From a Fighter/Players viewpoint

Mike Rodgers · 03-17-2006, 02:03 PM

Ht./Wt. difference in the same weight division should impact each fighters ratings drastically. A 6'7" and 250 lb Heavyweight would have a higher Control Factor, higher punches landed, huge power advantage and slower ratings than a Heavyweight that is 5'10" and 185 lbs.

As much as I would love for Rocky Marciano to remain undefeated he would have been murdered by a Heavyweight of the skill and size difference of a Lennox Lewis due to these factors.

mh2365 · 03-17-2006, 02:15 PM

Yeah that is one thing we have been asking for but it may be hard to duplicate in a game without giving an unfair advantage to crappy fighters. While Marciano may have lost to Lewis, he'd still probably take Michael Grant.

Claybor · 03-17-2006, 02:42 PM

I agree in game terms that size should matter, but I wouldnt have counted Marciano out against anybody no matter their size, and certainly not Lewis, who was good, but not that good, regardless of his size.

Mike Rodgers · 03-17-2006, 03:08 PM

"A Good big man will be a Great little man almost every time". I am not sure who said that, it is not my mine but it is very true.

This factor of the Ht./Wt. advantage would be huge for the Heavyweights but would also play a factor in the other divisions.

A big Ht. advantage in any other weight almost always guarantees a higher control factor, punches landed and sometimes power. You get more power from punching down then you do upwards guys. Hearns and Arguello come to mind right off the bat.

If a fighter sucks then he won't or shouldn't beat the smaller guy anyway despites their disadvantages, the smaller great guy should prevail. Grant's chin does suck, but it is also highly probable that he could keep a 5'10" 185 lb. Marciano at the end of a jab and away from him for 12 rounds. Not likely, but very probable. Now Lewis is in another category all together. He would not only have kept Marciano away, he would have obliterated him.
His skill and size would have been way too much for Marciano to overcome.

A suggestion or temporary fix might be to take all of your heavyweights that are maybe 205 lbs or lighter and move them to Cruiserweight. That way when they fought at Heavyweight the disadvantages are already accessed. It wouldn't be completely accurate, but more so then it is today.

Claybor · 03-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Actually, in my current universe I did just that in most cases. The # of fighters at CW was low, but I wanted to use them, so I moved HW's that averaged fighting at under 200(I may have used 195, not sure) to CW. the only exceptions were a a couple of major HW champs. (Marciano was one, I think perhaps 1 or 2 others)

meade95 · 03-17-2006, 08:04 PM

While I agree the Lennox's size was his biggest asset by far.....and he used it well.......A prime Marciano's pressure could have caused Lennox problems....without a doubt.

Furthermore Lennox's was "chinny" to a degree and could be taken out with one shot...

Additonally Lennox's biggest wins ...are really Vs two very much post-prime fighters.....that being Holyfield and Tyson.....(who were both several years and ring wars past there prime).

Lennox had a later aged prime then most do on average.....largely because he didn't have many ring wars early in his career.....and he grew into his size well as he got older...

So without a doubt Lennox's size would have been a big issue and obstacle for Marcinano......but I don't see Lennox murdering him in the ring...not at all.

Mike Rodgers · 03-17-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meade95

While I agree the Lennox's size was his biggest asset by far.....and he used it well.......A prime Marciano's pressure could have caused Lennox problems....without a doubt.

Furthermore Lennox's was "chinny" to a degree and could be taken out with one shot...

Additonally Lennox's biggest wins ...are really Vs two very much post-prime fighters.....that being Holyfield and Tyson.....(who were both several years and ring wars past there prime).

Lennox had a later aged prime then most do on average.....largely because he didn't have many ring wars early in his career.....and he grew into his size well as he got older...

So without a doubt Lennox's size would have been a big issue and obstacle for Marcinano......but I don't see Lennox murdering him in the ring...not at all.

Tyson paid millions of dollars to avoid defending against Lewis while he was in his prime. Bowe gave up a world title to avoid him.

A prime Lewis vs. a prime Marciano

Lewis TKO.5 Mariciano after cutting up and knocking him down several times the corner or referee saves him from further punishment.

Ali TKO. 12 Marciano after pummeling him for the majority of the fight.

