Why Have I never seen

Bucco_Fan30 · 07-05-2002, 09:53 PM

a rain out!!!!! Always a delay, never a rain out. . . I'm in the year 2005 and play out all the games. What gives?

And yes, my team is that bad that at times I want a rain out!

Andy · 07-05-2002, 10:10 PM

There currently are no rainouts in the game.

Bucco_Fan30 · 07-05-2002, 10:13 PM

Thank you, that was pretty straightforward.

Any chance it will change?

LilRedMachine · 07-06-2002, 02:32 AM

As I recall, rain-outs were left out due to scheduler programming issues. I'm no programmer, but from looking at MLB's schedules, programming the schedule generator has to be a nightmare.

DiversionX · 07-06-2002, 04:49 AM

Not really as much of a nightmare as you might think. I figure these are about the only rules for a series:

1) every team must play 162 games between the opening and closing of the season.
2) series can be 2, 3 or 4 games.
3) no team can have more than 1 day off in a row

The fact that MLB doesn't have more rules means some teams have stupid roadtrips. I know it happens quite often an east coast team will fly out west for just a few games and then come right back to face another east coast team. Once you get the few rules set, writing the algorithm is just a matter of recursiveness and crunching 162 games for every team.

Please, let me know if other rules would be appropriate.

SSG Troyer · 07-06-2002, 08:20 AM

...the point being, though, to change an existing schedule mid-season to accomodate rain-outs may be a bit of a programming stretch, especially since the OOTP Team Schedule screen can only display one game per day. Yes, OOTP can handle double-headers, but not elegantly...

OTOH, I don't see why we couldn't have rain-shortened games...

DiversionX · 07-06-2002, 09:08 AM

In a virtual world one doesn't have to worry about flight times and jet lag.

CMH · 07-06-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DiversionX
In a virtual world one doesn't have to worry about flight times and jet lag.

i dont think anyone was concerned about flight times or jet lag (even though i would love to see something like this programmed into the game to affect fatigue even more)

but anywayz, i agree that scheduling a double header would be a nightmare.

however, i always thought that maybe you could just program the game to search for the next time the two teams play against each other and either
(1)schedule a game on an off day before/after their series
(2)if no off day before/after series then schedule one for their NEXT game
(a)if game starts at 7:05, schedule new game at 1 or 4
(B) if game starts at 1, schedule new game at 4 or 7
(c) if game starts at 4, schedule new game at 1 or 7
(d) if game starts at 10, schedule new game at 4 or 7
(3) if no series left against team, schedule a game on any off day both teams have.
(4) if there are more than one makeup games that would require rescheduling after the season AND they couldnot fit in between the end of the season and playoffs, then
(a) using magic number, if team can tie for first or win division with a win, force the game into the schedule
(b) if there is no chance to make playoffs, drop the game altogether.

*NOTE: i have no idea how MLB would figure out how to run two necessary games in one day before playoffs. if they would push the playoffs one day, then the game could do that. if they would force a doubleheader in one stadium, then the game could do that.

i figure since the game doesnt worry about jet lag then this wouldnt be a problem if you are in the middle of a west coast trip and then play a team at florida.

i always thought it would be easy to program. not easy but simple to put down and then it will take time to test it. but what do i know, i struggled through computer science...

Le Grande Orange · 07-06-2002, 01:55 PM

Actually, the easiest way in which to handle the rescheduling postponed games is to get OOTP to do doubleheaders correctly. This is how MLB handles it - rained out games are almost always made up as part of a doubleheader the next time the two teams meet.

The screens don't have to display two games - just put a (1) behind the listed game. The (1) tells you that it is the first game of a doubleheader. Clicking on the (1) will change it to (2) and thus display the second game of the doubleheader. This idea could be used in all the displays, and essentially you just toggle between the details for the two games of the doubleheader.

Another way of handling the reschedulement problem is to allow teams to occasionally play less than the full 162 games. This often happens in real life.

In fact, that's one of my small nitpicks I have with pretty much all the baseball sims I've seen - they always have all the teams playing their full complement of games every year. In reality, this is not the case, as every so often teams will play 1-3 games less than the full amount due to rainouts not getting replayed before the season ends (and this figure is even higher in the earlier years of baseball).

