Three Way Tie for Wild Card - One Team didn't get to play

ravinhood · 03-31-2007, 12:28 PM

In a mad race for a wild card spot three 2nd place teams finished the season with 86-76 win-loss records. Boston Redsox, Minn Twins and Oakland A's, but, for some strange reason Boston didn't get to play. Minn played Oak and won and there was no game played against Boston. Is this correct? Is the tie breaker for wild card teams something to do with records vs each other and then only the two top teams who had a better record vs the other(s) play for the wild card spot?

Bos was 3-6 vs Oak, but, 5-1 vs Minn

Minn was 4-6 vs Oak, and 1-5 vs Bos

Oak was 6-4 vs Minn and 6-3 vs Bos

Why didn't Boston play Oakland instead?? Minn was 3-6 vs Oak until the Wild card game and only then did the goto 4-6 so they were basically tied with Bos vs Oakland, and had a worse record between each other?? Doesn't make sense, why didn't Boston get to play in the Wild Card playoffs??

Tycobbler · 03-31-2007, 05:35 PM

Here is an excerpt on wildcard tie breakers-

2. When there is a tie for a Division Championship and the breaking of that tie will result in the losing team(s) not being the Wild Card team, the tie for the Division Championship shall be broken as follows:
a. Tie between two teams. The League President shall conduct a coin flip to determine the site of a playoff game between the two teams, the game to be played the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The winner of the game shall be declared the Division Champion.
b. Tie among three teams. If the tied teams have identical records against each other, the League President shall supervise a draw which results in the tied teams being designated the A, B and C teams. A will play B at the home field of A, the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The following day, C will play the winner of A-B at the winner’s home field. The winner of the game shall be declared the Division Champion. When, however, the tied teams do not have identical records against each other, their designation as the A, B, or C teams shall be determined as follows:
1. Team 1 has better record against both Team 2 and Team 3, and Team 2 has better record against Team 3: Team 1 chooses designation as A, B or C team, and Team 2 chooses from remaining choices;
2. Team 1 has better record against both Team 2 and Team 3, and Team 2 and Team 3 have same record against each other: Team 1 chooses designation as A, B or C team and League President supervises draw between Teams 2 and 3 for remaining choices;
3. Team 1 and Team 2 have same record against each other but better record against Team 3: League President supervises draw between Teams 1 and 2. Winner chooses designation as A, B or C team and loser chooses from remaining choices;
4. Team 1 has better record against Team 2, Team 2 has better record against Team 3, and Team 3 has better record against Team 1: Rank teams on the basis of overall winning percentage within the three-team group; team(s) with higher percentages select designation as A, B or C teams(s); when two or more teams tied in overall winning percentage, League President supervises draw between teams so tied.

When there is a tie which affects only the determination of the wild card team and not the determination of a Division Champion, the tie shall be broken as follows:
a. Tie between two teams, in any divisions. The League President shall conduct a coin flip to determine the site of a playoff game between the two teams, the game to be played the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The winner of the game shall be declared the Wild Card team.
b. Tie among three teams, in any division. If the tied teams have identical records against each other, the League President shall supervise a draw which results in the tied teams being designated the A, B and C teams. A will play B at the home field of A, the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The following day, C will play the winner of A-B at the winner’s home field. The winner of the game shall be declared the Wild Card team. When, however, the tied teams do not have identical records against each other, their designation as the A, B or C teams shall be determined in accordance with the procedures set forth in subparagraphs 2(b) (1-4) above.

Knowing that i felt compelled to at least share the definitions with you although i do admit i am not exactly sure how our game handles the 3 way tie. I'll research this further for you and give you my findings. Sorry i couldn't be of better help to you at this time.

ravinhood · 03-31-2007, 07:19 PM

Yeah it falls into just determining a wild card not a division champ for any of the 3 teams. Boston clearly had a better record vs Minn and tied with Minn vs Oak, just couldn't figure out why Boston didn't at least get to play Oakland for the wild card spot instead of Minn. At any rate I was glad to see Oakland get beat out lol they were the only team to give me a hard time during the season and my team beat Minn in 3 games straight. lol Still though I'd like to know the ingame tie breakers here, why it chose Minn over Boston? Did it just roll a dice for all 3 teams and the two highest die rolls played each other for the wild card spot?