Marciano was a Cruiserweight that hit like a Heavyweight and had the heart of a Lion, but the size of a Tabby. He was just in a good era where the men were small. Also, Marciano's biggest wins came against men well past their prime too.

Brooks TVB · 03-17-2006, 09:54 PM

I disagree totally that Lewis was "Chinny". Yes he was knocked out twice, but those two knockouts were the only knockdowns of his entire career. He was hit dang hard by Klitschko and kept on coming and in that fight he was very out of shape.

I don't know if Lewis could knock Marciano out but if he had a 20 foot ring and was on his game he could definately pull out a decision.

I definately think Marciano could beat Ali but thats a very biased decision because I just don't like Ali.

wildhawke11 · 03-17-2006, 10:52 PM

Below is a posting i did some while back on another site when a lot of guys were criticising Lennex Lewis.

On the way up it was other fighters who in fact did not want to meet Lewis, that's why he had to take on the best of the up and coming fighters. The truth is it was Riddock Bowe who was trying to avoid a fight with Lewis although they did meet in the amateurs and as someone here already stated Lewis stopped Bowe in the 2nd round. Even Don King who a great many sell there soul to, tried to get Lewis but the guy at least had the guts to tell him to go to hell or words to that affect.

Many call Lewis a boring fighter, and i agree on that one. But lets not forget the fight game is in fact not a game its first and foremost a business and a very hard one to be in. You get a totally different picture if your the fighter instead of being just the observer. A fighters job is to win fights first and foremost, Each fighter has different tools in his make up. To win a fight, and this is i might remind you is your prime objective. You maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. Lewis has done this very affectedly over most of his career you have to agree. In all honesty ask yourself is it better to have the acclaim of Ali and be the shadow of the man you once were. Or be criticised as a fighter and yet walk away from boxing with your health in tact and a future to look forward to.

People say Lewis has a glass chin, i agree its not in the same league as Liston, Foreman Ali etc etc. But its not quite as bad as people make out. Its no worse then Joe Louis had, and Jack Johnson did not have the greatest of chins hence the style he used in his fights. Now if Lewis has such a bad chin, how come he has been down only 2 times in 14 years of pro boxing, and that includes i think about 18 championship fights. Yes, we know he was out in those fights but its still a pretty good record all said and done. Wonder how Joe Louis himself who was put down by some pretty average fighters would react if hit by some of the big guys that Lewis faced.

Marciano down twice but in Rocks favour they were flash KDs
Louis - double figures and lets not forget the fighters over that last decade or so were in most cases bigger and probably hit harder then the majority of Louis's opposition.
Ali 4 as a pro 2 or 3 times as an amateur
Holmes 4 i think
Tyson is it 4 or 5
Holyfield i think 5 or 6
Forman - 3 or 4 times by Ali, Young and Lyle
Liston, Frazier and quite a few more i could name.

Now why was Lewis the guy they say has a glass chin not knocked down more. Because he is not quite the mug some seem to think he is, he made most of his opponents fight not as they would want to. At 38 years of age and being inactive and far from the prime Lewis, he still managed to take Vitali best punches.

To sum up Lewis is far from the best HW but he brings to the table to compensate for a less then great chin enough weapons in his make up. (tremendous strength and power, good jab, fair speed and above all like Gene Tunney very intelligent in boxing terms) Even at his prime he might not have beat the best of the best, but nevertheless he would have been a very tough match up for a lot of them.

In all fairness to Lewis he has to be in the top 20 I place him myself just out of the top 10. Now just cast your mind back in history to the multitude of young men who did battle as pro fighter's in the heavyweight division. Even being ranked in the Top 50 or so is something to be proud of. I think a fighter who has earned himself the right to be in that Top 50 has the right to a little respect when it comes to the fight game.

At least Marciano, Tunney and Lewis all have something in common. There the only 3 fighters in History in the HW division to have at least beat once ever fighter that stepped in the ring with them. Lewis might not even make the top 10 on a lot of peoples list but don't underrate him, at his peak he would have been a good match up to say the least against many of the All time greats. Bigger is not always better, but as history proves in nearly all cases the good big man usually beats the good little man. Just look at the little men throughout history who have tried to take on men in a higher division. (and i dont mean like today when you can jump up a few pounds and win a Title)

I will agree that on a P4P he would have been in trouble with most of them. As i said on another thread, he had bad balance, was not comfortable with the smaller men at times, and did not have the greatest chin, but the truth is it was no worse then the Great Joe Louis had, but what he did bring into the ring was a fair jab, strength, great punch power, and like Tunney used his abilities to his own advantage and did not most times play into the other guys hands. That's why some of his fights just like Larry Holmes at times could be pretty boring. But again just like Holmes he achieved his objectives and won most of his fights, and believe it or not, that's the name of the game *winning*

I never have really liked Lewis as a fighter, and that's the honest truth, but i refuse to let my dislike of him cloud my judgement of him overall. Well, for what its worth My Boxing Friends that's how i read it.

