Position Ratings/Season Flip

RchW · 03-19-2006, 05:23 PM

I learned something new today. Last season in my solo league I needed help at 2B so I played a SS/3B there for about 50 games. I was a little annoyed when he did not generate a rating at 2B. After finishing the season and flipping to the next, I was pleasantly surprised to see he had a good rating at 2B.

I generally change positions in the minors so this is the first time I've seen this. Anyone else see this?

mrbill · 03-19-2006, 07:02 PM

You tried teaching a SS (listed as SS or 3B? thats important) to play 2B in the majors?

And he didn't learn it in the regular season or postseason, but did have a rating after the season rolled over?

And when you say a good rating, what was the range/% generated?

Usually in the minors a SS->2B gives the same range and better %, from what I remember. If you can do it in the majors like that reliably, it'd be a big development.

RchW · 03-19-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbill

You tried teaching a SS (listed as SS or 3B? thats important) to play 2B in the majors?

And he didn't learn it in the regular season or postseason, but did have a rating after the season rolled over?

And when you say a good rating, what was the range/% generated?

Usually in the minors a SS->2B gives the same range and better %, from what I remember. If you can do it in the majors like that reliably, it'd be a big development.

Yes. He had good def capabilities at both SS and 3B. See below.

Yes. He came into the next season with a 68 range at 2B. His range at SS and 3B was 71.

Here is the background. I had good power at 3B. I had a 20 HR 100rbi guy at SS. This guy was a classic lead off hitter (speed, high contact and eye). My 2B was having an off year, so I put him in at 2B and monitored the fielding stats. He made 4 errors in 246 TC for a fielding % of 0.984. Since I had a good team, there was no downside. I was frustrated in the playoffs 'cause I didn't want to play him with a range of zero.

I agree with you, this is really interesting. Is there a threshold number of games that you play someone at that generates a defensive rating?

sfgiants88 · 03-19-2006, 10:39 PM

Sounds cool, that never happened to me.

I think the "threshold" is different for every player.

mrbill · 03-20-2006, 01:28 AM

I'd like to run a test on this, so let me just make sure I'm doing it mostly right. Here's what I'm going to do:

- Play someone who is rated at only SS a varied number of games through the end of the season at 2B in the majors
- Leave them in the lineup at 2B when I roll over the season
- Record any times people learn 2B on the roll over and how many games they had played (and their stats) at 2B before the roll over

For variance, I'll probably play some people rated at 3B (and no other positions) at 2B and see what happens.

If I find any pattern that a roll-over learning of 2B is better than a mid-season learning of 2B, that's probably a bug.

RchW · 03-20-2006, 09:16 AM

If I understand you correctly, you expect some of these guys to learn and generate a defensive rating during the season. However if more of them do it after roll over that would suggest a bug?

disposableheros · 03-20-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

If I understand you correctly, you expect some of these guys to learn and generate a defensive rating during the season. However if more of them do it after roll over that would suggest a bug?

it isnt really, at least, in my mind. you know, the offseason being 4 months worth of time and all.

mrbill · 03-21-2006, 03:38 PM

No, I think the bug would be in how well they learn the position.

I've never had a ML player learn any position as well as he would have learned it in the minors, but your situation sounds like it was a ML player learning 2B as though he was learning it in AAA.

That's all I'd want to test

RchW · 03-21-2006, 05:04 PM

Oh, OK so you would have expected a defensive rating in the 30's on that basis?

mrbill · 03-21-2006, 05:16 PM

I think so, but, I'll have to find some time to set it up, trying teaching a SS learning 2B a few different ways, and see what happens.

disposableheros · 03-21-2006, 05:24 PM

is it a bug? meh, who cares? it doesnt really effect anything in a negative way.

i say you save yourself the time and trouble and test something else.

mrbill · 03-21-2006, 09:22 PM

Sure it effects things.

I was under the impression that in no way could you teach someone a new position in the majors or in ST as well as you could teach them a position in the minors.

If that is not true, it'd be exceptionally great to know (I have lots of ML players I'd like to teach positions) and it'd broaden my understanding of the design of the game (maybe I call it a bug, but as Microsoft would say, undocumented feature).

Maybe it'd even be considered a bug if it wasn't meant to be, and it'd get fixed in the next version of the game.

All that is OOTP is not gold, but saying it isn't doesn't imply that it's crap either, please take your negativity elsewhere.

bjkach · 03-22-2006, 06:44 AM

I would think a change from 3B/SS to 2B wouldn't be that drastic a switch because second base is probably an easier position to learn. Thus the player would get a halfway decent fielding rating. I have played my backup SS at 2B several times when my regular was tired and he seemed to handle it without any problems. The same thing with moving a fielder from one outfield position to another.

I believe doing it from 2B to SS/3B would be a tougher transition because of the obvious range factors and throwing distances, thus creating lower fielder ratings. I don't know if the game considers such things, but it's food for thought.

