · 04-11-2007, 08:37 PM

But they can't really. They can control whether the pitch is hittable, but once it's hit, it's totally out of their hands where the ball goes.

Sven Draconian · 04-11-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewis31lewis52

But they can't really. They can control whether the pitch is hittable, but once it's hit, it's totally out of their hands where the ball goes.

Your taking that a bit too far. They do not have as much control, and luck is a large part, but good pitchers do exhibit some control.

Look at the first DIPs version of OOTP, Marcus had to add in some control to pitchers with high stuff (the stuff being the link is debateable) because he wasn't getting any pitchers varying outside the norm.

The base of Voros McCrakens work is that most pichers do not have as much control over hits as was once thought, and that K/BB/HR are far more consistant. That is different from saying they have no control

lewis31lewis52 · 04-11-2007, 08:55 PM

I'm not saying they're totally out of control, I'm saying that once the ball is hit, they can't really control if it lands safely or not.

DougWyatt · 04-11-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewis31lewis52

But they can't really. They can control whether the pitch is hittable, but once it's hit, it's totally out of their hands where the ball goes.

I disagree. Completely. Why do pitchers try to keep it down ? Especially with runners on ? .... To enduce ground balls. This is a good example. No, it's not 100% all the time true, but it isn't just a theory.

A pitcher can control BABIP to some extent. Location, speed, keepin' 'em guessin ... all these things contribute to how well a batter is going to hit a ball. Again, not 100%, all the time true - but certainly over the course of a season, it is evident.

Also, I think it's a great stat. I'm not sure what the point of this topic was. To me, by that line of thought - only the K and BB are relevant pitching stats.

Mike Donlin · 04-11-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

I disagree. Completely. Why do pitchers try to keep it down ? Especially with runners on ? .... To enduce ground balls. This is a good example. No, it's not 100% all the time true, but it isn't just a theory.

A pitcher can control BABIP to some extent. Location, speed, keepin' 'em guessin ... all these things contribute to how well a batter is going to hit a ball. Again, not 100%, all the time true - but certainly over the course of a season, it is evident.

Oh God not again. The argument is that if a pitcher reaches the majors, he (and every one of his peers) has become as good at controlling balls in play as they possibly can. After that, it's defense and luck.

marc · 04-11-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

Oh God not again. The argument is that if a pitcher reaches the majors, he (and every one of his peers) has become as good at controlling balls in play as they possibly can. After that, it's defense and luck.

Greg Maddux absolutlely obliterates this theory.

treedom · 04-11-2007, 10:46 PM

:slurpsoup:

DougWyatt · 04-11-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

Oh God not again. The argument is that if a pitcher reaches the majors, he (and every one of his peers) has become as good at controlling balls in play as they possibly can. After that, it's defense and luck.

Apparantly, I've stumbled on some old debate. I'll walk away

lol... nah, I'm curious.

So the thinking there, is that a pitcher should only be judged by K's and BBs, since that's all he can control - and all else is defense and luck ?

That's crazy talk to me.

Mike Donlin · 04-11-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Apparantly, I've stumbled on some old debate. I'll walk away

lol... nah, I'm curious.

So the thinking there, is that a pitcher should only be judged by K's and BBs, since that's all he can control - and all else is defense and luck ?

That's crazy talk to me.

K, BB, and HR, although HR are correlated with GB/FB%, and HR per FB is as much (roughly) a matter of luck and ballpark as skill.

jbergey22 · 04-11-2007, 11:44 PM

Carlos Silva must be very unlucky because he sure gives up a lot of hits per IP. Greg Maddux needs to play the lottery because he has been blessed with great luck his entire career.

I really dont want to discuss this topic but this theory completely blows conventional baseball wisdom out the door. Good location, good movement, pitch selection set the hitter up not for strikeouts but for weak ground balls or flyouts. This is controlled BY the pitcher making these pitches NOT by luck!

DougWyatt · 04-11-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Carlos Silva must be very unlucky because he sure gives up a lot of hits per IP. Greg Maddux needs to play the lottery because he has been blessed with great luck his entire career.

I really dont want to discuss this topic but this theory completely blows conventional baseball wisdom out the door. Good location, good movement, pitch selection set the hitter up not for strikeouts but for weak ground balls or flyouts. This is controlled BY the pitcher making these pitches NOT by luck!

I don't know, now that I think about it - maybe that theory is right.

And, as I think about it more ... the pitcher really doesn't completely control whether or not the batter hits the ball; as a large portion of that is controlled by the batter. So, really - the only thing a pitcher completely controls is whether or not he throws a ball or a strike. (which one could argue, that is also dependant on the wind and the umpires judgement - but I won't go there). So, realistically - the only stat that really matters is the Walk.

Given this new insight, I say we just get rid of the whole pitcher element - as the position doesn't really impact the game. Just set up a tee to hit off of.

04-11-2007, 05:01 PM	#1
Zoso1515 Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 507 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Whip Since pitcher can't usually control hits against them (BABIP) and hits make up such a large part of WHIP, why do people still use it?

04-11-2007, 05:27 PM	#2
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	What would your alternative be? __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

04-11-2007, 05:27 PM	#3
treedom Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Transylvania Posts: 2,900	CHAIN __________________ A rake and a roustabout.

04-11-2007, 05:34 PM	#5
bigdgp2 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 606	I'd use HOlds, Base-on-Balls, Innings pitched, Total batters faced and Saves for my pitchers. __________________ https://challenge.ootpdevelopments.c...lawlsopher.jpg Last edited by bigdgp2; 04-11-2007 at 05:39 PM.

04-11-2007, 06:16 PM	#7
ihatenames Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rockford Posts: 2,534	I use WHIP because BABIP only includes balls in play. Pitchers can control strikeouts and walks. Strikeout and BBs do have an direct influence on WHIP. Also teams can't score if people are not on base. WHIP to me is a good indicator of how effective a pitcher is. __________________ New Album coming soon!

04-11-2007, 08:37 PM	#10
lewis31lewis52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Central Michigan University Posts: 580	But they can't really. They can control whether the pitch is hittable, but once it's hit, it's totally out of their hands where the ball goes. __________________

04-11-2007, 08:55 PM	#12
lewis31lewis52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Central Michigan University Posts: 580	I'm not saying they're totally out of control, I'm saying that once the ball is hit, they can't really control if it lands safely or not. __________________

04-11-2007, 10:46 PM	#16
treedom Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Transylvania Posts: 2,900	:slurpsoup: __________________ A rake and a roustabout.

04-11-2007, 11:44 PM	#19
jbergey22 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,481	Carlos Silva must be very unlucky because he sure gives up a lot of hits per IP. Greg Maddux needs to play the lottery because he has been blessed with great luck his entire career. I really dont want to discuss this topic but this theory completely blows conventional baseball wisdom out the door. Good location, good movement, pitch selection set the hitter up not for strikeouts but for weak ground balls or flyouts. This is controlled BY the pitcher making these pitches NOT by luck!