Some thought about OOTP 4 and OOTP 5

Markus Heinsohn · 07-07-2002, 01:16 PM

I have already said it in another thread, but I think it's worthy to dedicate an own thread to this:

AI and challange issues:

First I feel the game is rather challenging, but it could be better. The roster AI and the AI of evaluating player talent plays a big role here. I have made a lot of research lately (funny, doing research on my own game) on OOTP 4, and I have come to the conclusion that it will be necessary to totally re-code parts of the game for OOTP 5.

These parts will be:

- Financial AI (Singing free agents, draft picks)
- Minor league management AI
- Lineup/roster AI
- Trading AI

Also, what will be re-developed will be the player development algorythms. I agree that there are more players that follow predictable careers than in real life. Although I can already hear people say "Damn, my star 1B stopped hitting for no reason, MVP two seasons ago, now just a pinch-hitter at best... this sucks!"

Anyway, in the past years OOTP has grown to a point where I feel it's time to "get back to the roots" and really enhance the basic element of a baseball simulation: AI

That does not mean that OOTP 5 will be just a tweak, it will still contain a lot of useful new features. But I have the feeling that there are some "loose ropes" in OOTP 4 that need to get re-attached in order to give you what you want: The best baseball sim possible!

Thoughts?

PS: The 4.1 update will have better AI as well, but it would take too much time to recode stuff for the update, so I'll leave that for OOTP 5!

CMH · 07-07-2002, 01:38 PM

i also said this in the other thread, but feel that maybe i should post it here too...

all the points you feel you need to address, i feel the same way.

i think this game is by far greater than any other baseball game i've played, but i'm greedy and i want more.

so improving the AI is the perfect step. i really feel the AI needs to evaluate players better. thats what all this comes down to.

financials, minor leagues, lineups, trading...its all related to AI evaluation of players.

if your goal is to improve it then i feel you are taking the right step.

Steely Glint · 07-07-2002, 01:56 PM

Sounds good. Can we get better more and sorts and better roster and transaction screen data display too? And sticky sorts?

Jermanfu · 07-07-2002, 01:59 PM

Outstanding news Markus. Just the fact that you are very dedicated to making this the best baseball sim out there (Actually, this just means creating a bigger gap b/w you and #2 since OOTP already is #1) shows you are giving the people what they want.

Nuk · 07-07-2002, 02:04 PM

I think the re-development of the player algorthims is a great idea. To have a couple of Brady Anderson's and Bret Boone - type player on your team is good. Of course - the only thing to make remember is the a majority of players do tend to follow the bell curve of a career - maybe this could be incorporated into the "consistency" rating (or preferably - a hidden rating) - since no one knows who thes odd players should be.

As for AI - I applaud your efforts, and I know you'll do a good job - but no AI is perfect, and I'm sure someone will find a way to cheat the computer mind. Considering some of the decisions in baseball today, trying to figure out what some GMs and commissioners are thinking is almost impossible.

Of course there's always Internet leagues for real GMs and real challenges.

Finally, thanks for all your hard work on this series. I've been hooked on this since OOTP2, and I know I have never received as much value from a game as this one. Considering how a lot of PC sports games are going - it's good to have a strong community of utility-makers and roster folks as well.

Malleus Dei · 07-07-2002, 02:15 PM

Some thoughts on improvement:

AI, yes.

Improved and sticky sorts, yes.

The ability to see player ratings on the Transaction page.

The ability to filter the main roster by position and level just as you can on the trade screen.

When financials are turned off, no salaries or dollar figures should be visible anywhere in the game.

Named managers who have their own personally specific tendencies and who can be hired and fired.

The ability to set draft priorities (starting pitching, hitting, speed, defense, power, relief pitching, OBA, etc.) for teams - even AI managed teams - so that they have different preferences when they draft.

Arbitration. Toggleable.

Rule V draft. Also toggleable.

Argicee · 07-07-2002, 02:21 PM

Adding toggleable full pitch mode would take this game to a whole new level.

Tiger Fan · 07-07-2002, 02:30 PM

edit Not articulated as well as it could have been. Thats what I get for posting from work when busy.

Bagpipes5 · 07-07-2002, 02:36 PM

My hopes are that the revamped minor league system will include a number of things. Among those would be a 40-man roster, Rule V draft, a waiver system, and the further distinguishment between major and minor league contracts.

tbshaff · 07-07-2002, 02:39 PM

Markus, this is admirable. It is always necessary to go back to the basics and see how those can be improved upon. It is so easy to get caught up in the "extra's" ( not to say that they aren't important at all).

I think that player development; rookie generation are always worth looking at. I think that there has been major improvement in the development through the minors, but I agree that it is still fairly predictable.

