Rain Delays and Pitcher Fatigue

AliG · 04-25-2002, 04:58 AM

I have recently noticed that pitchers get fatigued if there is a rain delay. I have had both Roy Oswalt and Pedro Martinez get tired and turn red after 30 pitches or so due to a rain delay. It happens in sims to. Top pitchers have been pulled after 3 or so innings due to fatigue when they had only thrown 30 or so pitches. This only happens when there has been a rain delay.

Does the rain delay contributre to their fatigue?

cjlawl · 04-25-2002, 05:14 AM

I have had pitchers turn red after a rain delay. I would contribute it to his arm getting stiff during the rain delay.

henry296 · 04-25-2002, 05:14 AM

Yes it does. Often IRL, often a long rain delay pitchers will not return because they will tighten up.

Todd

AliG · 04-25-2002, 05:38 AM

I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right

J P Falcon · 04-25-2002, 05:44 AM

Ali, when a pitcher is forced to sit for a rain delay, his arm becomes stiff. There is a fear that the pitcher will injure his arm if he tries to loosen up all over again. If you watch major league baseball games, you will see that the starters do not come back after a rain delay. Believe me, what OOTP does is consistant with Major League Baseball.

AliG · 04-25-2002, 05:45 AM

So they arent allowed to warm up again after a delay?

Hammer755 · 04-25-2002, 05:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AliG:
I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right<hr /></blockquote>Based on my experience, I think the CPU does a good job with its decisions of whether or not to return a pitcher to the game following a rain delay. I have seen a few instances when the pitcher stays in the game after a brief rain delay (20 minutes or so), but usually the pitcher is removed after the delay.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AliG:
So they arent allowed to warm up again after a delay?<hr /></blockquote>It's not a matter of whether they are allowed to warm up, they typically cannot physically do it. Once they've rested for a period of time, they cannot loosen their arm back up to the point of pitching in a major league game.

[ 04-25-2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]

bkurtz · 04-25-2002, 06:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AliG:
I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right<hr /></blockquote>well, i don't know if it is right or not, but it sure is realistic as the same actually happened yesterday with just 2.2-3 innings played.
<a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220424117" target="_blank">http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220424117</a>

Henry · 04-25-2002, 06:32 AM

As an amatuer pitcher afew years back (ok, a LOT of years back LOL) I can vouch for the justification to remove a pitcher after any long delay - even a long inning sometimes. With me, after about 20 minutes of not throwing, my shoulder would start to cramp. Remember the act of pitching, like any exercise, is actually somewhat "damaging" the muscle tissue (causing the pain) which the begins to react by sending white blood cells to the area - taking days to repair. In a long delay, this "repairing" already begins, and even if you were going to warm up again, you wouldn't get to where you were - not without a day or two off.

Given today's contracts and salaries, it's just not worth it to risk causing permanent damage, so managers usually pull the guy in situations like this. A rare exception might be if the delay is late and the pitcher is on some kind of a record run...

Steve Kuffrey · 04-25-2002, 06:59 AM

I don't think I have EVER seen a ML pitcher return to the mound after any rain delay, too much can happen to a pitchers arm and it is not worth the risk. So from that point of view this is handled exactly as I have seen it in MLB.

Delgadodawg · 04-25-2002, 07:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't think I have EVER seen a ML pitcher return to the mound after any rain delay, too much can happen to a pitchers arm and it is not worth the risk. So from that point of view this is handled exactly as I have seen it in MLB.
<hr /></blockquote>Not Quite

In my opinion the one thing that needs to be tweaked in the rain delay/pitcher fatigue issue is that after a rain delay in the early innings a pitcher will come back(depending on the length of the delay)pitch an inning or two and THEN become tired.
I play out quite a few of my games and this happens quite often.
I have no problem with a pitcher becoming tired because of a rain delay, this is realistic as pitchers arms become stiff....but it is very rare to have a situation where there is a rain delay in the 2nd inning, the starter comes back into the game only to get pulled an inning or two later because he is tired. If this were the case the manager would have never risked putting the starter back in the game.

