Who won Batter of the Year?

SSG Troyer · 08-25-2002, 05:44 AM

I'm curious what y'all think.....

Specs · 08-25-2002, 12:35 PM

goggins had a better raw season statwise, but lane put up the numbers. it's a crapshoot.

church · 08-25-2002, 01:50 PM

If i was on a voting committee I would vote for Goggins. Though the overall stats are pretty similar Goggins RC/27 is huge and so is his SB total. On top of it his OBP is 71 points higher than Lanes. Like I said, Goggins gets the nod.

JAttractive · 08-25-2002, 02:55 PM

What does RC/27 mean anyway?

Barring defensive considerations which I don't think the game looks at anyway I have to go with Goggins by a long-shot. Lane unfortunately is hindered by fewer at bats but the .501 OBP and 61 SB (though a poor steal percentage blackens this a bit) blow Lane away. Now I know some people would claim he has 12 more rbi's in fewer games and while that is a consideration it is also something that is heavily influenced by his teammates and out of his control. Not only that but he was intentionally walked 29 times (vs. 11) so many rbi situations were taken out of his hand. Also if you want to argue the rbi totals you could point at the 159 runs scored by Goggins then which would essentially nullify that arguement in my mind.

I have to go with Goggins then by a significant margin and the 29 intentional walks by the league would suggest so would his opponents.

Killebrew · 08-25-2002, 03:05 PM

The players nearly match up everywhere except runs, steals, and BB/OBP...

church · 08-25-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JAttractive
What does RC/27 mean anyway?

RC/27 is a stat created by Bill James to measure how many runs a lineup of 9 of the same individual would score in a game.

So 9 players just like Goggins would on average score 15 runs per game.

NickG · 08-25-2002, 04:53 PM

Goggins wins, in my opinion.

A season of .398/.501/.661 is awesome. The 15.09 RC/27 is the type of number I've never seen before. He had almost as many walks as Ks, while Lane's numbers in that category weren't even close. But I keep going back to that .501 OBP. That's what really gives it to Goggins, I think.

EDIT: Could you give me an idea of what your league settings were to get these kinds of numbers?

SSG Troyer · 08-25-2002, 08:07 PM

OOTP gave the award to Lane. I, personally, was stunned.

League settings:

AB 202204
H 52108
2B 9943
3B 1516
HR 7732
BB 19980
HPB 2793
K 35622

Jason Moyer · 08-26-2002, 04:18 AM

Wow, that totally destroys my theory that the MVP always goes to the player with the highest RC.

I've played 40 seasons now, and using the wallman utility I went through all 40 years of the NL trying to see if OOTP favored RBI, HR, etc when it came time to award MVP's and I found that every single MVP went to the RC leader.

Jason

SSG Troyer · 08-26-2002, 05:37 AM

It made me wonder just what OOTP uses to determine the award. The only things I can really see that Lane had over him was TB, RBI, 3B, SF, and K. That just doesn't seem like enough ... maybe Mark, Steve, or a beta-tester can elaborate?

The other possibly mitigating factor is that the Pitcher-of-theYear went to a pitcher on Goggins' team. Maybe OOTP doesn't give both awards to the same team(?).

BTW, that team was the wild-card, and lost the LCS 2-4 to their division winner. Lane's team didn't make the playoffs.

Jason Moyer · 08-26-2002, 05:44 AM

I've had MVPlayer and MVPitcher and ROY on the same team before, so I know that's not it.

Lane had an advantage in HR and RBI, which I think are weighed more heavily than everything else...

Jason

Sagitta · 08-26-2002, 07:57 AM

This might be petty, but it could of been what tipped the scale to Lane:

Lane didn't draw many walks, therefore he was... well.. hitting.

Goggin had a pretty high walk total, and.. well... was walking, where Lane was running.

It's the only thing I can see, and yes, I know it doesn't make that much sense.

- J

YoungEagle · 08-26-2002, 04:32 PM

This is really a reach, but did either player win the MVP in the past?

Maybe Lane didn't win one before and Goggin did?

SSG Troyer · 08-26-2002, 05:59 PM

Here are their career pages:

It doesn't show, but Lane won BOY in 1942. And not that I think it makes a difference, but someone noted defense considerations. Lane is an average defensive 3B, while Goggins is a lead-gloved CF. In 1946, he had ~20 errors.

Goggins was in his last $100,000 year, while Lane was an established vet.

