creating a "true" rookie database...

Gambo · 05-12-2002, 06:28 PM

I am currently working on what I refer to as a "true" rookie database for OOTP4...(Help note at bottom)

The idea is that I dont believe that players should be created as rookies @ the point of their ML debut with that team, when they are forced to develop in the minors for a couple of years...

Basically I am editing the existing Lahman database 4.5 so that those players will be created with the team they were drafted by (And signed with) in the year they were drafted...and with players averaged out to an average season...

e.g.
Mike Lowell 1995 NYY
Sid Fernandez 1981 LA
u get the idea...

here is the plan...
the first one I will post will have most everyplayer who made their debut after 1965(the 1st year of the "true" draft...

after that I will update as many players as possible until I am finished...

the research will take alot of time due to getting access to the records which I need... basically I am going to rely on for now what I can attain from the Sporting News Baseball Register and baseball cards and various websites...

the hardest part will be getting the necessary information for almost 16,000 players historically...I have worked briefly in the past week and have gotten almost 700 guys done...

any help or ideas would be appreciated...or interest...

The final idea is to keep on working on it and actually add some features as time goes on such as organization,maybe even minors leagues as time goes on but thats getting way too ahead of myself...

****extra note******
I do not plan on selling so dont worry about that after all none of it is really my own work(but since I am a college student and this is going to take alot of reseach and time on my part) I might have it as donationware...anybody can download it and u can donate if u want...

Scott Vibert · 05-13-2002, 04:41 AM

Sounds interesting... it will be important to make sure to test this thoroughly and ensure that players don't import with ratings too high or we'll start to see players debuting the year they were signed/drafted rather than their rookie year...

But its definitely a good idea.... good luck!

Gambo · 05-13-2002, 10:08 AM

I thought that that would be a problem but in using the database created last year for rookie importation it didnt seem to be a problem, they are full career averages for everybody unless they played under 154 games for batters otherwise it is a cumulation of stats...
(basically using both batters and pitchers will balance it out)...
For pitchers I used a tiered game structure...
(if I remember right)
starters (65%GS/GP)-35g
relievers (<40%GS) -50g
spot starters 65-40% - 42g
to come up with the numbers...
the fielding is a little bit different but that is the least important category for now...

Draft Dodger · 05-13-2002, 10:31 AM

I had strongly considered doing this very thing not long ago, but, ultimately I decided I didn't have the time to do it properly...

good luck, though - I'd love to see this.

biggamejrs · 05-13-2002, 11:46 AM

Good luck with this. I would like this alot. James

Highlander · 05-13-2002, 12:14 PM

Great idea....I hope it works for you (and us). That is a frustration that some players have to wait a number of years after they actually entered the league to enter the OOTP leagues. Thanks for your effort!!

izman1999 · 05-15-2002, 05:36 PM

This info is available in the annual Baseball Register that is produced by The Sporting News. However, it only lists those players that were active in the given season.

Spritze · 05-16-2002, 01:59 PM

I have created a similar database in the Lahman format. Currently it contains all players who appeared in the majors from 1951 thru 1959. (I had to start somewheres) Besides their major league careers it also includes the MLE's of their minor league careers. They start as rookies when they entered baseball, be that minors, majors,latin or negro leagues. That is so the fellers who only tasted the coffee in the show can play for me if they were any good. I have also added those negro leaguers who appeared in organized ball if they had enough playing time to generate MLE's. This might help you fill out a few years.

Gambo · 05-18-2002, 11:53 AM

That is pretty awesome...eventually I want to get that far but for now I want to get their import stats set up right...

Eventually I want to set up a grid system as part of the master file which basically marks which organization they were in in a given season so that it can be used to create seasons with players in the minors for each year...that is another weeknees I found in the Lahman database in that Andre Thornton,Dave Winfield,Jose Rijo etc arent created when starting certain seasons...

rwd59 · 05-24-2002, 03:13 PM

is this still in the works?