[ 04-25-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Delgadodawg ]

Bald Eagles · 04-26-2002, 12:01 PM

Jon Lieber of the Cubs usually comes back out after rain delays, especially if it's before the 4th inning. He came back after one this year (top 5th, 1 out) and he finished the 5th inning to qualify for the win. He did not come back to pitch the 6th inning (He did get the win though).

CMH · 04-27-2002, 06:04 AM

what i usually do to determine whether or not a player will become tired very soon after a delay is add the number of minutes of the delay to his pitch count.

so if my pitcher has thrown 50 pitches through 4 innings and the rain delay is 30 minutes...I say to myself my pitcher's pitch count is now the equivalent of 80 pitches...he will begin to tire soon. so i usually give the guy one more inning or just pull him (this is if he is not tired after the delay)

i've found that adding the minutes to pitch count has been nearly 100% accurate. and if you do it yourself you will find that it holds true.

i'm not sayin that Markus found a cheap way to implement fatigue in a rain delay. I'm only stating this b/c it makes some sense. you must consider that it takes maybe 1-2 minutes to throw your next pitch. so at a constant rate, a pitcher is probably throwing a pitch every 1.5 minutes. (assuming he isnt Steve Trachsel) by sitting out during a rain delay, you must assume that your arm and body will assume that it is being worked out the very same way. so after 30 minutes of inactivity, your body would have assumed that your arm threw nearly 30 pitches. well wateva, its all in theory.

markprior22 · 04-27-2002, 06:12 AM

It is VERY rare for a major league pitcher to return after a delay. After Lieber returned a couple of weeks ago, he had to miss a turn due to a sore elbow. In OOTP, just because the pitcher is tired doesn't mean he can't continue to pitch. I have an 8 yr old son who likes to do crazy things with OOTP. He has had Pedro Martinez start over 100 games per season and amass over 1000 strikeouts in a season. Obviously, he is tired most of the time, but I have seen him pitch 15 innings (all while tired) and strike out 20 or more.

CubsSox · 04-27-2002, 07:13 AM

I've actually seen quite a few starters return from a rain delay, but they usually just finish the inning and they are then taken out.

CMH · 04-27-2002, 07:39 AM

markprior...wat was Pedros ERA???

usually when i leave a guy in when he is tired, hitters hit em hard. yea i get K's too, but usually the hitters pick up a load of hits.

SaberGrey · 05-16-2002, 10:43 AM

Lon Lieber did come back after a rain delay of over 30 minutes, but he missed his next start due to a sore arm. It was never definitively said whether the soreness was due to pitching after the delay.

Pitchers do return to the mound depending on how long the delay lasts. Generally, the longer the delay, the less likely the pitcher will return.

Teams have pitching rotations because pitchers cannot start every day. They usually need the 4-5 days rest before starting another game. If a pitcher has been pitching in a game and it rains for a long delay, he arm tightens and he needs rest just as if he had pitched in a non-rain delayed game. The only difference is the rain ended his day, not the manager. ;-)

The_Offspring187 · 05-17-2002, 05:50 PM

Last year there was a rain delay in like the 4th or 5th inning that lasted over an hour and 15 minutes. Jon Lieber returned and finished the game, a complete game shutout, a one hitter. The game was at Cinergy Field against the Reds. The next day Kerry Wood pitched a one-hitter, making Lieber and Wood the first pitchers to throw back to back one-hitters since the 70s. God I miss those days.

Joe Carter called him the "Rain Man" the other day because he ALWAYS seems to pitch when it rains.

Jason Moyer · 05-18-2002, 04:10 AM

The longer a game goes, the more fatigued a pitcher is. This is simply a fact of baseball. From the moment a starting pitcher warms up before the game begins, there is a 2-3 hour window in which that pitcher can pitch effectively that day.

If a 2 hour rain delay occurs in any game, the starting pitcher is gone. If a 1 hour delay occurs after an hour or more of the game has been played, the starting pitcher is gone.