Cap · 03-17-2006, 11:50 PM

Marciano would've beaten Michael Grant because Grant didn't have the tools, mental or physical, to stop him. Lewis would've beaten Marciano, not just because he was bigger, but because he had the boxing brain to use his size to his advantage.

Cap

mh2365 · 03-17-2006, 11:57 PM

Mainly I was making the point that it would be hard to program a size variable into the game because size doesn't matter all the time.

Brooks TVB · 03-18-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

Mainly I was making the point that it would be hard to program a size variable into the game because size doesn't matter all the time.

Very true. I would say only five percent of all fighters ever really knew how to use thier size advantage. It would be nice to have it as an option like a boost to their skills so you could put it in or not.

gdf82 · 03-18-2006, 12:56 AM

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

IceTea · 03-18-2006, 01:06 AM

* If Marciano, Dempsey, Jack Johnson and the like were around today, they would be heavier if not for different eating habits and training methods, people are just larger today. Dempsey would scale in at 215 and bring nearly the same speed, power, and movement into the fights and in concert with his attitude/aggressiveness, he would still be a top 5 all-time heavyweight. In my opinion, #1.

* Michael Grant had all of the tools but didn't have the desire deep down inside of him because he was raised upper middle class and couldn't access that desire/rage when he needed it. (Chin) isn't all chin....there is mentality/legs/neck/desire/heart/lifestyle (spartain) that are all factored into the quality of (chin). Plus, once you get KO'd, it is easier to go down and out from that point on. If you have to get up off the deck to get paird to eat, represent your people (race/ethnic origin/home town), or out of pride...you will. Many fighters during the 30's and early 40's were tough because they had to be. This isn't true in the USA today. People can easily access some social program to put food on the table or to buy a color TV.

* I also agree that Lennox Lewis is a fringe top 10 guy. He was 250 pounds and could move gracefully while tossing out his first rate jab. He looked great in knocking out a tough heavyweight named Razor Ruddock, a guy that a post prime Tyson had issues with. Similar to rating US Presidents, with the exception of the current one, fighters cannot really be rated or appreciated until 10-15 years after they assume civilain status. I'm sure in 2015, some kid with a pocket protector and a runny nose will look back on the career of Lennox Lewis and say that he belongs in the top 10 and very few will agrue.

* Would Rocky Marciano defeat Riddick Bowe or Larry Holmes if he weighed 205-210 as Joe Frazier did? Most likely yes. I believe he would have defeated them at the 190 he weighed for most of his bouts. I believe that a good big guy beats a good little guy but how any good big guys are there? Most of today's heavyweights are lumbering around the ring with their mouth hanging wide open about mid-way through round 4. Look at Wlad, his brother, and nearly every heavyweight that isn't named Chris Byrd and this is true. I doubt if any but Byrd, Brock, Toney, and Brewster could go 15 rounds with constant actoin.

If you want to see a fast paced bout, watch Frazier v Quarry......either would fight at such a pace that most heavyweights today would just drop after 6 or 7 rounds.

* Does anyone else think that Wlad is going down each time he takes a punch?

* I used to box and know the above to be true and approve this message.

MJ

Brooks TVB · 03-18-2006, 01:35 AM

Good points. Klitschko has lost some of his fire since getting laid out by Sanders. He isn't as aggressive as he was early on in his career and in my opinion he would have lost to Williamson if the fight went on. I don't think he beats Byrd this time, but hey I don't like him. Again I am biased, sorry.

meade95 · 03-18-2006, 01:49 AM

Get out of here with the notion that Tyson was truly trying to "avoid" fighting Lennox earlier in his career ......the fact is boxing is a business first and foremost...and anyone who is WILLING to be intellectually honest on this subject understands this.

