Suspension of Disbelief

Mr. Capo · 07-09-2006, 09:42 AM

AI is tricky, and baseball is complex. Markus is working to please an army of experts, and in a sense we're all beta-testers. As such, it is appropriate that we keep an eye out for areas of improvement in the AI.

BUT to best enjoy the game, it's more fun to forget that lines of code are determining events.

When an odd roster move or strategem occurs, rather than curse the game engine, I concoct some circumstance that might support the fantasy. Weird and stupid things DO happen in baseball, and in this alternate universe, some are just a little weirder and stupider. If a manager benched his best player for no apparent reason during the last two months of a pennant race and the world series, you might say that the AI is broken. Yet that's what Pittsburgh did in 1927. I can remember several real-world trades and roster moves that had us all scratching our heads. If it had been AI, we'd report a bug, but it was human intelligence that was in question.

So when the announcer praises the fielder for holding the ball as the winning run scores, I just say "What a silly announcer." I've heard some who are almost that bad.

I've simmed many seasons in OOTP in which well-known players post stats so close to their real world performances that it's amazing. That happens more often than not, and the abberrations are IMHO within specs. And it is the abberrations that make it fun. If every ballplayer and team in the game did exactly what they did in real life, would that be fun? It's the over-achievers and under-achievers that make playing the game interesting. It's what I wait for and enjoy.

So let's continue to report potential areas of improvement for the AI, but let's not let it interfere with our enjoyment of the game. If the AI were to become flawless, I would request that he throw some curves in, just to keep it interesting.

dankrzyz · 07-09-2006, 10:19 AM

I agree wholeheartedly.

Play on!

CHCfan · 07-09-2006, 10:48 AM

Amen to that!

StyxNCa · 07-09-2006, 10:53 AM

Totally.

Dr. K. · 07-09-2006, 02:52 PM

Hear hear!!!

Steve Kuffrey · 07-09-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Capo

AI is tricky, and baseball is complex. Markus is working to please an army of experts, and in a sense we're all beta-testers. As such, it is appropriate that we keep an eye out for areas of improvement in the AI.

BUT to best enjoy the game, it's more fun to forget that lines of code are determining events.

When an odd roster move or strategem occurs, rather than curse the game engine, I concoct some circumstance that might support the fantasy. Weird and stupid things DO happen in baseball, and in this alternate universe, some are just a little weirder and stupider. If a manager benched his best player for no apparent reason during the last two months of a pennant race and the world series, you might say that the AI is broken. Yet that's what Pittsburgh did in 1927. I can remember several real-world trades and roster moves that had us all scratching our heads. If it had been AI, we'd report a bug, but it was human intelligence that was in question.

So when the announcer praises the fielder for holding the ball as the winning run scores, I just say "What a silly announcer." I've heard some who are almost that bad.

I've simmed many seasons in OOTP in which well-known players post stats so close to their real world performances that it's amazing. That happens more often than not, and the abberrations are IMHO within specs. And it is the abberrations that make it fun. If every ballplayer and team in the game did exactly what they did in real life, would that be fun? It's the over-achievers and under-achievers that make playing the game interesting. It's what I wait for and enjoy.

So let's continue to report potential areas of improvement for the AI, but let's not let it interfere with our enjoyment of the game. If the AI were to become flawless, I would request that he throw some curves in, just to keep it interesting.

best.post.today

bosunmate · 07-09-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Capo

AI is tricky, and baseball is complex. Markus is working to please an army of experts, and in a sense we're all beta-testers. As such, it is appropriate that we keep an eye out for areas of improvement in the AI.

BUT to best enjoy the game, it's more fun to forget that lines of code are determining events.