An interesting side effect to this is that the ever-lengthening games in real baseball are the reason why there are so few complete games. Pitchers now are better conditioned and have more endurance than they did in the 60's, but they still have the same 2 hour window in which they are able to be effective. If the average length of a game is 3 hours, you'll find that most pitchers should last about 6 innings - which is right in line with real baseball.

As far as how endurance is modelled in games, I have to give a nod to High Heat. You can have a starting pitcher throw 60 pitches in that game, but if the game is near the virtual 2 hour mark his arm is going to turn into jelly. I actually base my pitching changes in that game on the current elapsed time in the box score - well a combination...100 pitches or 2 hours, whichever comes first. Either of those should mean that your pitchers arm is close to becoming jelly.

Jason

HMKRich · 05-18-2002, 07:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by markprior22:
It is VERY rare for a major league pitcher to return after a delay. After Lieber returned a couple of weeks ago, he had to miss a turn due to a sore elbow. In OOTP, just because the pitcher is tired doesn't mean he can't continue to pitch. I have an 8 yr old son who likes to do crazy things with OOTP. He has had Pedro Martinez start over 100 games per season and amass over 1000 strikeouts in a season. Obviously, he is tired most of the time, but I have seen him pitch 15 innings (all while tired) and strike out 20 or more.<hr /></blockquote>How does he do it???
I've never had pedro start more than 23 games in a season. Still, he avgd 19-2 over his career.

Maybe I've been spoiled by the Braves, but I don't think it's unusual to see 20+ pitches after a rain delay. Braves pitchers throw [I]during /I] the delay, instead of warming back up afterwards. I recall seeing John Smoltz allow 1 run over 9 innings after an hour and 45 min rain delay in the 4th or 5th inning.

[ 05-19-2002, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: HMKRich ]

04-25-2002, 04:58 AM	#1
AliG Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 56	Rain Delays and Pitcher Fatigue I have recently noticed that pitchers get fatigued if there is a rain delay. I have had both Roy Oswalt and Pedro Martinez get tired and turn red after 30 pitches or so due to a rain delay. It happens in sims to. Top pitchers have been pulled after 3 or so innings due to fatigue when they had only thrown 30 or so pitches. This only happens when there has been a rain delay. Does the rain delay contributre to their fatigue?

04-25-2002, 05:14 AM	#2
cjlawl Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cape Coral , Fla Posts: 97	I have had pitchers turn red after a rain delay. I would contribute it to his arm getting stiff during the rain delay. __________________ WBL-Caracas Diablos

04-25-2002, 05:50 AM	#7
Hammer755 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,348	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AliG: <strong>I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on my experience, I think the CPU does a good job with its decisions of whether or not to return a pitcher to the game following a rain delay. I have seen a few instances when the pitcher stays in the game after a brief rain delay (20 minutes or so), but usually the pitcher is removed after the delay. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AliG: <strong>So they arent allowed to warm up again after a delay?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not a matter of whether they are allowed to warm up, they typically cannot physically do it. Once they've rested for a period of time, they cannot loosen their arm back up to the point of pitching in a major league game. <small>[ 04-25-2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]</small>

04-25-2002, 06:03 AM	#8
bkurtz Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 161	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AliG: <strong>I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, i don't know if it is right or not, but it sure is realistic as the same actually happened yesterday with just 2.2-3 innings played. <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220424117" target="_blank">http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220424117</a>

04-25-2002, 06:59 AM	#10
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	I don't think I have EVER seen a ML pitcher return to the mound after any rain delay, too much can happen to a pitchers arm and it is not worth the risk. So from that point of view this is handled exactly as I have seen it in MLB. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

04-25-2002, 05:14 AM	#3
henry296 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 514	Yes it does. Often IRL, often a long rain delay pitchers will not return because they will tighten up. Todd

04-25-2002, 05:38 AM	#4
AliG Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 56	I;m not talking onc in a while after a rain delay. I'm talking both starters after every delay. Surely this isnt right

04-25-2002, 05:44 AM	#5
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	Ali, when a pitcher is forced to sit for a rain delay, his arm becomes stiff. There is a fear that the pitcher will injure his arm if he tries to loosen up all over again. If you watch major league baseball games, you will see that the starters do not come back after a rain delay. Believe me, what OOTP does is consistant with Major League Baseball.