There was no money in fighting Lennox when Tyson paid the WBC (I think it was) to tell Lennox to step aside...(and the fact is Lennox took the money!!...he didn't demand his shot at Tyson)....

Lennox used his size and defensive style very well.....but the notion that Lennox would have clearly beat a fighter of Marcinano's class is just not assured. The fact is Lennox could be taken out with one punch.

Additionally Lennox's biggest wins are Vs two post-prime guys. Plain and simple. Holyfield was fighting world class competition by his 14th pro fight....Lennox was fighting bums up until Razor Ruddock basically.......Lennox found his prime later in life and during a time when there wasn't much depth in terms of competition.

Marciano's pressure would have caused Lennox problems in my mind

mh2365 · 03-18-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

Good points. Klitschko has lost some of his fire since getting laid out by Sanders. He isn't as aggressive as he was early on in his career and in my opinion he would have lost to Williamson if the fight went on. I don't think he beats Byrd this time, but hey I don't like him. Again I am biased, sorry.

It won't be the same as last time ... Klitschko in 5. Byrd is fighting this fight only for the money. It was his only shot at a big payday, he booted King to get it and even agreed to go to Germany where he should know he'll have to dominate the fight way more than Calzaghe did to Lacy to win the decision.

The way I see it he wanted a big payday before quitting and if that's why he is there, he'll get destroyed. When Wlad knocked the crap out of him 5 years ago Byrd was a stick and move fighter, now he doesn't really move any more and is getting knocked around by guys who would be lucky to beat a bar bouncer. Wlad lost his confidence but seemed to find it in his last fight and he's fighting a guy with about as much power as a Swifter Sweeper. But hey I hate Byrd and love Wlad so I too might be biased

.

wildhawke11 · 03-18-2006, 10:43 AM

The HW division is the hardest to visualise the smaller guys from years ago completing with the likes of Liston, Frazier, Foreman and the even bigger Lennex Lewis etc etc. I agree that both Marciano and Jack Dempsey might even win against some of the lesser big guys But its a totally different ball game asking Rocky and Jack to step into the ring each and every fight giving so much weight away. Thats why we have varying weight divisions in the first place. It a different kettle of fish again matching the MW fighters from the 30s 40s 50s like LaMotta, Cerdan, Robinson etc etc against the likes of Bernard Hopkins or company where we can at least make an informed guess at the results.

The problem with taking 185 lb fighters like Dempsey etc, and matching them up with fighters that came much later is this. Lets just take Dempsey, i agree Dempsey would probably come in at over 210 lbs or so. But they just would not be the same fighters. What made Dempsey so vicious and hard just like many others fighters from days gone by was the times itself, You had to be hard to even survive in Jacks days. This new later born Jack would not be the Dempsey of the old times.

If your going to give Dempsey the advantages of his hard tough upbringing along with having a weight advantage because he was born later. Then its only fair to give the later fighters in our minds the added asset of them being brought up and having the same hard background and upbringing of the likes of Dempsey and such.

Give Mike Tyson and Lewis the same hard background and having to fight in rundown dives and saloons for just a meal ticket that the likes of Dempsey and company had to do and you would have a totally different much harder Tyson or Lewis facing you. The best of your time is all you can be, the rest is just like our game fantasy boxing. The best bet in the game is to move the likes of Dempsey and Marciano to CW or lower their CF and maybe even their KD and punch power ratings somewhat. To at least reflect the major weight difference between them.

Lets face it the real truth is many times we cant even get todays fights right so what hell in chance have we got of forecasting fighters from years ago fighting against others from another era. Calculated guesses is the best any of us can do. In the lower weight divisions i think we can make a pretty good guess. With the likes of Duran, Robinson, Hagler and so on. But the HWs is so much harder to guess at. Who knows even Frank Bruno who in no way was in Dempsey or Marciano's class but could hit hard might even have hit Rocky or Jack right on the button in round one and game over as they say. i also agree they could have done the same to him.

Cap · 03-18-2006, 10:48 AM

Our friend Mike Rodgers here is 6' 1" and 195 lbs., about the same as Dempsey. There is no logical reason to believe that those old timers would be any bigger today than they were before.

Lennox would've beaten Marciano the same way he beat Tyson, and he would've beaten any version of Tyson. Styles make fights, and Lennox was the guy to whip Tyson 9 times out of 10.