Talent is always a major contributer to how a player will pan out over the long run. But the "attributes" of that player can really be the determining factor. I am not sure how you have these current attributes coded in relationship to the player's development, but having attributes that describe how teachable a player is, if he is a "head case", how hard he works, is he in it for the money--or like so many, does his performance start going down when the big contract is finally signed.

Focusing on what you mentioned will keep you way ahead of your competition and over time may even increase your market share. Lets face it, there are many baseball fans out there that may buy a game such as this, but decide not to just because they think it won't be realistic. They would be surprised right now if they were to buy OOTP4, but if OOTP5 is promoted as a major step toward mimicking real life unpredictability, then that market may be in your sights.

Thanks for your endless efforts and providing me with a hobby that sometimes beats the real thing!! (that's assuming you never make it so realistic that the season is ended because of a strike!!! ..................... hmmmm)

Malleus Dei · 07-07-2002, 02:50 PM

I left out adjustable sized rosters. As we talked about in previous threads, the roster size in baseball has not always been set at 25.

Roster size should be adjustable via League Setup for anywhere from 20 to 40.

And adding waivers is a good idea.

But pitch-by-pitch mode? No.

Crapshoot · 07-07-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Some thoughts on improvement:

AI, yes.

Improved and sticky sorts, yes.

The ability to see player ratings on the Transaction page.

The ability to filter the main roster by position and level just as you can on the trade screen.

When financials are turned off, no salaries or dollar figures should be visible anywhere in the game.

Named managers who have their own personally specific tendencies and who can be hired and fired.

The ability to set draft priorities (starting pitching, hitting, speed, defense, power, relief pitching, OBA, etc.) for teams - even AI managed teams - so that they have different preferences when they draft.

Arbitration. Toggleable.

Rule V draft. Also toggleable.

I agree; all of the above are good ideas that I think most of us would like to see incorporated. When it comes to the AI, I would almost like it to now have a player evaluation system solely based on percieved talent; I would like to see the AI incorporate performance into its evaluation, because there are the random cases who suddenly end up being good. Basically, a .390 hitting regular should not be sent down to the minors, no matter what.

Malleus Dei · 07-07-2002, 03:50 PM

Yes, if by perceived talent you mean talent as perceived by that team's current scouts.

Cooleyvol · 07-07-2002, 03:56 PM

Good to hear!!

The main weakness of v4 that I have seen is development of minor leaguers. Pitchers in particular.

elfdog428 · 07-07-2002, 04:48 PM

All that I have heard looks and sounds good, but there are few things for those of us who do like to play the individual games.

Ability to pick off the runner

double steal of home plate

ability to hit and run in any count

ability to steal on any count

visit the mound function by both manager and pitching coach

Smart computer managers, that could be achieved if the above suggestion of real coaches with abilities was added.

That is all I can think of for now, but Markus, I got to say, this is the best game I have seen short of Championship Manager, but this is definitely getting there

Kelric · 07-07-2002, 05:18 PM

I second elfdog's reccomendations for those of us who play each game.

I also love most of the other ideas thrown in here, especially hiring/firing of manager's with their own personalities. Keeping track of their records when you hire them would be cool too. Be able to see where they have managed, what their record was, stuff like that. And every few years maybe the top five minor league managers (development skill wise, say - both ratings with Very Good or better) come into the pool for major league jobs.

And AI minor league management tweaks are necessary. They don't do a good job clearing the way for their star prospects in the minors.

One aggravating side note about the AI's trading skills - when they put a player on the block but then declare they refuse to trade him, even for a few star players. Can you say argh? I knew you could.

But aside from all that, heh, this is the best computer game of any type I have played in a long time. Probably the best since Europa Universalis or Unreal Tournament, and that is saying something.

Zoso · 07-07-2002, 05:19 PM

I would like more control of the financial part of the game. That means I can turn off or on any part of it.

I would like to be able to lock all parts of the finance settings so the computer can't change them.

I would like to be able to be set the amount of money in the game by era.

I would like to be able to lock the market size so it does not change. This is a big one for me if you can't give other controls of the finance game.

I would like better docs for the financial part of the game.