I think, looking at the Career History, that OOTP looks only at BA, HR, and RBI. The program had them close, but Lane had Goggins in HR and RBI, and Goggins' advantage in BA wasn't enough to overcome it.

Oh, and BTW ... Goggins' .401 and the 43 game hitting streak are Majors all-time records. The league started in 1902.

Jason Moyer · 08-26-2002, 06:56 PM

My guess is that the game is looking at how the players rank relative to the league in batting average, homeruns, and RBI. What where there relative rankings looking at that way? Goggins had a higher BA, but fewer HR and RBI.

I can say with 100% certainty that the game does not base the award on whether or not they won one previously, although that has been the case in real life.

Jason

gamadict · 08-27-2002, 03:19 PM

I'm pretty sure the game only looks at the triple-crown stats...Which is generally what voters look at in real life, too. Would be kind of neat if we could somehow customize the voters tendencies...

fantom1979 · 08-27-2002, 10:42 PM

i voted for goggins...

did anyone else notice his 29 IW? WOW

JAttractive · 08-27-2002, 10:59 PM

Yeah I pointed out the 29 IW (vs. 11 for Lane) as even more reason to give him the MVP... Apparently his opponents give him a lot more respect and took the bat out of his many times dropping his RBI totals. That may have even been the difference between him getting MVP or not.

SSG Troyer · 08-28-2002, 05:16 AM

Actually, the IWs seem to happen more for him because he batted right behind an A/A burner, and 1B was open a lot after he stole. That A/A guy also inflated Goggins' SB total (and kept his crappy % over 50), as he was behind him a lot on double steals. A/A singled, Goggins walked, double steal. Almost a given move with less than 2 out... Goggins himself is a B/C runner.

OOTP seems to issue IWs in innings 7-8-9 when 1B is open and 2 out almost exclusively, without regard to score or who/where the tying/winning run is, or even who's at the plate.

Sinclair · 08-29-2002, 07:18 PM

I wonder, also, if the game takes into account things like their respective teams' records. If Lane took his team to the playoffs, whereas Goggins was vacatioing in October, would that make a difference? Could tip the scales in a close vote.

View Poll Results: Who won Batter of the Year?
Carmine Lane	2	5.56%
Michael Goggins	34	94.44%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

08-25-2002, 05:44 AM	#1
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	Who won Batter of the Year? I'm curious what y'all think..... __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska! Last edited by SSG Troyer; 08-25-2002 at 05:51 AM.

08-25-2002, 04:53 PM	#7
NickG Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 138	Goggins wins, in my opinion. A season of .398/.501/.661 is awesome. The 15.09 RC/27 is the type of number I've never seen before. He had almost as many walks as Ks, while Lane's numbers in that category weren't even close. But I keep going back to that .501 OBP. That's what really gives it to Goggins, I think. EDIT: Could you give me an idea of what your league settings were to get these kinds of numbers? Last edited by NickG; 08-25-2002 at 04:56 PM.

08-25-2002, 08:07 PM	#8
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	OOTP gave the award to Lane. I, personally, was stunned. League settings: AB 202204 H 52108 2B 9943 3B 1516 HR 7732 BB 19980 HPB 2793 K 35622 __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

08-26-2002, 04:18 AM	#9
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,074	Wow, that totally destroys my theory that the MVP always goes to the player with the highest RC. I've played 40 seasons now, and using the wallman utility I went through all 40 years of the NL trying to see if OOTP favored RBI, HR, etc when it came time to award MVP's and I found that every single MVP went to the RC leader. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-25-2002, 01:50 PM	#3
church Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: winnipeg, manitoba. Posts: 121	If i was on a voting committee I would vote for Goggins. Though the overall stats are pretty similar Goggins RC/27 is huge and so is his SB total. On top of it his OBP is 71 points higher than Lanes. Like I said, Goggins gets the nod.

08-25-2002, 02:55 PM	#4
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	What does RC/27 mean anyway? Barring defensive considerations which I don't think the game looks at anyway I have to go with Goggins by a long-shot. Lane unfortunately is hindered by fewer at bats but the .501 OBP and 61 SB (though a poor steal percentage blackens this a bit) blow Lane away. Now I know some people would claim he has 12 more rbi's in fewer games and while that is a consideration it is also something that is heavily influenced by his teammates and out of his control. Not only that but he was intentionally walked 29 times (vs. 11) so many rbi situations were taken out of his hand. Also if you want to argue the rbi totals you could point at the 159 runs scored by Goggins then which would essentially nullify that arguement in my mind. I have to go with Goggins then by a significant margin and the 29 intentional walks by the league would suggest so would his opponents.