When an odd roster move or strategem occurs, rather than curse the game engine, I concoct some circumstance that might support the fantasy. Weird and stupid things DO happen in baseball, and in this alternate universe, some are just a little weirder and stupider. If a manager benched his best player for no apparent reason during the last two months of a pennant race and the world series, you might say that the AI is broken. Yet that's what Pittsburgh did in 1927. I can remember several real-world trades and roster moves that had us all scratching our heads. If it had been AI, we'd report a bug, but it was human intelligence that was in question.

So when the announcer praises the fielder for holding the ball as the winning run scores, I just say "What a silly announcer." I've heard some who are almost that bad.

I've simmed many seasons in OOTP in which well-known players post stats so close to their real world performances that it's amazing. That happens more often than not, and the abberrations are IMHO within specs. And it is the abberrations that make it fun. If every ballplayer and team in the game did exactly what they did in real life, would that be fun? It's the over-achievers and under-achievers that make playing the game interesting. It's what I wait for and enjoy.

So let's continue to report potential areas of improvement for the AI, but let's not let it interfere with our enjoyment of the game. If the AI were to become flawless, I would request that he throw some curves in, just to keep it interesting.

Double Ditto

Giants44 · 07-09-2006, 03:54 PM

sorry to break up this lovefest...

I agree with this to a degree, but some things are beyond suspension of belief.

for example in my current MLB league - the Tampa Bay devil rays signed 2B Ray Durham to a 4 year 23M contract and then TWO WEEKS later sent him to the minors, where he has been languishing ever since.

also teams frequently the trade for a high priced guy and then cut him a week later eating his contract is another glaring example.

these things DO NOT HAPPEN - in real life - I challenge anyone to come up with a real world example where a real team commits multi-millions to a player and then gives up on him in less then a month. It doesn't happen.

why, because in modern sports - the contract is one of the first things any GM considers and I think the problem we have in the AI now is it doesn't put nearly enough weight on a players contract when making decisions.

an odd decision here and there, sure no problem. Teams that throw away millions of dollars for no reason, nope.

rwd59 · 07-09-2006, 04:05 PM

While you are correct about this money wasting problem, and I agree with a great deal of the things you have had to say about the game, it's not new to this version. But there has got to be a way to do something about it.

glenn · 07-09-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giants44

sorry to break up this lovefest...

I agree with this to a degree, but some things are beyond suspension of belief.

for example in my current MLB league - the Tampa Bay devil rays signed 2B Ray Durham to a 4 year 23M contract and then TWO WEEKS later sent him to the minors, where he has been languishing ever since.

also teams frequently the trade for a high priced guy and then cut him a week later eating his contract is another glaring example.

these things DO NOT HAPPEN - in real life - I challenge anyone to come up with a real world example where a real team commits multi-millions to a player and then gives up on him in less then a month. It doesn't happen.

why, because in modern sports - the contract is one of the first things any GM considers and I think the problem we have in the AI now is it doesn't put nearly enough weight on a players contract when making decisions.

an odd decision here and there, sure no problem. Teams that throw away millions of dollars for no reason, nope.

The Angels sent Jeff Weaver to the minors with an $8.3 million dollar contract. The D-Backs released Russ Ortiz with a 4 year $33 million dollar contract. Thos are just in the past couple months, so I know there are more. These type of things do happen in real life, maybe not in less than a month, but they happen.

How old is Durham in your league, how was he hitting when he was sent down, how is he doing in the minors?

rwd59 · 07-09-2006, 04:07 PM

Then maybe the question is why did they sign him in the first place?

glenn · 07-09-2006, 04:11 PM

Teams make bad moves all the time in real life. Why did the Reds sign Eric Milton? Why do teams overpay for mediocre talent? It's not perfect in real life, so it shouldn't be perfect in the game.

Zitofan75 · 07-09-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn

Teams make bad moves all the time in real life. Why did the Reds sign Eric Milton? Why do teams overpay for mediocre talent? It's not perfect in real life, so it shouldn't be perfect in the game.