As for moving the small heavies to the cruiserweight class, it seems a logical thing to do, but being champ of the cruiserweights just doesn't carry the prestige of being Heavyweight champion of the world!

Cap

meade95 · 03-18-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap

Our friend Mike Rodgers here is 6' 1" and 195 lbs., about the same as Dempsey. There is no logical reason to believe that those old timers would be any bigger today than they were before.

Lennox would've beaten Marciano the same way he beat Tyson, and he would've beaten any version of Tyson. Styles make fights, and Lennox was the guy to whip Tyson 9 times out of 10.

As for moving the small heavies to the cruiserweight class, it seems a logical thing to do, but being champ of the cruiserweights just doesn't carry the prestige of being Heavyweight champion of the world!

Cap

Cap I'm going to completely disagree with you on this one (but I understand the sentiment of where you are coming from) - Lennox's style was the type to give a fighter like Holyfield problems each and every time out.....but not a prime Tyson.

A prime Tyson would have TKO'd Lennox - Lennox's back up / defensive style was made to order for Tyson.

Tyson struggled with guys who stood up to him......Lennox wouldn't have done this to a prime Tyson.....he would have tried to box too cautiously and a prime Tyson would have fed off of this......Tyson loved to go after people who fought him backing up....he was quick enough to cut off the ring and then he would cut them down.

The Tyson ...Lennox's faced was a shell of his formerself (we all know this) and that Tyson had no ability to 1. Cut off the ring...and 2. Keep up any sustained "pace".

Lennox knew both of these facts going into the fight.

IMO a prime Tyson Vs a prime Lennox......Tyson wins 8 out of 10. (and I'm not a huge Tyson fan).

03-17-2006, 03:08 PM	#4
Mike Rodgers Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 33	"A Good big man will be a Great little man almost every time". I am not sure who said that, it is not my mine but it is very true. This factor of the Ht./Wt. advantage would be huge for the Heavyweights but would also play a factor in the other divisions. A big Ht. advantage in any other weight almost always guarantees a higher control factor, punches landed and sometimes power. You get more power from punching down then you do upwards guys. Hearns and Arguello come to mind right off the bat. If a fighter sucks then he won't or shouldn't beat the smaller guy anyway despites their disadvantages, the smaller great guy should prevail. Grant's chin does suck, but it is also highly probable that he could keep a 5'10" 185 lb. Marciano at the end of a jab and away from him for 12 rounds. Not likely, but very probable. Now Lewis is in another category all together. He would not only have kept Marciano away, he would have obliterated him. His skill and size would have been way too much for Marciano to overcome. A suggestion or temporary fix might be to take all of your heavyweights that are maybe 205 lbs or lighter and move them to Cruiserweight. That way when they fought at Heavyweight the disadvantages are already accessed. It wouldn't be completely accurate, but more so then it is today. Last edited by Mike Rodgers; 03-17-2006 at 03:14 PM.