Carpentron · 05-27-2002, 07:38 AM

I actually did make a sort of rookie database that covers the entirety of the Lahman database. But it's not exactly what you're talking about. I set each player to show up in the year he turns 18. His stats at that time a well below his career average. I then gave each guy a second year that balances out the rookie year to give him an potential for his whole career based on his actual career.

What basically happens is that each year, anyone who is 18 (or will turn 18 during the year) shows up for the amateur draft. He gets drafted into the minors and shows up in the majors within a few years, just like real baseball. This is the most interesting league I have run yet (and I've done quite a few) because I get to see people like Ty Cobb get called up too fast and develop into a .270 hitter, while Homer Hillenbrand, who only played a couple of short seasons, become a dominating pitcher. It's like playing a fictional league with real players.

The only thing about it is that if you start with the regular Lahman DB, there will be players who never show up because they turned 18 in a year before the one in which you are starting. So for my league, which started in 1901, I made every player from 1880-1890 who had more than 550 at bats and every player from 1891-1901 available for the initial draft. There were about 1800 players for 8 teams to start, but a whole lot of them retired after 1 season.

If anyone wants this database, I guess I could post it somewhere.

spleen1015 · 05-27-2002, 09:08 AM

I commented in another thread, that I'd like to get a hold of you DB, Carpentron.

Modern Relic · 05-27-2002, 09:16 AM

I'd be interested in this as well.

Carpentron · 05-28-2002, 05:12 PM

Okay, I'll put it up tomorrow and post the URL for it. Sorry, don't have time tonight.

rferry · 05-29-2002, 02:53 AM

i think their career averages would eliminate the need for a lot of players to do soem time in the minors, which i thought the whole concept of your project was to make their progress from high school/college player to major leaguer more realistic.

Carpentron · 05-29-2002, 02:20 PM

I've posted the modified database I used at <a href="http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip." target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip.</a>

Anyone who wants can give it a try. Just note that it is not 100% compatible with the regular DB because all players appear in their 18th year, so if you're using a guy who didn't show up in the majors until he was 26 and you start 3 years before he actually showed up, he will never appear. The way I've normally fixed this is by either altering the regular DB to make them show up in the initial year I plan to use or (my preference, but very involved) alter the altered DB to make all players from the past 10-20 years show up for an initial draft.

Also note that I haven't fixed inaccuracies present in the DB and I intended it for a draft league, so guys will not show up on the team with which they first appeared.

Feel free to change it around all you want and make it better suit your purposes or the purposes of others.

In response to rferry, I don't actually use career averages (except for stats like SB/CS that don't use talent ratings). The first season they appear they will be well under major league level. What I did was add a second season balances out the inferior rookie year so that their career potential is correct and the talent ratings are right.

Carpentron · 05-29-2002, 02:24 PM

I accidentally put a period at the end of that link. What I meant to put was:

<a href="http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip</a>

rferry · 05-29-2002, 04:36 PM

cool. i'm downloading them right now.
but my post was intended for gambo.

rferry · 05-29-2002, 04:44 PM

here's a question for carp..
i'm in the middle of historical career with the orioles tearing **** up in the mid 60s. i'm going to go back and see if the browns can do better in st. louis and maybe cause the cardinals to move with your database. i'm just wondering if you changed any of the younger players, those that were 16 or 17 during their debut. do they still come in at 16/17 or at 18? thanks.

Carpentron · 06-02-2002, 05:11 PM

Actually, I didn't. That's a good question, too, because if I'd had more time to put into it, I definitely would have. The files I made didn't actually take long because I just applied the same formula to everyone. It's really just a "quick" version of a rookie database. If I ever get some time on my hands, I'll make a more detailed version.