Hmmmm, I seem to remember threads like these for the previous versions of OOTP from time to time ...

fluffone · 07-09-2006, 04:24 PM

I recall reading several years ago that Pursue the Pennant replayed Game 6 of the 1986 World Series and it took something like 290 attempts before the Mets won. If a simmer with no knowledge of baseball history were to see ANY sim play out Game 6 like it actually occured,they'd think there was a flaw in the engine,not a flaw in an actual baseball game. My dad and I were at a Red Sox game in 1999 where Pedro got shelled by the Marlins.If a sim goes for absolute statistical accuracy,Pedro might match his season record and ERA,but the aberration wouldn't happen and what's the fun in that.

BigMember · 07-09-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Capo

AI is tricky, and baseball is complex. Markus is working to please an army of experts, and in a sense we're all beta-testers. As such, it is appropriate that we keep an eye out for areas of improvement in the AI.

BUT to best enjoy the game, it's more fun to forget that lines of code are determining events.

When an odd roster move or strategem occurs, rather than curse the game engine, I concoct some circumstance that might support the fantasy. Weird and stupid things DO happen in baseball, and in this alternate universe, some are just a little weirder and stupider. If a manager benched his best player for no apparent reason during the last two months of a pennant race and the world series, you might say that the AI is broken. Yet that's what Pittsburgh did in 1927. I can remember several real-world trades and roster moves that had us all scratching our heads. If it had been AI, we'd report a bug, but it was human intelligence that was in question.

So when the announcer praises the fielder for holding the ball as the winning run scores, I just say "What a silly announcer." I've heard some who are almost that bad.

I've simmed many seasons in OOTP in which well-known players post stats so close to their real world performances that it's amazing. That happens more often than not, and the abberrations are IMHO within specs. And it is the abberrations that make it fun. If every ballplayer and team in the game did exactly what they did in real life, would that be fun? It's the over-achievers and under-achievers that make playing the game interesting. It's what I wait for and enjoy.

So let's continue to report potential areas of improvement for the AI, but let's not let it interfere with our enjoyment of the game. If the AI were to become flawless, I would request that he throw some curves in, just to keep it interesting.

There there!

Giants44 · 07-09-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn

The Angels sent Jeff Weaver to the minors with an $8.3 million dollar contract. The D-Backs released Russ Ortiz with a 4 year $33 million dollar contract. Thos are just in the past couple months, so I know there are more. These type of things do happen in real life, maybe not in less than a month, but they happen.

How old is Durham in your league, how was he hitting when he was sent down, how is he doing in the minors?

Actually Weaver was designated for assignment and traded, he wasn't sent down. There is an enormous difference in sending down 8M and still paying it and trading him away and making it someone else's problem. Now if the Cardinals cut him next week - I will admit I am wrong, don't count on it.

Ortiz was cut after a year and a half of his contract - big difference between that and a couple weeks.

it doesn't matter how old or well Durham is/was doing (I didn't even check) no team guarantees a guy 20+ Million and then sends him down before he ever takes an AB - the GM would be fired by the owner in a heartbeat.

I repeat - commitments to millions of dollars and then being given up on in less then a month DOES NOT HAPPEN. These examples only reiterate the point.

look, no one wants OOTP to be great more then I do - but making excuses for these types of things does not make the game better, it makes it worse.

rwd59 · 07-09-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giants44

look, no one wants OOTP to be great more then I do - but making excuses for these types of things does not make the game better, it makes it worse.

""

Mr. Capo · 07-09-2006, 05:19 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that everything the game's AI does is defensible as realistic. Agreed, some things the game does might not happen in real life. I'm only saying that these things don't make me angy; that in my fantasy baseball world, (and this IS fantasy, after all) I can either supply fanciful explanations for why they happen, or just plain ignore them.

