THEM vs US

[Giants44]

I think in the past few days this board has become clearly polarized.

On one hand we have those tagged as “fanboys” who for one reason or another really like the new game.

On the other hand we have the “whiners” who for one reason or another preferred the game the way it was, but were looking for improvements.

The happy people see the nice new look, the depth, the potential and are happy.

The un-happy people notice all the things that have been taken out and the lack of improvement on long term issues and are unhappy.

Although I like a lot about the new game, think it is a huge step forward aesthetically and definitely see the potential, I certainly lean more to the unhappy side. The interface, forced pitch by pitch, no sound, and the general trend of adding things I could care less about and removal of things I found crucial are my primary concerns. I am confident that many of these will be addressed by Markus in the coming months. He has a long steady track record and quite honestly that is the reason why I am still committed to OOTP and not simply moving on.

My biggest complaint of the last few days has been the hard core happys who continue to tell the unhappys at every turn that the game is great and if we don’t like it we can not play or go back to 6.5 and piss off and all that. Look all the unhappys have the right to have and voice their opinion about things they don’t like in the new game, just as much as the happys have the right to defend the game.

I personally am very tired of every thread that raises a concern littered with condescending posts something to the effect of “you must want a simple old game and the problem is you don’t have the intellectual capacity to enjoy the depth the new one” or “this is the way the game is now and to actually want some of the core game to be the same means you are scared of change.”

Most of the concerns raised by the unhappys are valid and should be addressed – having them addressed will make the game deeper and better for all concerned and then we can all be “happys”

[Claymore]

Well, there are clearly a host of problems with this release (but when aren't there problems?).

Let's take a look at some of the issues

*Some people have some very fair gripes. Anything not working as it should (i.e. as the manual states) needs to be fixed ASAP. Why the beta tester pool was not increased towards the end still boggles my mind.

*Some people aren't happy with the added complexity. I suspect this will die down as more people become familarly with the new system, frustration is talking here.

*Some people just don't like it because it is different then previous versions. In some cases, like the new interface, I suspect that this is here to stay. In other cases, such a having to now schedule exibition games, well, really, really hope this will change in the next patch.

*There are various features that have been removed/replaced that have upset people. The no stars was a big one, but being able to see ratings in the next patch I think will correct this. No trading block? That remains to be seen. I understand and like how the new system takes more time to neogociate with other teams, but there should be some way to "shop" a player you want to deal. Hopefully this will be looked at in a further patch.

I'm still on the fence whether or not I'm going to purchase or not. I'm going to wait for at least the next patch/demo, and see what happens. Basically, I'm using you guys to beta test this version for me. If some of the issues are cleared up (and I have every reason to believe they will) I will probably pick the game up. If not, I might skip this years version, stay with 6.5 and see what next year's version has to offer.

I suspect there are quite a few more people out there like me, so hopefully, we will see some fixes/improvements.

[<Pion>]

If both sides would treat each other in a civil manner, we wouldn't have an Us vs Them. Unfortunately there are some that go on the attack in the initial few posts of the thread and it turns things sour before anyone can address the real questions. The threads that have started civil seem to get good responses and information (and understanding that it's a valid problem)

[Claymore]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

If both sides would treat each other in a civil manner, we wouldn't have an Us vs Them. Unfortunately there are some that go on the attack in the initial few posts of the thread and it turns things sour before anyone can address the real questions. The threads that have started civil seem to get good responses and information (and understanding that it's a valid problem)

Problem is, you have one side saying ootp is terrrible, while the other says, no, this version is the best. Each side is feeding off the other's emotions.

The truth lies between the two.

[Giants44]

Originally Posted by Claymore

Problem is, you have one side saying ootp is terrrible, while the other says, no, this version is the best. Each side is feeding off the other's emotions.

The truth lies between the two.

I agree with this 100%

[bulldog55]

Can we merge all the pro- and con-fanboy threads into one superthread? Or maybe have a forum for stating your feelings on the whiners versus the fanboys?

[Killing Time]

I'm not even sure that this game really should be listed as a version of OOTP and that may be part of the problem. If this game was called SI Baseball it would be clear that this was a new game and not a new version of OOTP and that we should have no expectations based on the old game. The name OOTP2006 made us expect something of an upgraded version of what we had and that may be what many of us wanted but it isn't what we got or meant.

"Is this the answer to our prayers, is this what God has sent? Please understand this isn't what we meant."-Savatage

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I'm not even sure that this game really should be listed as a version of OOTP and that may be part of the problem. If this game was called SI Baseball it would be clear that this was a new game and not a new version of OOTP and that we should have no expectations based on the old game. The name OOTP2006 made us expect something of an upgraded version of what we had and that may be what many of us wanted but it isn't what we got or meant.