04-25-2002, 05:45 AM	#6
AliG Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 56	So they arent allowed to warm up again after a delay?

04-25-2002, 06:32 AM	#9
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	As an amatuer pitcher afew years back (ok, a LOT of years back LOL) I can vouch for the justification to remove a pitcher after any long delay - even a long inning sometimes. With me, after about 20 minutes of not throwing, my shoulder would start to cramp. Remember the act of pitching, like any exercise, is actually somewhat "damaging" the muscle tissue (causing the pain) which the begins to react by sending white blood cells to the area - taking days to repair. In a long delay, this "repairing" already begins, and even if you were going to warm up again, you wouldn't get to where you were - not without a day or two off. Given today's contracts and salaries, it's just not worth it to risk causing permanent damage, so managers usually pull the guy in situations like this. A rare exception might be if the delay is late and the pitcher is on some kind of a record run...

04-25-2002, 07:06 AM	#11
Delgadodawg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Vancouver Posts: 800	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I have EVER seen a ML pitcher return to the mound after any rain delay, too much can happen to a pitchers arm and it is not worth the risk. So from that point of view this is handled exactly as I have seen it in MLB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not Quite In my opinion the one thing that needs to be tweaked in the rain delay/pitcher fatigue issue is that after a rain delay in the early innings a pitcher will come back(depending on the length of the delay)pitch an inning or two and THEN become tired. I play out quite a few of my games and this happens quite often. I have no problem with a pitcher becoming tired because of a rain delay, this is realistic as pitchers arms become stiff....but it is very rare to have a situation where there is a rain delay in the 2nd inning, the starter comes back into the game only to get pulled an inning or two later because he is tired. If this were the case the manager would have never risked putting the starter back in the game. <small>[ 04-25-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Delgadodawg ]</small>

04-26-2002, 12:01 PM	#12
Bald Eagles Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Waveland & Sheffield Posts: 402	Jon Lieber of the Cubs usually comes back out after rain delays, especially if it's before the 4th inning. He came back after one this year (top 5th, 1 out) and he finished the 5th inning to qualify for the win. He did not come back to pitch the 6th inning (He did get the win though).

04-27-2002, 06:04 AM	#13
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	what i usually do to determine whether or not a player will become tired very soon after a delay is add the number of minutes of the delay to his pitch count. so if my pitcher has thrown 50 pitches through 4 innings and the rain delay is 30 minutes...I say to myself my pitcher's pitch count is now the equivalent of 80 pitches...he will begin to tire soon. so i usually give the guy one more inning or just pull him (this is if he is not tired after the delay) i've found that adding the minutes to pitch count has been nearly 100% accurate. and if you do it yourself you will find that it holds true. i'm not sayin that Markus found a cheap way to implement fatigue in a rain delay. I'm only stating this b/c it makes some sense. you must consider that it takes maybe 1-2 minutes to throw your next pitch. so at a constant rate, a pitcher is probably throwing a pitch every 1.5 minutes. (assuming he isnt Steve Trachsel) by sitting out during a rain delay, you must assume that your arm and body will assume that it is being worked out the very same way. so after 30 minutes of inactivity, your body would have assumed that your arm threw nearly 30 pitches. well wateva, its all in theory.

04-27-2002, 06:12 AM	#14
markprior22 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, illinois Posts: 1,234	It is VERY rare for a major league pitcher to return after a delay. After Lieber returned a couple of weeks ago, he had to miss a turn due to a sore elbow. In OOTP, just because the pitcher is tired doesn't mean he can't continue to pitch. I have an 8 yr old son who likes to do crazy things with OOTP. He has had Pedro Martinez start over 100 games per season and amass over 1000 strikeouts in a season. Obviously, he is tired most of the time, but I have seen him pitch 15 innings (all while tired) and strike out 20 or more.

