Figuring VORP correctly?

[beorn]

I'll be the first to admit I don't know a thing about VORP, but it seems hard to believe this second baseman's VORP should be that far below zero for 1960. A barely adequate starter, true, but much worse than some mythical "replacement level player"???

[andymac]

VORP dependent on the quality of the other 2nd basemen in your league. What do the numbers of the top 20 or so look like? "Replacement level" isn't some mythical level...it is a calculated level based on the other 2nd basemen.

[dougaiton]

That guy 'barely adequate'? I hope the rest of your infield isn't adequate!

One thing that is interesting is this guy is a no power, no eye singles-hitting infielder with no speed whatsoever. I'd like to see his defence, but if he's decent defensively, then this guy is a very odd player-type that if it appears regularly may be a kink in player-creation. For a player to derive all his value (admittedly not much) from singles but to have no speed is really a bit weird (unless he has speed, and is good defensively, but no stealing ability, of course).

[His Own Bad Self]

Eyeballing VORP "leaders" as given by BBPro: The worst VORP figures in any given year look like they're between about -15 and -20, although I did see a few worse than that. However, there were some who, although they "only" had VORP totals of, say, -10 to -15, they did so in about 300 PA or less. The only reason they didn't reach the levels that this player did is that they were so obviously terrible (like this player) that there was no way they could be used every day (unlike this player).

In fact, that's starting to bother me more than the low VORP figure - how in the world this guy could stay in the lineup when he's so obviously terrible.

[beorn]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

That guy 'barely adequate'? I hope the rest of your infield isn't adequate!

One thing that is interesting is this guy is a no power, no eye singles-hitting infielder with no speed whatsoever. I'd like to see his defence, but if he's decent defensively, then this guy is a very odd player-type that if it appears regularly may be a kink in player-creation. For a player to derive all his value (admittedly not much) from singles but to have no speed is really a bit weird (unless he has speed, and is good defensively, but no stealing ability, of course).

He is a very good fielder, and I always figure 12 HRs from a 2b is adequate.

I gotta figure if my starter and reserve go down and I pick this guy up on waivers and he plays like this for the season, i got very lucky.

My perspective may be warped by two things, though. I grew up in the pitching dominant 60s (and don't much follow real life baseball much) so my ideas of batting stats are probably hopelessly out of date. Also, in OOTP6.5, I have tended to do very well with pitching and defense, plus a couple big bats. I've won a lot of pennants with guys like this at second and short.

You also note the lack of speed. That's interesting, because I don't think OOTP has ever favored speed teams. Speed gets you the extra base, but it does not add the level of pressure on the opponent that you get in real life. It makes sense that his SB stats are hurting his VORP -- but I never even notice that.

Interesting... although apparently not a bug, and not belonging in the tech support forum.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by beorn

He is a very good fielder, and I always figure 12 HRs from a 2b is adequate.

I gotta figure if my starter and reserve go down and I pick this guy up on waivers and he plays like this for the season, i got very lucky.

My perspective may be warped by two things, though. I grew up in the pitching dominant 60s (and don't much follow real life baseball much) so my ideas of batting stats are probably hopelessly out of date. Also, in OOTP6.5, I have tended to do very well with pitching and defense, plus a couple big bats. I've won a lot of pennants with guys like this at second and short.

You also note the lack of speed. That's interesting, because I don't think OOTP has ever favored speed teams. Speed gets you the extra base, but it does not add the level of pressure on the opponent that you get in real life. It makes sense that his SB stats are hurting his VORP -- but I never even notice that.

Interesting... although apparently not a bug, and not belonging in the tech support forum.

Far be it from me to criticise his selection! He'd look pretty good at LF in one of my on-line teams .

My interest is this: do any good defence, singles-hitter infielders exist in RL that have absolutely no speed? Range and speed are at least somewhat tied in the middle-infield, and his lack of EBH tells you that most of his hits aren't going to be that hard hit - normally players like this survive by running these singles out.

[beorn]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

My interest is this: do any good defence, singles-hitter infielders exist in RL that have absolutely no speed? Range and speed are at least somewhat tied in the middle-infield, and his lack of EBH tells you that most of his hits aren't going to be that hard hit - normally players like this survive by running these singles out.

You definitely have a point.

[battists]

Beorn, I've logged this as issue 2369, but I don't suspect it will get tremendously high priority. However, at least he can take a look and say on the surface whether he thinks it's an issue or not...