In those earlier years, seasons weren't measured by games played but instead by the start and end dates, which were fixed. The MLB rules used to state that any games which could not be made up before the end date of the season were to be written off. This resulted in some of the more interesting pennant race situations, such as in 1908 where Detroit won by just a half-game, or the 1915 Federal League where Chicago won the pennant even though they were 0 games ahead (they won the pennant on the basis of a few points better winning percentage).

The rules governing make up games changed over the years. The first situation stated that any tied or postponed games would be make on up off days or as part of doubleheaders in the appropriate park.

Later, this was changed to allow the postponed games to be played in the other team's park, if necessary. For example, if a Detroit at Cleveland game had been rained out, they would first try to reschedule it for the next time Detroit was visiting Cleveland. If however this was Detroit's last visit to Cleveland for the season when the postponnement happened, they would then add the game between the teams the next time Cleveland was at Detroit.

As a result, teams would sometimes play quite a few games less or more at home than originally scheduled. The idea here is to at try to get the correct number of matchups between the two teams, even if the matchups could not all be played in the correct park.

So, the reschedulement logic the game could use could follow these rules:

First, it tries to reschedule the postponed game as part of a doubleheader the next time the two teams play (or as a single game on an off day, should that be practical for both teams). If the rain outs occur during the last visit of the team to that park, the game is then made up as an extra game in the other team's park. If this also isn't possible, then the game is not made up at all.

In any case, I would love to see OOTP handle doubleheaders and rain outs (and tie games too for that matter). It would really add some more great details to an already great game.

Scott Vibert · 07-07-2002, 02:04 AM

What happens if the two teams never meet again?

In additional to the scheduling the game can have some other pecularities when you play a manually schedule double header. It's not just the scheduling engine and display that can have an impact. (IIRC pitcher fatigue can be messed up (not terribly)).

Some adjustments to the game AI would be needed to allow for DH's to work properly (typically not starting the same Catcher both games, proper reliever usage, and a few more subs than normal).

Playing less than 162 games is only allowed if the game does not impact the pennant race, if it does it is supposed to be made up.

There is an additional rule which is a limitation of the number of games players can have without an off day. (I forget the precise limit) Often times towards the end of the season to accomodate DHs caused by rainouts both teams will have to vote to waive the rules and approve the rescheduling.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yankee Pride
i always thought it would be easy to program. not easy but simple to put down and then it will take time to test it. but what do i know, i struggled through computer science...

If it was easy to program then, a computer game would have done this long ago. The fact that this many years with computer baseball games have gone by and to my knowledge there still hasn't been a game with a game with rainouts (but several with rain delays) is a pretty good indication of the difficulty of the problem. I'm sure its not something that was forgotten by all the game developers over the years, rather its proven to be something that the time it takes to solve and implement was not deemed worth the potential benefits, or the assorted developers weren't able to solve it (I'd assume it was option a).

Le Grande Orange · 07-07-2002, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottVib
What happens if the two teams never meet again?

Well, as I mentioned, in the era before jet travel, if the teams could not make up the game before the end of the season, it wasn't made up at all, regardless of whether or not the teams were in the thick of a pennant race (the League Constitutions made no provision for the replaying of postponed or tied regular season games after the scheduled end of the regular season).

This lead to some of the more interesting finishes, such as the 1915 FL. They were also several other pennant races which were affected by late season rain outs, since the games could not be made up in time. I personally would love to be able to duplicate those sorts of finishes in OOTP.

Obviously, in this age of jet travel, it is much easier to make up games late in the season.

So, it would depend on which era one would want to duplicate as to whether games should always be made up before the end of the season or not. The ideal situation would allow the player to select whether or not postponed games are always made up.

However, I can live without rain outs. I really would like to see doubleheaders make it into OOTP 5 though. While in the last 15 years or so scheduled doubleheaders have vanished from MLB, in the many years before that doubleheaders were an important part of baseball. Teams would often have doubleheaders on holidays, like July 4th, for example.

Not only that, but having to deal with the occasional doubleheader adds to the challenge of managing the players on one's team. Working doubleheaders also allow the importing of actual historical MLB schedules into OOTP, without having to do the painful process of removing them all first (which is a big thing for me at the moment).