"Is this the answer to our prayers, is this what God has sent? Please understand this isn't what we meant."-Savatage

Gets it. Just think of it as a whole new game that's called OTTP.

[D Love]

Originally Posted by Claymore

*Some people aren't happy with the added complexity. I suspect this will die down as more people become familarly with the new system, frustration is talking here.

*Some people just don't like it because it is different then previous versions. In some cases, like the new interface, I suspect that this is here to stay. In other cases, such a having to now schedule exibition games, well, really, really hope this will change in the next patch.

I think this is the problem. Legit gripes aren't being blasted. A bug is a bug. However, I feel the majority of complaints are variants of the "this isn't OOTP 6.5, so it's terrible". The game has been out for 48 hours, so claims that it's horrendous because of UI, etc. are not very meritorious at this point. You simply can't make that determination in such a short time.

As for features missing, people have generally overdramatized the effects. I've read people claiming they "cannot" play this game without a trading block, easily assignable player pics, etc. I'd think that most people could not play the game if Markus had dropped depth charts, stat tracking, etc.

It's these people's unwillingness to seriously acknowledge the new features (no more fumbling around Catobase!) while pumping up some feature change as the be-all-and-end-all that is causing them to be targets.

I could see why people liked stars. But let's not act like the game is now useless without them. Ditto with the trading block. It should probably be added, but it's not like you can't make trades now.

It's all about perspective. 48 hours into OOTP 2006, many "whiners" seem to have lost perspective.

I'll be more concerned in mid-late June when complaints about UI, etc. are out there, because that will indicate serious problems rather than simply pointing out people's general unwillingness to accept change.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I'm not even sure that this game really should be listed as a version of OOTP and that may be part of the problem. If this game was called SI Baseball it would be clear that this was a new game and not a new version of OOTP and that we should have no expectations based on the old game. The name OOTP2006 made us expect something of an upgraded version of what we had and that may be what many of us wanted but it isn't what we got or meant.

SI & OOTP made it clear from the very beginning that this was going to be a rebuilt version of the game. If you go back and look at Markus' posts he said that he was basically starting from scratch with a new game engine and building an entirely new game.

This product was NEVER advertised as being an upgrade of version 6. NEVER.

If you don't like the game that's fine but it's dishonest to claim that no one knew this change was coming. It was known for quite a long time that this was going to be an entirely new version of the game. If you don't believe me then go back and look at Markus' posts from around the time of the merger.

Originally Posted by Giants44

My biggest complaint of the last few days has been the hard core happys who continue to tell the unhappys at every turn that the game is great and if we don’t like it we can not play or go back to 6.5 and piss off and all that. Look all the unhappys have the right to have and voice their opinion about things they don’t like in the new game, just as much as the happys have the right to defend the game.

That's just it, Giants. These people aren't saying it's "great." If you go read the posts, they disagree with the people who cry it's unplayable or that it's a horrible game because it doesn't have X feature in it which is the personal preference of the person who made the post.

Like <pion> said, there have been many discussions on this forum that have had civil tones from those on both sides of an issue. The problem is that when someone makes an initial post slamming the game and using terms like "unplayable" it invites harsh criticism because the game is NOT, in fact, unplayable. It may not be playable to that person's personal preference...but that doesn't mean it's unplayable. See the difference?

Then the person cries "I have the right to my opinion!" and we see the crap we've been seeing on the boards. Telling someone to look in the manual isn't telling them "RTFM, n00b!" It's saying what you're asking is covered in the manual that came with the game and the instructions to help you are in there. It's not an insult when unless it's REALLY typed "RTFM!!!"

Those who post their complaints cannot expect not to get disagreement from someone. There is no right on this board to post your issues without someone disagreeing with you on the point. To cry "it's my right to express my opinion" does nothing more than feed the flames that you don't really care about discussing the issue or getting all points of view; it implies you only care what you think and those that agree with you.

You've been negative on this game, Giants. I'm not surprised your POV is that people are on here telling others to STFU and related things but it's really not happening in the manner you think. Take a deep breath and a step back and you'll see the picture's not as dark as you think it is.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Claymore

Problem is, you have one side saying ootp is terrrible, while the other says, no, this version is the best. Each side is feeding off the other's emotions.

The truth lies between the two.

That wasn't what I was referring to (but not saying that it isn't true). I was referring to the name calling that occurs. When someone opens a thread with something like "fan boys need not respond", it's not a good start. Or if the first response is "quit your whining, you're the only one", then that's also not a good start. In both of these type of cases, it isn't one side saying it's great and another saying it's not, but rather who throws out the first name calling.