04-27-2002, 07:13 AM	#15
CubsSox Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 206	I've actually seen quite a few starters return from a rain delay, but they usually just finish the inning and they are then taken out. __________________ It's me... Chae!

04-27-2002, 07:39 AM	#16
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	markprior...wat was Pedros ERA??? usually when i leave a guy in when he is tired, hitters hit em hard. yea i get K's too, but usually the hitters pick up a load of hits.

05-16-2002, 10:43 AM	#17
SaberGrey Bat Boy Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 13	Lon Lieber did come back after a rain delay of over 30 minutes, but he missed his next start due to a sore arm. It was never definitively said whether the soreness was due to pitching after the delay. Pitchers do return to the mound depending on how long the delay lasts. Generally, the longer the delay, the less likely the pitcher will return. Teams have pitching rotations because pitchers cannot start every day. They usually need the 4-5 days rest before starting another game. If a pitcher has been pitching in a game and it rains for a long delay, he arm tightens and he needs rest just as if he had pitched in a non-rain delayed game. The only difference is the rain ended his day, not the manager. ;-)

05-17-2002, 05:50 PM	#18
The_Offspring187 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 480	Last year there was a rain delay in like the 4th or 5th inning that lasted over an hour and 15 minutes. Jon Lieber returned and finished the game, a complete game shutout, a one hitter. The game was at Cinergy Field against the Reds. The next day Kerry Wood pitched a one-hitter, making Lieber and Wood the first pitchers to throw back to back one-hitters since the 70s. God I miss those days. Joe Carter called him the "Rain Man" the other day because he ALWAYS seems to pitch when it rains.

05-18-2002, 04:10 AM	#19
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,067	The longer a game goes, the more fatigued a pitcher is. This is simply a fact of baseball. From the moment a starting pitcher warms up before the game begins, there is a 2-3 hour window in which that pitcher can pitch effectively that day. If a 2 hour rain delay occurs in any game, the starting pitcher is gone. If a 1 hour delay occurs after an hour or more of the game has been played, the starting pitcher is gone. An interesting side effect to this is that the ever-lengthening games in real baseball are the reason why there are so few complete games. Pitchers now are better conditioned and have more endurance than they did in the 60's, but they still have the same 2 hour window in which they are able to be effective. If the average length of a game is 3 hours, you'll find that most pitchers should last about 6 innings - which is right in line with real baseball. As far as how endurance is modelled in games, I have to give a nod to High Heat. You can have a starting pitcher throw 60 pitches in that game, but if the game is near the virtual 2 hour mark his arm is going to turn into jelly. I actually base my pitching changes in that game on the current elapsed time in the box score - well a combination...100 pitches or 2 hours, whichever comes first. Either of those should mean that your pitchers arm is close to becoming jelly. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

05-18-2002, 07:57 PM	#20
HMKRich Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia USA Posts: 21	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by markprior22: <strong>It is VERY rare for a major league pitcher to return after a delay. After Lieber returned a couple of weeks ago, he had to miss a turn due to a sore elbow. In OOTP, just because the pitcher is tired doesn't mean he can't continue to pitch. I have an 8 yr old son who likes to do crazy things with OOTP. He has had Pedro Martinez start over 100 games per season and amass over 1000 strikeouts in a season. Obviously, he is tired most of the time, but I have seen him pitch 15 innings (all while tired) and strike out 20 or more.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does he do it??? I've never had pedro start more than 23 games in a season. Still, he avgd 19-2 over his career. Maybe I've been spoiled by the Braves, but I don't think it's unusual to see 20+ pitches after a rain delay. Braves pitchers throw [I]during /I] the delay, instead of warming back up afterwards. I recall seeing John Smoltz allow 1 run over 9 innings after an hour and 45 min rain delay in the 4th or 5th inning. <small>[ 05-19-2002, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: HMKRich ]</small>