08-25-2002, 03:05 PM	#5
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	The players nearly match up everywhere except runs, steals, and BB/OBP...

08-26-2002, 05:37 AM	#10
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	It made me wonder just what OOTP uses to determine the award. The only things I can really see that Lane had over him was TB, RBI, 3B, SF, and K. That just doesn't seem like enough ... maybe Mark, Steve, or a beta-tester can elaborate? The other possibly mitigating factor is that the Pitcher-of-theYear went to a pitcher on Goggins' team. Maybe OOTP doesn't give both awards to the same team(?). BTW, that team was the wild-card, and lost the LCS 2-4 to their division winner. Lane's team didn't make the playoffs. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

08-26-2002, 05:44 AM	#11
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,074	I've had MVPlayer and MVPitcher and ROY on the same team before, so I know that's not it. Lane had an advantage in HR and RBI, which I think are weighed more heavily than everything else... Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-26-2002, 07:57 AM	#12
Sagitta Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bouncing between Phillies and Red Sox territory Posts: 357	This might be petty, but it could of been what tipped the scale to Lane: Lane didn't draw many walks, therefore he was... well.. hitting. Goggin had a pretty high walk total, and.. well... was walking, where Lane was running. It's the only thing I can see, and yes, I know it doesn't make that much sense. - J

08-26-2002, 04:32 PM	#13
YoungEagle Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Wayne, MI Posts: 364	reach This is really a reach, but did either player win the MVP in the past? Maybe Lane didn't win one before and Goggin did?

08-26-2002, 05:59 PM	#14
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	Here are their career pages: It doesn't show, but Lane won BOY in 1942. And not that I think it makes a difference, but someone noted defense considerations. Lane is an average defensive 3B, while Goggins is a lead-gloved CF. In 1946, he had ~20 errors. Goggins was in his last $100,000 year, while Lane was an established vet. I think, looking at the Career History, that OOTP looks only at BA, HR, and RBI. The program had them close, but Lane had Goggins in HR and RBI, and Goggins' advantage in BA wasn't enough to overcome it. Oh, and BTW ... Goggins' .401 and the 43 game hitting streak are Majors all-time records. The league started in 1902. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska! Last edited by SSG Troyer; 08-26-2002 at 06:04 PM.

08-26-2002, 06:56 PM	#15
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,074	My guess is that the game is looking at how the players rank relative to the league in batting average, homeruns, and RBI. What where there relative rankings looking at that way? Goggins had a higher BA, but fewer HR and RBI. I can say with 100% certainty that the game does not base the award on whether or not they won one previously, although that has been the case in real life. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-27-2002, 03:19 PM	#16
gamadict Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pitsburgh, PA... Posts: 50	I'm pretty sure the game only looks at the triple-crown stats...Which is generally what voters look at in real life, too. Would be kind of neat if we could somehow customize the voters tendencies...

08-27-2002, 10:42 PM	#17
fantom1979 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 3,498	i voted for goggins... did anyone else notice his 29 IW? WOW __________________

08-27-2002, 10:59 PM	#18
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Yeah I pointed out the 29 IW (vs. 11 for Lane) as even more reason to give him the MVP... Apparently his opponents give him a lot more respect and took the bat out of his many times dropping his RBI totals. That may have even been the difference between him getting MVP or not.

08-28-2002, 05:16 AM	#19
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	Actually, the IWs seem to happen more for him because he batted right behind an A/A burner, and 1B was open a lot after he stole. That A/A guy also inflated Goggins' SB total (and kept his crappy % over 50), as he was behind him a lot on double steals. A/A singled, Goggins walked, double steal. Almost a given move with less than 2 out... Goggins himself is a B/C runner. OOTP seems to issue IWs in innings 7-8-9 when 1B is open and 2 out almost exclusively, without regard to score or who/where the tying/winning run is, or even who's at the plate. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska! Last edited by SSG Troyer; 08-28-2002 at 05:19 AM.

08-29-2002, 07:18 PM	#20
Sinclair Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 202	I wonder, also, if the game takes into account things like their respective teams' records. If Lane took his team to the playoffs, whereas Goggins was vacatioing in October, would that make a difference? Could tip the scales in a close vote.