Dargone · 07-07-2002, 05:31 PM

Sounds good Markus. I look forward to it

Fred · 07-07-2002, 08:42 PM

This is my wish list for v5-8 (I know some of the things I want would be to hard to do in a year or 2). Okay I know you can't trade draft picks in the MLB but it would be a great feature to this game. Another great feature would be the ability to pursue players from 3rd world countries and Japan and other places and try to get them to enter the US as a free agent. Also the ability to get a scouting crew and make a rating for how much they are trusted and respespected by the players and thier families by their origin, their intelligence and whether or not they speek the native language. To do that you basicilly need a resumey for the scouts. You also could have an option where you give money to the players village or town to make improvments. Another great option would be to have to hire a manager and the option to resign the coaches and manager befor their contract expires. You could also add incetnives to the players contracts. You also have to sign your draft picks. Another great feature would be minor league coaches, standings and finances. So you might have a crappy major league team but have an amazing minor league team leaving some of your players as trade bait and you could make some money. That would add a whole new dimension to the game.
I know some my ideas would take years to develop and my never be able to be developed but I just want to put my thoughts out there. Markus thanks for all of the work you put into this game you are currently developing a game and tweaking another one. You are one of if not the hardest working person I have the pleasure of knowing.

Khaos · 07-07-2002, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Argicee
Adding toggleable full pitch mode would take this game to a whole new level.

YES YES YES YES

07-07-2002, 01:59 PM	#4
Jermanfu All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA. Posts: 899	Outstanding news Markus. Just the fact that you are very dedicated to making this the best baseball sim out there (Actually, this just means creating a bigger gap b/w you and #2 since OOTP already is #1) shows you are giving the people what they want. __________________ "I took the two most expensive asprins in history." - Wally Pipp on his decision to sit out a game with a headache which let Lou Gehrig into the lineup for the first time. http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/Jermanfu/

07-07-2002, 02:30 PM	#8
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	edit Not articulated as well as it could have been. Thats what I get for posting from work when busy. __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles Last edited by Tiger Fan; 07-07-2002 at 05:54 PM.

07-07-2002, 02:39 PM	#10
tbshaff Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 57	Markus, this is admirable. It is always necessary to go back to the basics and see how those can be improved upon. It is so easy to get caught up in the "extra's" ( not to say that they aren't important at all). I think that player development; rookie generation are always worth looking at. I think that there has been major improvement in the development through the minors, but I agree that it is still fairly predictable. Talent is always a major contributer to how a player will pan out over the long run. But the "attributes" of that player can really be the determining factor. I am not sure how you have these current attributes coded in relationship to the player's development, but having attributes that describe how teachable a player is, if he is a "head case", how hard he works, is he in it for the money--or like so many, does his performance start going down when the big contract is finally signed. Focusing on what you mentioned will keep you way ahead of your competition and over time may even increase your market share. Lets face it, there are many baseball fans out there that may buy a game such as this, but decide not to just because they think it won't be realistic. They would be surprised right now if they were to buy OOTP4, but if OOTP5 is promoted as a major step toward mimicking real life unpredictability, then that market may be in your sights. Thanks for your endless efforts and providing me with a hobby that sometimes beats the real thing!! (that's assuming you never make it so realistic that the season is ended because of a strike!!! ..................... hmmmm) __________________ TBShaff

07-07-2002, 04:48 PM	#15
elfdog428 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 76	All that I have heard looks and sounds good, but there are few things for those of us who do like to play the individual games. Ability to pick off the runner double steal of home plate ability to hit and run in any count ability to steal on any count visit the mound function by both manager and pitching coach Smart computer managers, that could be achieved if the above suggestion of real coaches with abilities was added. That is all I can think of for now, but Markus, I got to say, this is the best game I have seen short of Championship Manager, but this is definitely getting there __________________ Indians and Pirates Fan UFBL Pirates

07-07-2002, 05:31 PM	#18
Dargone Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Interwebs Posts: 2,862	Sounds good Markus. I look forward to it __________________ I was never one to patiently pick up broken fragments and glue them together again and tell myself that the mended whole was as good as new. What is broken is broken -- and I'd rather remember it as it was at its best than mend it and see the broken places as long as I lived.-Margaret Mitchell

07-07-2002, 01:16 PM	#1
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	Some thought about OOTP 4 and OOTP 5 I have already said it in another thread, but I think it's worthy to dedicate an own thread to this: AI and challange issues: First I feel the game is rather challenging, but it could be better. The roster AI and the AI of evaluating player talent plays a big role here. I have made a lot of research lately (funny, doing research on my own game) on OOTP 4, and I have come to the conclusion that it will be necessary to totally re-code parts of the game for OOTP 5. These parts will be: - Financial AI (Singing free agents, draft picks) - Minor league management AI - Lineup/roster AI - Trading AI Also, what will be re-developed will be the player development algorythms. I agree that there are more players that follow predictable careers than in real life. Although I can already hear people say "Damn, my star 1B stopped hitting for no reason, MVP two seasons ago, now just a pinch-hitter at best... this sucks!" Anyway, in the past years OOTP has grown to a point where I feel it's time to "get back to the roots" and really enhance the basic element of a baseball simulation: AI That does not mean that OOTP 5 will be just a tweak, it will still contain a lot of useful new features. But I have the feeling that there are some "loose ropes" in OOTP 4 that need to get re-attached in order to give you what you want: The best baseball sim possible! Thoughts? PS: The 4.1 update will have better AI as well, but it would take too much time to recode stuff for the update, so I'll leave that for OOTP 5!