05-12-2002, 06:28 PM	#1
Gambo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 2,388	creating a "true" rookie database... I am currently working on what I refer to as a "true" rookie database for OOTP4...(Help note at bottom) The idea is that I dont believe that players should be created as rookies @ the point of their ML debut with that team, when they are forced to develop in the minors for a couple of years... Basically I am editing the existing Lahman database 4.5 so that those players will be created with the team they were drafted by (And signed with) in the year they were drafted...and with players averaged out to an average season... e.g. Mike Lowell 1995 NYY Sid Fernandez 1981 LA u get the idea... here is the plan... the first one I will post will have most everyplayer who made their debut after 1965(the 1st year of the "true" draft... after that I will update as many players as possible until I am finished... the research will take alot of time due to getting access to the records which I need... basically I am going to rely on for now what I can attain from the Sporting News Baseball Register and baseball cards and various websites... the hardest part will be getting the necessary information for almost 16,000 players historically...I have worked briefly in the past week and have gotten almost 700 guys done... any help or ideas would be appreciated...or interest... The final idea is to keep on working on it and actually add some features as time goes on such as organization,maybe even minors leagues as time goes on but thats getting way too ahead of myself... **extra note** I do not plan on selling so dont worry about that after all none of it is really my own work(but since I am a college student and this is going to take alot of reseach and time on my part) I might have it as donationware...anybody can download it and u can donate if u want... __________________ Give me league evolution with historical imports!!! OOTP MODS: Historical Face Gen Project, Spritze/Gambo Database, OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images, MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack** available at... http://www.ootpmods.com

05-13-2002, 10:08 AM	#3
Gambo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 2,388	I thought that that would be a problem but in using the database created last year for rookie importation it didnt seem to be a problem, they are full career averages for everybody unless they played under 154 games for batters otherwise it is a cumulation of stats... (basically using both batters and pitchers will balance it out)... For pitchers I used a tiered game structure... (if I remember right) starters (65%GS/GP)-35g relievers (<40%GS) -50g spot starters 65-40% - 42g to come up with the numbers... the fielding is a little bit different but that is the least important category for now... __________________ *Give me league evolution with historical imports!!!* OOTP MODS: Historical Face Gen Project, Spritze/Gambo Database, OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images, MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack available at... http://www.ootpmods.com

05-13-2002, 10:31 AM	#4
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I had strongly considered doing this very thing not long ago, but, ultimately I decided I didn't have the time to do it properly... good luck, though - I'd love to see this. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

05-13-2002, 11:46 AM	#5
biggamejrs Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Greenville, USA Posts: 212	Good luck with this. I would like this alot. James __________________ Go Braves!!

05-13-2002, 12:14 PM	#6
Highlander All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,089	Great idea....I hope it works for you (and us). That is a frustration that some players have to wait a number of years after they actually entered the league to enter the OOTP leagues. Thanks for your effort!! __________________ "The baseball mania has run its course. It has no future as a professional endeavor." — Cincinnati Gazette editorial, 1879

05-13-2002, 04:41 AM	#2
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,266	Sounds interesting... it will be important to make sure to test this thoroughly and ensure that players don't import with ratings too high or we'll start to see players debuting the year they were signed/drafted rather than their rookie year... But its definitely a good idea.... good luck!

05-15-2002, 05:36 PM	#7
izman1999 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 187	This info is available in the annual Baseball Register that is produced by The Sporting News. However, it only lists those players that were active in the given season.

05-16-2002, 01:59 PM	#8
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I have created a similar database in the Lahman format. Currently it contains all players who appeared in the majors from 1951 thru 1959. (I had to start somewheres) Besides their major league careers it also includes the MLE's of their minor league careers. They start as rookies when they entered baseball, be that minors, majors,latin or negro leagues. That is so the fellers who only tasted the coffee in the show can play for me if they were any good. I have also added those negro leaguers who appeared in organized ball if they had enough playing time to generate MLE's. This might help you fill out a few years. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

05-18-2002, 11:53 AM	#9
Gambo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 2,388	That is pretty awesome...eventually I want to get that far but for now I want to get their import stats set up right... Eventually I want to set up a grid system as part of the master file which basically marks which organization they were in in a given season so that it can be used to create seasons with players in the minors for each year...that is another weeknees I found in the Lahman database in that Andre Thornton,Dave Winfield,Jose Rijo etc arent created when starting certain seasons... __________________ *Give me league evolution with historical imports!!!* OOTP MODS: Historical Face Gen Project, Spritze/Gambo Database, OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images, MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack available at... http://www.ootpmods.com

05-24-2002, 03:13 PM	#10
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 997	is this still in the works?