As I mentioned in my original post, I think it's great that we all participate in improving the realism of the game, and the points raised here are good ones. They should and (probably) will be addressed. But FOR ME, until the next patch, or even the one after that, I can easily find a way for them to not spoil my fun.

battists · 07-09-2006, 05:31 PM

I think Mr. Capo makes a good point, but I confess my fundamental approach to life is kinda "half full" in that way.

As we track bugs for future fixes, anything that causes a crash gets a top priority. Why? If the game crashes, it makes the game fundamentally unplayable. Beyond that, we tend to rate computer AI issues highly as well. I can't say whether this is the same way things have worked through previous iterations of the game.

Beyond that, we're all working hard to address every issue that comes our way. Some things are harder than others. Clearly, computer AI and roster management are two of those things, or it wouldn't have been so problematic over the years.

But, the fact that there are problems with the game doesn't mean that you can't gleefully ignore them until they are resolved, if you have that sort of personality. If it just ruins the experience too much for you, then yes, set the game aside if need be.

In either case, I continue to urge you to post tech support threads with specific issues. Yes, even if you're sure it's been mentioned before, it doesn't hurt. I'd rather close or merge 50 threads that have already been logged then find out something important never got into our bug tracking system because it was discussed exclusively in General, and I never noticed it there.

At the end of the day, people have varying levels of patience with a game, and that will never change. Some people, like Mr. Capo, can enjoy the game even with flaws, and will be happier still when more of the problems are resolved. For some people, this sim is such serious business that they can't abide the flaws in the AI, or whatever. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Mr. Capo · 07-09-2006, 05:40 PM

battists, you're a born diplomat.

07-09-2006, 09:42 AM	#1
Mr. Capo Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 240	Suspension of Disbelief AI is tricky, and baseball is complex. Markus is working to please an army of experts, and in a sense we're all beta-testers. As such, it is appropriate that we keep an eye out for areas of improvement in the AI. BUT to best enjoy the game, it's more fun to forget that lines of code are determining events. When an odd roster move or strategem occurs, rather than curse the game engine, I concoct some circumstance that might support the fantasy. Weird and stupid things DO happen in baseball, and in this alternate universe, some are just a little weirder and stupider. If a manager benched his best player for no apparent reason during the last two months of a pennant race and the world series, you might say that the AI is broken. Yet that's what Pittsburgh did in 1927. I can remember several real-world trades and roster moves that had us all scratching our heads. If it had been AI, we'd report a bug, but it was human intelligence that was in question. So when the announcer praises the fielder for holding the ball as the winning run scores, I just say "What a silly announcer." I've heard some who are almost that bad. I've simmed many seasons in OOTP in which well-known players post stats so close to their real world performances that it's amazing. That happens more often than not, and the abberrations are IMHO within specs. And it is the abberrations that make it fun. If every ballplayer and team in the game did exactly what they did in real life, would that be fun? It's the over-achievers and under-achievers that make playing the game interesting. It's what I wait for and enjoy. So let's continue to report potential areas of improvement for the AI, but let's not let it interfere with our enjoyment of the game. If the AI were to become flawless, I would request that he throw some curves in, just to keep it interesting.

07-09-2006, 03:54 PM	#8
Giants44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 2,408	sorry to break up this lovefest... I agree with this to a degree, but some things are beyond suspension of belief. for example in my current MLB league - the Tampa Bay devil rays signed 2B Ray Durham to a 4 year 23M contract and then TWO WEEKS later sent him to the minors, where he has been languishing ever since. also teams frequently the trade for a high priced guy and then cut him a week later eating his contract is another glaring example. these things DO NOT HAPPEN - in real life - I challenge anyone to come up with a real world example where a real team commits multi-millions to a player and then gives up on him in less then a month. It doesn't happen. why, because in modern sports - the contract is one of the first things any GM considers and I think the problem we have in the AI now is it doesn't put nearly enough weight on a players contract when making decisions. an odd decision here and there, sure no problem. Teams that throw away millions of dollars for no reason, nope. __________________ "In a text sim - Immersion is everything" -Me "Judge a man not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character" -Martin Luther King "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Einstein "The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." -Muhammad Ali "Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." -Toby Harrah