[bababui]

[plannine]

To me, (after only 3 days), im not even sure what the game is that im playing. 'The Sims for Baseball'? "Sports Management, World Baseball Edition"?. It might even be another sport, since i have yet to play a game. (I tried Eastside Hockey Manager, and felt the same - is there a hockey game in there?. I never found it)

More sometimes is Less. In this case (so far) it is alot less (fun).

Coming from 30+ years of APBA Baseball, OOTP4 was pretty good, and 5 was the greatest baseball game i'd ever seen for historical play. 6/6.5 was good for historical, but made purely fictional play interesting (for us non-fictional type gamers). But the key has always been, that it was easy and fun (for most people).

So far the new game is not easy - and has yet to be fun.

I'm sure the game will be a little more clear after a few tries, but for now, i will stick to OOTP5 for historical playing.

Put my checkmark in the whiner column.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I'm not even sure that this game really should be listed as a version of OOTP and that may be part of the problem. If this game was called SI Baseball it would be clear that this was a new game and not a new version of OOTP and that we should have no expectations based on the old game. The name OOTP2006 made us expect something of an upgraded version of what we had and that may be what many of us wanted but it isn't what we got or meant.

"Is this the answer to our prayers, is this what God has sent? Please understand this isn't what we meant."-Savatage

You have a point here, at this moment in time I don't believe that this is an advancement on the OOTP series. It is too like the Football / Championship Manager series.

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Gets it. Just think of it as a whole new game that's called OTTP.

So you're saying it's working as it was advertised to?

On the topic of the original poster... why do I feel this whole things is going 'round and 'round with no one listening to each other? I really haven't heard the "happy's" tell the "whinies" not to post. No one is stifling dissent, probably because no one is capable of doing that besides the mods. A person can come on a ciriticize to their heart's content.

What would be nice is that those who are critical do it civilly instead of "I HATE THIS GAME!!! IT'S THE WORST GAME EVER!!! ANYONE WHO LIKES IT SHUT UP AND DON'T REPLY, WHINIES ONLY!!!" Now, a person has the right to say such things but it's stupid to do so and it's only asking for a fight. You can argue it shouldn't provoke a fight. You can argue the Happies should ignore them (and many of us having fun with the game don't even care what's happening on these boards anymore all that much). But if you've been around here you know people will react strongly to such invective. They always have and they always will and it's not just an OOTP thing. Anyhow, feel free to raise a beef in any way you choose but don't act surprised if rude behavior gets responded to in a similar fashion.

It would be my dream if everyone would conduct themselves politely and responsibly. And true, people shouldn't rise to the bait when it's offered. When someone is just blowing off steam folks should just ignore them; most people are reasonable and rational at their heart and when they've calmed down a bit things usually sort themselves out. Plus if someone is being a disruption that's a task for the moderators to deal with, not the "happies." But communication is and always has been a two way street and the speaker cannot dodge all responsiblity for starting a flamewar simply because they claim the right to say whatever they want whenever they want and how ever they want.

Ultimately, we would all do better to chill a little. The "whinies" and the "happies" should both try and relax a little and give each other a break. Just because you're pissed something isn't in there does not automatically translate that we all feel that way any more than just because some are happy with interface that that automatically means we all are.

Let's stop pointing fingers and spend more time playing.

[rdklein]

Yawn.

[plannine]

Originally Posted by rdklein

Yawn.

Cover your mouth!!!!!

[Cooleyvol]

First version that I've opened on release day and not opened since.

I'll await the patch, get it, then see what's changed.

Until then, I won't crack it open.

As far as I'm concerned, V6 still works fine for me. I might have spent my last dollar on OOTP.

[James Petersen]

I played no. 5 with a buddie forever, then 5.5, then didn't buy 6 or 6.5 cause I wanted MORE MORE MORE and now am very excited to start learning this new version cause it's NEW. Even if people say they wont play it until it's patched, take the time to get to know the UI...there's a lot there and you will be totally ready for games if you spend the downtime getting used to the new interface.

[CareerOver]

Hey, I think it's perfectly legit if the "whiner" group wants to stick with 5, 6, and/or 6.5(1). But considering that a total rewrite or "back to the old" interface is probably out of the question, if I were in the so-called whiner group, I'd either try to accept this new software after a while, wait for the patch, or stick to the old boards. Because truthfully, it's impossible for Markus to please everyone that has an opinion.

I think the more you play, the more you may change your perceptions of the game. Maybe, maybe not....at least try if you put money down, otherwise it's a sunk cost.