05-27-2002, 07:38 AM	#11
Carpentron Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	I actually did make a sort of rookie database that covers the entirety of the Lahman database. But it's not exactly what you're talking about. I set each player to show up in the year he turns 18. His stats at that time a well below his career average. I then gave each guy a second year that balances out the rookie year to give him an potential for his whole career based on his actual career. What basically happens is that each year, anyone who is 18 (or will turn 18 during the year) shows up for the amateur draft. He gets drafted into the minors and shows up in the majors within a few years, just like real baseball. This is the most interesting league I have run yet (and I've done quite a few) because I get to see people like Ty Cobb get called up too fast and develop into a .270 hitter, while Homer Hillenbrand, who only played a couple of short seasons, become a dominating pitcher. It's like playing a fictional league with real players. The only thing about it is that if you start with the regular Lahman DB, there will be players who never show up because they turned 18 in a year before the one in which you are starting. So for my league, which started in 1901, I made every player from 1880-1890 who had more than 550 at bats and every player from 1891-1901 available for the initial draft. There were about 1800 players for 8 teams to start, but a whole lot of them retired after 1 season. If anyone wants this database, I guess I could post it somewhere.

05-27-2002, 09:08 AM	#12
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	I commented in another thread, that I'd like to get a hold of you DB, Carpentron.

05-27-2002, 09:16 AM	#13
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	I'd be interested in this as well. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

05-28-2002, 05:12 PM	#14
Carpentron Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	Okay, I'll put it up tomorrow and post the URL for it. Sorry, don't have time tonight.

05-29-2002, 02:53 AM	#15
rferry All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: DC Posts: 549	i think their career averages would eliminate the need for a lot of players to do soem time in the minors, which i thought the whole concept of your project was to make their progress from high school/college player to major leaguer more realistic. __________________ please excuse my grammar, i read baseball weekly in my high school english classes.

05-29-2002, 02:20 PM	#16
Carpentron Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	I've posted the modified database I used at <a href="http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip." target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip.</a> Anyone who wants can give it a try. Just note that it is not 100% compatible with the regular DB because all players appear in their 18th year, so if you're using a guy who didn't show up in the majors until he was 26 and you start 3 years before he actually showed up, he will never appear. The way I've normally fixed this is by either altering the regular DB to make them show up in the initial year I plan to use or (my preference, but very involved) alter the altered DB to make all players from the past 10-20 years show up for an initial draft. Also note that I haven't fixed inaccuracies present in the DB and I intended it for a draft league, so guys will not show up on the team with which they first appeared. Feel free to change it around all you want and make it better suit your purposes or the purposes of others. In response to rferry, I don't actually use career averages (except for stats like SB/CS that don't use talent ratings). The first season they appear they will be well under major league level. What I did was add a second season balances out the inferior rookie year so that their career potential is correct and the talent ratings are right.

05-29-2002, 02:24 PM	#17
Carpentron Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	I accidentally put a period at the end of that link. What I meant to put was: <a href="http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/carpentron/ubl/LahmanRookies.zip</a>

05-29-2002, 04:36 PM	#18
rferry All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: DC Posts: 549	cool. i'm downloading them right now. but my post was intended for gambo. __________________ please excuse my grammar, i read baseball weekly in my high school english classes.

05-29-2002, 04:44 PM	#19
rferry All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: DC Posts: 549	here's a question for carp.. i'm in the middle of historical career with the orioles tearing **** up in the mid 60s. i'm going to go back and see if the browns can do better in st. louis and maybe cause the cardinals to move with your database. i'm just wondering if you changed any of the younger players, those that were 16 or 17 during their debut. do they still come in at 16/17 or at 18? thanks. __________________ please excuse my grammar, i read baseball weekly in my high school english classes.

06-02-2002, 05:11 PM	#20
Carpentron Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	Actually, I didn't. That's a good question, too, because if I'd had more time to put into it, I definitely would have. The files I made didn't actually take long because I just applied the same formula to everyone. It's really just a "quick" version of a rookie database. If I ever get some time on my hands, I'll make a more detailed version.