03-17-2006, 10:52 PM	#9
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	In defense of Lennex Lewis Below is a posting i did some while back on another site when a lot of guys were criticising Lennex Lewis. On the way up it was other fighters who in fact did not want to meet Lewis, that's why he had to take on the best of the up and coming fighters. The truth is it was Riddock Bowe who was trying to avoid a fight with Lewis although they did meet in the amateurs and as someone here already stated Lewis stopped Bowe in the 2nd round. Even Don King who a great many sell there soul to, tried to get Lewis but the guy at least had the guts to tell him to go to hell or words to that affect. Many call Lewis a boring fighter, and i agree on that one. But lets not forget the fight game is in fact not a game its first and foremost a business and a very hard one to be in. You get a totally different picture if your the fighter instead of being just the observer. A fighters job is to win fights first and foremost, Each fighter has different tools in his make up. To win a fight, and this is i might remind you is your prime objective. You maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. Lewis has done this very affectedly over most of his career you have to agree. In all honesty ask yourself is it better to have the acclaim of Ali and be the shadow of the man you once were. Or be criticised as a fighter and yet walk away from boxing with your health in tact and a future to look forward to. People say Lewis has a glass chin, i agree its not in the same league as Liston, Foreman Ali etc etc. But its not quite as bad as people make out. Its no worse then Joe Louis had, and Jack Johnson did not have the greatest of chins hence the style he used in his fights. Now if Lewis has such a bad chin, how come he has been down only 2 times in 14 years of pro boxing, and that includes i think about 18 championship fights. Yes, we know he was out in those fights but its still a pretty good record all said and done. Wonder how Joe Louis himself who was put down by some pretty average fighters would react if hit by some of the big guys that Lewis faced. Marciano down twice but in Rocks favour they were flash KDs Louis - double figures and lets not forget the fighters over that last decade or so were in most cases bigger and probably hit harder then the majority of Louis's opposition. Ali 4 as a pro 2 or 3 times as an amateur Holmes 4 i think Tyson is it 4 or 5 Holyfield i think 5 or 6 Forman - 3 or 4 times by Ali, Young and Lyle Liston, Frazier and quite a few more i could name. Now why was Lewis the guy they say has a glass chin not knocked down more. Because he is not quite the mug some seem to think he is, he made most of his opponents fight not as they would want to. At 38 years of age and being inactive and far from the prime Lewis, he still managed to take Vitali best punches. To sum up Lewis is far from the best HW but he brings to the table to compensate for a less then great chin enough weapons in his make up. (tremendous strength and power, good jab, fair speed and above all like Gene Tunney very intelligent in boxing terms) Even at his prime he might not have beat the best of the best, but nevertheless he would have been a very tough match up for a lot of them. In all fairness to Lewis he has to be in the top 20 I place him myself just out of the top 10. Now just cast your mind back in history to the multitude of young men who did battle as pro fighter's in the heavyweight division. Even being ranked in the Top 50 or so is something to be proud of. I think a fighter who has earned himself the right to be in that Top 50 has the right to a little respect when it comes to the fight game. At least Marciano, Tunney and Lewis all have something in common. There the only 3 fighters in History in the HW division to have at least beat once ever fighter that stepped in the ring with them. Lewis might not even make the top 10 on a lot of peoples list but don't underrate him, at his peak he would have been a good match up to say the least against many of the All time greats. Bigger is not always better, but as history proves in nearly all cases the good big man usually beats the good little man. Just look at the little men throughout history who have tried to take on men in a higher division. (and i dont mean like today when you can jump up a few pounds and win a Title) I will agree that on a P4P he would have been in trouble with most of them. As i said on another thread, he had bad balance, was not comfortable with the smaller men at times, and did not have the greatest chin, but the truth is it was no worse then the Great Joe Louis had, but what he did bring into the ring was a fair jab, strength, great punch power, and like Tunney used his abilities to his own advantage and did not most times play into the other guys hands. That's why some of his fights just like Larry Holmes at times could be pretty boring. But again just like Holmes he achieved his objectives and won most of his fights, and believe it or not, that's the name of the game winning I never have really liked Lewis as a fighter, and that's the honest truth, but i refuse to let my dislike of him cloud my judgement of him overall. Well, for what its worth My Boxing Friends that's how i read it.

03-17-2006, 11:50 PM	#10
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,979	Marciano would've beaten Michael Grant because Grant didn't have the tools, mental or physical, to stop him. Lewis would've beaten Marciano, not just because he was bigger, but because he had the boxing brain to use his size to his advantage. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