07-09-2006, 04:24 PM	#14
fluffone Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 27	86 Mets on PTP I recall reading several years ago that Pursue the Pennant replayed Game 6 of the 1986 World Series and it took something like 290 attempts before the Mets won. If a simmer with no knowledge of baseball history were to see ANY sim play out Game 6 like it actually occured,they'd think there was a flaw in the engine,not a flaw in an actual baseball game. My dad and I were at a Red Sox game in 1999 where Pedro got shelled by the Marlins.If a sim goes for absolute statistical accuracy,Pedro might match his season record and ERA,but the aberration wouldn't happen and what's the fun in that.

07-09-2006, 05:19 PM	#18
Mr. Capo Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 240	It is fantasy I didn't mean to suggest that everything the game's AI does is defensible as realistic. Agreed, some things the game does might not happen in real life. I'm only saying that these things don't make me angy; that in my fantasy baseball world, (and this IS fantasy, after all) I can either supply fanciful explanations for why they happen, or just plain ignore them. As I mentioned in my original post, I think it's great that we all participate in improving the realism of the game, and the points raised here are good ones. They should and (probably) will be addressed. But FOR ME, until the next patch, or even the one after that, I can easily find a way for them to not spoil my fun.

07-09-2006, 10:19 AM	#2
dankrzyz Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 305	I agree wholeheartedly. Play on!

07-09-2006, 10:48 AM	#3
CHCfan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grand Island, NE Posts: 1,117	Amen to that!

07-09-2006, 10:53 AM	#4
StyxNCa Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Victoria, Texas Posts: 3,136	Totally.

07-09-2006, 02:52 PM	#5
Dr. K. Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tilburg, the Netherlands Posts: 14	Hear hear!!!

07-09-2006, 04:05 PM	#9
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 973	While you are correct about this money wasting problem, and I agree with a great deal of the things you have had to say about the game, it's not new to this version. But there has got to be a way to do something about it.

07-09-2006, 04:07 PM	#11
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 973	Then maybe the question is why did they sign him in the first place?

07-09-2006, 04:11 PM	#12
glenn Major Leagues Join Date: May 2006 Location: PA Posts: 407	Teams make bad moves all the time in real life. Why did the Reds sign Eric Milton? Why do teams overpay for mediocre talent? It's not perfect in real life, so it shouldn't be perfect in the game.

07-09-2006, 05:31 PM	#19
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	I think Mr. Capo makes a good point, but I confess my fundamental approach to life is kinda "half full" in that way. As we track bugs for future fixes, anything that causes a crash gets a top priority. Why? If the game crashes, it makes the game fundamentally unplayable. Beyond that, we tend to rate computer AI issues highly as well. I can't say whether this is the same way things have worked through previous iterations of the game. Beyond that, we're all working hard to address every issue that comes our way. Some things are harder than others. Clearly, computer AI and roster management are two of those things, or it wouldn't have been so problematic over the years. But, the fact that there are problems with the game doesn't mean that you can't gleefully ignore them until they are resolved, if you have that sort of personality. If it just ruins the experience too much for you, then yes, set the game aside if need be. In either case, I continue to urge you to post tech support threads with specific issues. Yes, even if you're sure it's been mentioned before, it doesn't hurt. I'd rather close or merge 50 threads that have already been logged then find out something important never got into our bug tracking system because it was discussed exclusively in General, and I never noticed it there. At the end of the day, people have varying levels of patience with a game, and that will never change. Some people, like Mr. Capo, can enjoy the game even with flaws, and will be happier still when more of the problems are resolved. For some people, this sim is such serious business that they can't abide the flaws in the AI, or whatever. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

07-09-2006, 05:40 PM	#20
Mr. Capo Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 240	battists, you're a born diplomat.