07-07-2002, 01:38 PM	#2
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	i also said this in the other thread, but feel that maybe i should post it here too... all the points you feel you need to address, i feel the same way. i think this game is by far greater than any other baseball game i've played, but i'm greedy and i want more. so improving the AI is the perfect step. i really feel the AI needs to evaluate players better. thats what all this comes down to. financials, minor leagues, lineups, trading...its all related to AI evaluation of players. if your goal is to improve it then i feel you are taking the right step.

07-07-2002, 01:56 PM	#3
Steely Glint Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 430	Sounds good. Can we get better more and sorts and better roster and transaction screen data display too? And sticky sorts?

07-07-2002, 02:04 PM	#5
Nuk Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 215	I think the re-development of the player algorthims is a great idea. To have a couple of Brady Anderson's and Bret Boone - type player on your team is good. Of course - the only thing to make remember is the a majority of players do tend to follow the bell curve of a career - maybe this could be incorporated into the "consistency" rating (or preferably - a hidden rating) - since no one knows who thes odd players should be. As for AI - I applaud your efforts, and I know you'll do a good job - but no AI is perfect, and I'm sure someone will find a way to cheat the computer mind. Considering some of the decisions in baseball today, trying to figure out what some GMs and commissioners are thinking is almost impossible. Of course there's always Internet leagues for real GMs and real challenges. Finally, thanks for all your hard work on this series. I've been hooked on this since OOTP2, and I know I have never received as much value from a game as this one. Considering how a lot of PC sports games are going - it's good to have a strong community of utility-makers and roster folks as well.

07-07-2002, 02:21 PM	#7
Argicee Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 26	Adding toggleable full pitch mode would take this game to a whole new level.

07-07-2002, 02:36 PM	#9
Bagpipes5 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: TX Posts: 519	My hopes are that the revamped minor league system will include a number of things. Among those would be a 40-man roster, Rule V draft, a waiver system, and the further distinguishment between major and minor league contracts.

07-07-2002, 03:56 PM	#14
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	Good to hear!! The main weakness of v4 that I have seen is development of minor leaguers. Pitchers in particular.

07-07-2002, 05:18 PM	#16
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	I second elfdog's reccomendations for those of us who play each game. I also love most of the other ideas thrown in here, especially hiring/firing of manager's with their own personalities. Keeping track of their records when you hire them would be cool too. Be able to see where they have managed, what their record was, stuff like that. And every few years maybe the top five minor league managers (development skill wise, say - both ratings with Very Good or better) come into the pool for major league jobs. And AI minor league management tweaks are necessary. They don't do a good job clearing the way for their star prospects in the minors. One aggravating side note about the AI's trading skills - when they put a player on the block but then declare they refuse to trade him, even for a few star players. Can you say argh? I knew you could. But aside from all that, heh, this is the best computer game of any type I have played in a long time. Probably the best since Europa Universalis or Unreal Tournament, and that is saying something.

07-07-2002, 05:19 PM	#17
Zoso Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 41	I would like more control of the financial part of the game. That means I can turn off or on any part of it. I would like to be able to lock all parts of the finance settings so the computer can't change them. I would like to be able to be set the amount of money in the game by era. I would like to be able to lock the market size so it does not change. This is a big one for me if you can't give other controls of the finance game. I would like better docs for the financial part of the game.

07-07-2002, 08:42 PM	#19
Fred Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 67	This is my wish list for v5-8 (I know some of the things I want would be to hard to do in a year or 2). Okay I know you can't trade draft picks in the MLB but it would be a great feature to this game. Another great feature would be the ability to pursue players from 3rd world countries and Japan and other places and try to get them to enter the US as a free agent. Also the ability to get a scouting crew and make a rating for how much they are trusted and respespected by the players and thier families by their origin, their intelligence and whether or not they speek the native language. To do that you basicilly need a resumey for the scouts. You also could have an option where you give money to the players village or town to make improvments. Another great option would be to have to hire a manager and the option to resign the coaches and manager befor their contract expires. You could also add incetnives to the players contracts. You also have to sign your draft picks. Another great feature would be minor league coaches, standings and finances. So you might have a crappy major league team but have an amazing minor league team leaving some of your players as trade bait and you could make some money. That would add a whole new dimension to the game. I know some my ideas would take years to develop and my never be able to be developed but I just want to put my thoughts out there. Markus thanks for all of the work you put into this game you are currently developing a game and tweaking another one. You are one of if not the hardest working person I have the pleasure of knowing.