03-18-2006, 01:06 AM	#14
IceTea Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sherrill, NY Posts: 9,836	* If Marciano, Dempsey, Jack Johnson and the like were around today, they would be heavier if not for different eating habits and training methods, people are just larger today. Dempsey would scale in at 215 and bring nearly the same speed, power, and movement into the fights and in concert with his attitude/aggressiveness, he would still be a top 5 all-time heavyweight. In my opinion, #1. * Michael Grant had all of the tools but didn't have the desire deep down inside of him because he was raised upper middle class and couldn't access that desire/rage when he needed it. (Chin) isn't all chin....there is mentality/legs/neck/desire/heart/lifestyle (spartain) that are all factored into the quality of (chin). Plus, once you get KO'd, it is easier to go down and out from that point on. If you have to get up off the deck to get paird to eat, represent your people (race/ethnic origin/home town), or out of pride...you will. Many fighters during the 30's and early 40's were tough because they had to be. This isn't true in the USA today. People can easily access some social program to put food on the table or to buy a color TV. * I also agree that Lennox Lewis is a fringe top 10 guy. He was 250 pounds and could move gracefully while tossing out his first rate jab. He looked great in knocking out a tough heavyweight named Razor Ruddock, a guy that a post prime Tyson had issues with. Similar to rating US Presidents, with the exception of the current one, fighters cannot really be rated or appreciated until 10-15 years after they assume civilain status. I'm sure in 2015, some kid with a pocket protector and a runny nose will look back on the career of Lennox Lewis and say that he belongs in the top 10 and very few will agrue. * Would Rocky Marciano defeat Riddick Bowe or Larry Holmes if he weighed 205-210 as Joe Frazier did? Most likely yes. I believe he would have defeated them at the 190 he weighed for most of his bouts. I believe that a good big guy beats a good little guy but how any good big guys are there? Most of today's heavyweights are lumbering around the ring with their mouth hanging wide open about mid-way through round 4. Look at Wlad, his brother, and nearly every heavyweight that isn't named Chris Byrd and this is true. I doubt if any but Byrd, Brock, Toney, and Brewster could go 15 rounds with constant actoin. If you want to see a fast paced bout, watch Frazier v Quarry......either would fight at such a pace that most heavyweights today would just drop after 6 or 7 rounds. * Does anyone else think that Wlad is going down each time he takes a punch? * I used to box and know the above to be true and approve this message. MJ __________________ Don't worry, be happy! Women's Boxing Cyber Boxing Zone Philadelphia Boxing Boxrec Ross Boxing https://boxingjones.com/ Last edited by IceTea; 03-18-2006 at 01:11 AM.

03-18-2006, 01:49 AM	#16
meade95 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,095	Get out of here with the notion that Tyson was truly trying to "avoid" fighting Lennox earlier in his career ......the fact is boxing is a business first and foremost...and anyone who is WILLING to be intellectually honest on this subject understands this. There was no money in fighting Lennox when Tyson paid the WBC (I think it was) to tell Lennox to step aside...(and the fact is Lennox took the money!!...he didn't demand his shot at Tyson).... Lennox used his size and defensive style very well.....but the notion that Lennox would have clearly beat a fighter of Marcinano's class is just not assured. The fact is Lennox could be taken out with one punch. Additionally Lennox's biggest wins are Vs two post-prime guys. Plain and simple. Holyfield was fighting world class competition by his 14th pro fight....Lennox was fighting bums up until Razor Ruddock basically.......Lennox found his prime later in life and during a time when there wasn't much depth in terms of competition. Marciano's pressure would have caused Lennox problems in my mind Last edited by meade95; 03-18-2006 at 01:55 AM.

03-17-2006, 02:03 PM	#1
Mike Rodgers Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 33	From a Fighter/Players viewpoint Ht./Wt. difference in the same weight division should impact each fighters ratings drastically. A 6'7" and 250 lb Heavyweight would have a higher Control Factor, higher punches landed, huge power advantage and slower ratings than a Heavyweight that is 5'10" and 185 lbs. As much as I would love for Rocky Marciano to remain undefeated he would have been murdered by a Heavyweight of the skill and size difference of a Lennox Lewis due to these factors.

03-17-2006, 02:15 PM	#2
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Yeah that is one thing we have been asking for but it may be hard to duplicate in a game without giving an unfair advantage to crappy fighters. While Marciano may have lost to Lewis, he'd still probably take Michael Grant.

03-17-2006, 02:42 PM	#3
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I agree in game terms that size should matter, but I wouldnt have counted Marciano out against anybody no matter their size, and certainly not Lewis, who was good, but not that good, regardless of his size.

03-17-2006, 04:34 PM	#5
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Actually, in my current universe I did just that in most cases. The # of fighters at CW was low, but I wanted to use them, so I moved HW's that averaged fighting at under 200(I may have used 195, not sure) to CW. the only exceptions were a a couple of major HW champs. (Marciano was one, I think perhaps 1 or 2 others)

03-17-2006, 08:04 PM	#6
meade95 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,095	While I agree the Lennox's size was his biggest asset by far.....and he used it well.......A prime Marciano's pressure could have caused Lennox problems....without a doubt. Furthermore Lennox's was "chinny" to a degree and could be taken out with one shot... Additonally Lennox's biggest wins ...are really Vs two very much post-prime fighters.....that being Holyfield and Tyson.....(who were both several years and ring wars past there prime). Lennox had a later aged prime then most do on average.....largely because he didn't have many ring wars early in his career.....and he grew into his size well as he got older... So without a doubt Lennox's size would have been a big issue and obstacle for Marcinano......but I don't see Lennox murdering him in the ring...not at all.