If you really want to see a test, try doing a C to let's say LF (see Todd Hundley) and see what happens there. I'm sure that change wouldn't go as smoothly.

mrbill · 03-22-2006, 12:30 PM

Well, that's a pretty known quantity. The question I'm answering isn't whether you can teach positions at all, but what the results are of teach a new position a few different ways:
- in the majors
- the roll-over period while in the majors
- the roll-over period while in the minors (if its even possible)
- time in the minors
- in ST (while in the majors)
- in ST (while in the minors)

In the IF, SS->2B->3B->1B and CF->LF->RF for the OF. If you go in the right direction, you get similar or better fielding ratings in both range and %, if you go up the difficulty ladder, it isn't very good. But, I only get the best results by teaching those positions while a player is in the minors playing out of position. Any other method I assumed was not as optimal.

03-19-2006, 05:23 PM	#1
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Position Ratings/Season Flip I learned something new today. Last season in my solo league I needed help at 2B so I played a SS/3B there for about 50 games. I was a little annoyed when he did not generate a rating at 2B. After finishing the season and flipping to the next, I was pleasantly surprised to see he had a good rating at 2B. I generally change positions in the minors so this is the first time I've seen this. Anyone else see this? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

03-19-2006, 07:02 PM	#2
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	You tried teaching a SS (listed as SS or 3B? thats important) to play 2B in the majors? And he didn't learn it in the regular season or postseason, but did have a rating after the season rolled over? And when you say a good rating, what was the range/% generated? Usually in the minors a SS->2B gives the same range and better %, from what I remember. If you can do it in the majors like that reliably, it'd be a big development. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

03-20-2006, 01:28 AM	#5
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	I'd like to run a test on this, so let me just make sure I'm doing it mostly right. Here's what I'm going to do: - Play someone who is rated at only SS a varied number of games through the end of the season at 2B in the majors - Leave them in the lineup at 2B when I roll over the season - Record any times people learn 2B on the roll over and how many games they had played (and their stats) at 2B before the roll over For variance, I'll probably play some people rated at 3B (and no other positions) at 2B and see what happens. If I find any pattern that a roll-over learning of 2B is better than a mid-season learning of 2B, that's probably a bug. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

03-20-2006, 09:16 AM	#6
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	If I understand you correctly, you expect some of these guys to learn and generate a defensive rating during the season. However if more of them do it after roll over that would suggest a bug? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

03-21-2006, 03:38 PM	#8
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	No, I think the bug would be in how well they learn the position. I've never had a ML player learn any position as well as he would have learned it in the minors, but your situation sounds like it was a ML player learning 2B as though he was learning it in AAA. That's all I'd want to test __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

03-19-2006, 10:39 PM	#4
sfgiants88 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 885	Sounds cool, that never happened to me. I think the "threshold" is different for every player.

03-21-2006, 05:04 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Oh, OK so you would have expected a defensive rating in the 30's on that basis? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

03-21-2006, 05:16 PM	#10
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	I think so, but, I'll have to find some time to set it up, trying teaching a SS learning 2B a few different ways, and see what happens. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

03-21-2006, 05:24 PM	#11
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	is it a bug? meh, who cares? it doesnt really effect anything in a negative way. i say you save yourself the time and trouble and test something else.

03-21-2006, 09:22 PM	#12
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	Sure it effects things. I was under the impression that in no way could you teach someone a new position in the majors or in ST as well as you could teach them a position in the minors. If that is not true, it'd be exceptionally great to know (I have lots of ML players I'd like to teach positions) and it'd broaden my understanding of the design of the game (maybe I call it a bug, but as Microsoft would say, undocumented feature). Maybe it'd even be considered a bug if it wasn't meant to be, and it'd get fixed in the next version of the game. All that is OOTP is not gold, but saying it isn't doesn't imply that it's crap either, please take your negativity elsewhere. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app Last edited by mrbill; 03-21-2006 at 09:25 PM.

03-22-2006, 06:44 AM	#13
bjkach Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 85	I would think a change from 3B/SS to 2B wouldn't be that drastic a switch because second base is probably an easier position to learn. Thus the player would get a halfway decent fielding rating. I have played my backup SS at 2B several times when my regular was tired and he seemed to handle it without any problems. The same thing with moving a fielder from one outfield position to another. I believe doing it from 2B to SS/3B would be a tougher transition because of the obvious range factors and throwing distances, thus creating lower fielder ratings. I don't know if the game considers such things, but it's food for thought. If you really want to see a test, try doing a C to let's say LF (see Todd Hundley) and see what happens there. I'm sure that change wouldn't go as smoothly.

03-22-2006, 12:30 PM	#14
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	Well, that's a pretty known quantity. The question I'm answering isn't whether you can teach positions at all, but what the results are of teach a new position a few different ways: - in the majors - the roll-over period while in the majors - the roll-over period while in the minors (if its even possible) - time in the minors - in ST (while in the majors) - in ST (while in the minors) In the IF, SS->2B->3B->1B and CF->LF->RF for the OF. If you go in the right direction, you get similar or better fielding ratings in both range and %, if you go up the difficulty ladder, it isn't very good. But, I only get the best results by teaching those positions while a player is in the minors playing out of position. Any other method I assumed was not as optimal. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app