Le Grande Orange · 03-31-2007, 07:19 PM

Tycobbler has posted a portion of the relevant MLB rules. Here's the plain English version of what it says and how those actual rules would have applied to your three-way tie scenario:

Since Oakland had a better head-to-head record against both other tied clubs, it gets first choice of which designation it wants to be (A, B, or C). Boston, having a better head-to-head record against one opponent but not the other, would get second choice of which designation it wants to be. Minnesota, having a losing head-to-head record against both other clubs, gets whatever designation is left.

The games are then played as follows:

Day 1: B at A
Day 2: C at A/B

The winner of the game on day 2 is the winner of the tiebreaker and gets the wildcard spot.

Now, as for how OOTP handles it, I'm not sure. Obviously it is not applying a true three-way tiebreaker. I've pointed out several times how a three-way tie should be resolved, but it seems certain situations are still not correctly coded into the game (likely due, at least in part, to how rare a three-way tie is. It's never happened yet in all of MLB's history. The fact that under certain scenarios the three-way tie can be complicated to resolve probably contributed as well).

Even if OOTP disregarded the head-to-head record part of the equation and simply designated the three tied teams as A, B, and C randomly, that would be fine with me as long as the sequence of the games in the tiebreaker were properly played.

ravinhood · 03-31-2007, 07:26 PM

Thanks Le Grande, at least it's something known so I can be satisfied they will work on it hopefully.

Seems to me if they put something in to break tie breakers for division champs they could add near the same thing for tie breaking several ties for just the wild card spot. I would have made the formula of B playing C first though and the winner of that plays A since A has the better record over both other teams. But, if they all had identical records vs each other then well you'd just have to roll a die or use a coin flip to determine order at least to the point of where a team does have a better record over another.

It was a great year though lots of runs for the playoffs, best year I ever played, even the playoffs were nail biters though I still won the World Series.

sporr · 03-31-2007, 11:02 PM

You can manually schedule the 2nd game that LGO mentions above and the game will handle it right. That's until it gets added in to the code.

Ksyrup · 04-01-2007, 07:52 PM

I just had a similar issue with my historical sim, although I don't know what the rules were back in the 30s. Three teams ended the regular season tied, and only 2 of them played to determine the NL Championship.

03-31-2007, 12:28 PM	#1
ravinhood Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 374 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Three Way Tie for Wild Card - One Team didn't get to play In a mad race for a wild card spot three 2nd place teams finished the season with 86-76 win-loss records. Boston Redsox, Minn Twins and Oakland A's, but, for some strange reason Boston didn't get to play. Minn played Oak and won and there was no game played against Boston. Is this correct? Is the tie breaker for wild card teams something to do with records vs each other and then only the two top teams who had a better record vs the other(s) play for the wild card spot? Bos was 3-6 vs Oak, but, 5-1 vs Minn Minn was 4-6 vs Oak, and 1-5 vs Bos Oak was 6-4 vs Minn and 6-3 vs Bos Why didn't Boston play Oakland instead?? Minn was 3-6 vs Oak until the Wild card game and only then did the goto 4-6 so they were basically tied with Bos vs Oakland, and had a worse record between each other?? Doesn't make sense, why didn't Boston get to play in the Wild Card playoffs??