03-17-2006, 09:54 PM	#8
Brooks TVB All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Loudon, TN. Posts: 1,439	I disagree totally that Lewis was "Chinny". Yes he was knocked out twice, but those two knockouts were the only knockdowns of his entire career. He was hit dang hard by Klitschko and kept on coming and in that fight he was very out of shape. I don't know if Lewis could knock Marciano out but if he had a 20 foot ring and was on his game he could definately pull out a decision. I definately think Marciano could beat Ali but thats a very biased decision because I just don't like Ali.

03-17-2006, 11:57 PM	#11
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Mainly I was making the point that it would be hard to program a size variable into the game because size doesn't matter all the time.

03-18-2006, 12:56 AM	#13
gdf82 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: allen, tx Posts: 34	It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

03-18-2006, 01:35 AM	#15
Brooks TVB All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Loudon, TN. Posts: 1,439	Good points. Klitschko has lost some of his fire since getting laid out by Sanders. He isn't as aggressive as he was early on in his career and in my opinion he would have lost to Williamson if the fight went on. I don't think he beats Byrd this time, but hey I don't like him. Again I am biased, sorry.

03-18-2006, 10:43 AM	#18
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	The HW division is the hardest to visualise the smaller guys from years ago completing with the likes of Liston, Frazier, Foreman and the even bigger Lennex Lewis etc etc. I agree that both Marciano and Jack Dempsey might even win against some of the lesser big guys But its a totally different ball game asking Rocky and Jack to step into the ring each and every fight giving so much weight away. Thats why we have varying weight divisions in the first place. It a different kettle of fish again matching the MW fighters from the 30s 40s 50s like LaMotta, Cerdan, Robinson etc etc against the likes of Bernard Hopkins or company where we can at least make an informed guess at the results. The problem with taking 185 lb fighters like Dempsey etc, and matching them up with fighters that came much later is this. Lets just take Dempsey, i agree Dempsey would probably come in at over 210 lbs or so. But they just would not be the same fighters. What made Dempsey so vicious and hard just like many others fighters from days gone by was the times itself, You had to be hard to even survive in Jacks days. This new later born Jack would not be the Dempsey of the old times. If your going to give Dempsey the advantages of his hard tough upbringing along with having a weight advantage because he was born later. Then its only fair to give the later fighters in our minds the added asset of them being brought up and having the same hard background and upbringing of the likes of Dempsey and such. Give Mike Tyson and Lewis the same hard background and having to fight in rundown dives and saloons for just a meal ticket that the likes of Dempsey and company had to do and you would have a totally different much harder Tyson or Lewis facing you. The best of your time is all you can be, the rest is just like our game fantasy boxing. The best bet in the game is to move the likes of Dempsey and Marciano to CW or lower their CF and maybe even their KD and punch power ratings somewhat. To at least reflect the major weight difference between them. Lets face it the real truth is many times we cant even get todays fights right so what hell in chance have we got of forecasting fighters from years ago fighting against others from another era. Calculated guesses is the best any of us can do. In the lower weight divisions i think we can make a pretty good guess. With the likes of Duran, Robinson, Hagler and so on. But the HWs is so much harder to guess at. Who knows even Frank Bruno who in no way was in Dempsey or Marciano's class but could hit hard might even have hit Rocky or Jack right on the button in round one and game over as they say. i also agree they could have done the same to him.

03-18-2006, 10:48 AM	#19
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,979	Our friend Mike Rodgers here is 6' 1" and 195 lbs., about the same as Dempsey. There is no logical reason to believe that those old timers would be any bigger today than they were before. Lennox would've beaten Marciano the same way he beat Tyson, and he would've beaten any version of Tyson. Styles make fights, and Lennox was the guy to whip Tyson 9 times out of 10. As for moving the small heavies to the cruiserweight class, it seems a logical thing to do, but being champ of the cruiserweights just doesn't carry the prestige of being Heavyweight champion of the world! Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.." Last edited by Cap; 03-18-2006 at 11:58 AM.