03-31-2007, 05:35 PM	#2
Tycobbler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 20 minutes from Comerica Park Posts: 2,015	Here is an excerpt on wildcard tie breakers- 2. When there is a tie for a Division Championship and the breaking of that tie will result in the losing team(s) not being the Wild Card team, the tie for the Division Championship shall be broken as follows: a. Tie between two teams. The League President shall conduct a coin flip to determine the site of a playoff game between the two teams, the game to be played the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The winner of the game shall be declared the Division Champion. b. Tie among three teams. If the tied teams have identical records against each other, the League President shall supervise a draw which results in the tied teams being designated the A, B and C teams. A will play B at the home field of A, the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The following day, C will play the winner of A-B at the winner’s home field. The winner of the game shall be declared the Division Champion. When, however, the tied teams do not have identical records against each other, their designation as the A, B, or C teams shall be determined as follows: 1. Team 1 has better record against both Team 2 and Team 3, and Team 2 has better record against Team 3: Team 1 chooses designation as A, B or C team, and Team 2 chooses from remaining choices; 2. Team 1 has better record against both Team 2 and Team 3, and Team 2 and Team 3 have same record against each other: Team 1 chooses designation as A, B or C team and League President supervises draw between Teams 2 and 3 for remaining choices; 3. Team 1 and Team 2 have same record against each other but better record against Team 3: League President supervises draw between Teams 1 and 2. Winner chooses designation as A, B or C team and loser chooses from remaining choices; 4. Team 1 has better record against Team 2, Team 2 has better record against Team 3, and Team 3 has better record against Team 1: Rank teams on the basis of overall winning percentage within the three-team group; team(s) with higher percentages select designation as A, B or C teams(s); when two or more teams tied in overall winning percentage, League President supervises draw between teams so tied. When there is a tie which affects only the determination of the wild card team and not the determination of a Division Champion, the tie shall be broken as follows: a. Tie between two teams, in any divisions. The League President shall conduct a coin flip to determine the site of a playoff game between the two teams, the game to be played the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The winner of the game shall be declared the Wild Card team. b. Tie among three teams, in any division. If the tied teams have identical records against each other, the League President shall supervise a draw which results in the tied teams being designated the A, B and C teams. A will play B at the home field of A, the day after the conclusion of the championship season. The following day, C will play the winner of A-B at the winner’s home field. The winner of the game shall be declared the Wild Card team. When, however, the tied teams do not have identical records against each other, their designation as the A, B or C teams shall be determined in accordance with the procedures set forth in subparagraphs 2(b) (1-4) above. Knowing that i felt compelled to at least share the definitions with you although i do admit i am not exactly sure how our game handles the 3 way tie. I'll research this further for you and give you my findings. Sorry i couldn't be of better help to you at this time. Last edited by Tycobbler; 03-31-2007 at 05:37 PM.

03-31-2007, 07:19 PM	#3
ravinhood Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 374 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Yeah it falls into just determining a wild card not a division champ for any of the 3 teams. Boston clearly had a better record vs Minn and tied with Minn vs Oak, just couldn't figure out why Boston didn't at least get to play Oakland for the wild card spot instead of Minn. At any rate I was glad to see Oakland get beat out lol they were the only team to give me a hard time during the season and my team beat Minn in 3 games straight. lol Still though I'd like to know the ingame tie breakers here, why it chose Minn over Boston? Did it just roll a dice for all 3 teams and the two highest die rolls played each other for the wild card spot?

03-31-2007, 07:19 PM	#4
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	Tycobbler has posted a portion of the relevant MLB rules. Here's the plain English version of what it says and how those actual rules would have applied to your three-way tie scenario: Since Oakland had a better head-to-head record against both other tied clubs, it gets first choice of which designation it wants to be (A, B, or C). Boston, having a better head-to-head record against one opponent but not the other, would get second choice of which designation it wants to be. Minnesota, having a losing head-to-head record against both other clubs, gets whatever designation is left. The games are then played as follows: Day 1: B at A Day 2: C at A/B The winner of the game on day 2 is the winner of the tiebreaker and gets the wildcard spot. Now, as for how OOTP handles it, I'm not sure. Obviously it is not applying a true three-way tiebreaker. I've pointed out several times how a three-way tie should be resolved, but it seems certain situations are still not correctly coded into the game (likely due, at least in part, to how rare a three-way tie is. It's never happened yet in all of MLB's history. The fact that under certain scenarios the three-way tie can be complicated to resolve probably contributed as well). Even if OOTP disregarded the head-to-head record part of the equation and simply designated the three tied teams as A, B, and C randomly, that would be fine with me as long as the sequence of the games in the tiebreaker were properly played.

03-31-2007, 07:26 PM	#5
ravinhood Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 374 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Thanks Le Grande, at least it's something known so I can be satisfied they will work on it hopefully. Seems to me if they put something in to break tie breakers for division champs they could add near the same thing for tie breaking several ties for just the wild card spot. I would have made the formula of B playing C first though and the winner of that plays A since A has the better record over both other teams. But, if they all had identical records vs each other then well you'd just have to roll a die or use a coin flip to determine order at least to the point of where a team does have a better record over another. It was a great year though lots of runs for the playoffs, best year I ever played, even the playoffs were nail biters though I still won the World Series.

03-31-2007, 11:02 PM	#6
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	You can manually schedule the 2nd game that LGO mentions above and the game will handle it right. That's until it gets added in to the code.

04-01-2007, 07:52 PM	#7
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I just had a similar issue with my historical sim, although I don't know what the rules were back in the 30s. Three teams ended the regular season tied, and only 2 of them played to determine the NL Championship.