So, my wish list would have properly working doubleheaders for OOTP 5, and leave rain outs (and maybe even tied games ) for OOTP 6.

07-05-2002, 09:53 PM	#1
Bucco_Fan30 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 16	Why Have I never seen a rain out!!!!! Always a delay, never a rain out. . . I'm in the year 2005 and play out all the games. What gives? And yes, my team is that bad that at times I want a rain out!

07-06-2002, 02:32 AM	#4
LilRedMachine Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Chillicothe, OH Posts: 83	As I recall, rain-outs were left out due to scheduler programming issues. I'm no programmer, but from looking at MLB's schedules, programming the schedule generator has to be a nightmare. __________________ FEBL - Chillicothe Copperbacks

07-06-2002, 04:49 AM	#5
DiversionX Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chapel Hill, NC Posts: 148	Not really as much of a nightmare as you might think. I figure these are about the only rules for a series: 1) every team must play 162 games between the opening and closing of the season. 2) series can be 2, 3 or 4 games. 3) no team can have more than 1 day off in a row The fact that MLB doesn't have more rules means some teams have stupid roadtrips. I know it happens quite often an east coast team will fly out west for just a few games and then come right back to face another east coast team. Once you get the few rules set, writing the algorithm is just a matter of recursiveness and crunching 162 games for every team. Please, let me know if other rules would be appropriate. __________________ For the owners, BY the owners - the BIG Baseball League http://www.big-baseball.com ******************************

07-06-2002, 08:20 AM	#6
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	...the point being, though, to change an existing schedule mid-season to accomodate rain-outs may be a bit of a programming stretch, especially since the OOTP Team Schedule screen can only display one game per day. Yes, OOTP can handle double-headers, but not elegantly... OTOH, I don't see why we couldn't have rain-shortened games... __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

07-06-2002, 09:08 AM	#7
DiversionX Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chapel Hill, NC Posts: 148	In a virtual world one doesn't have to worry about flight times and jet lag. __________________ For the owners, BY the owners - the BIG Baseball League http://www.big-baseball.com ******************************

07-05-2002, 10:10 PM	#2
Andy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 2,270	There currently are no rainouts in the game.

07-05-2002, 10:13 PM	#3
Bucco_Fan30 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 16	Thank you, that was pretty straightforward. Any chance it will change?

07-06-2002, 01:55 PM	#9
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	Actually, the easiest way in which to handle the rescheduling postponed games is to get OOTP to do doubleheaders correctly. This is how MLB handles it - rained out games are almost always made up as part of a doubleheader the next time the two teams meet. The screens don't have to display two games - just put a (1) behind the listed game. The (1) tells you that it is the first game of a doubleheader. Clicking on the (1) will change it to (2) and thus display the second game of the doubleheader. This idea could be used in all the displays, and essentially you just toggle between the details for the two games of the doubleheader. Another way of handling the reschedulement problem is to allow teams to occasionally play less than the full 162 games. This often happens in real life. In fact, that's one of my small nitpicks I have with pretty much all the baseball sims I've seen - they always have all the teams playing their full complement of games every year. In reality, this is not the case, as every so often teams will play 1-3 games less than the full amount due to rainouts not getting replayed before the season ends (and this figure is even higher in the earlier years of baseball). In those earlier years, seasons weren't measured by games played but instead by the start and end dates, which were fixed. The MLB rules used to state that any games which could not be made up before the end date of the season were to be written off. This resulted in some of the more interesting pennant race situations, such as in 1908 where Detroit won by just a half-game, or the 1915 Federal League where Chicago won the pennant even though they were 0 games ahead (they won the pennant on the basis of a few points better winning percentage). The rules governing make up games changed over the years. The first situation stated that any tied or postponed games would be make on up off days or as part of doubleheaders in the appropriate park. Later, this was changed to allow the postponed games to be played in the other team's park, if necessary. For example, if a Detroit at Cleveland game had been rained out, they would first try to reschedule it for the next time Detroit was visiting Cleveland. If however this was Detroit's last visit to Cleveland for the season when the postponnement happened, they would then add the game between the teams the next time Cleveland was at Detroit. As a result, teams would sometimes play quite a few games less or more at home than originally scheduled. The idea here is to at try to get the correct number of matchups between the two teams, even if the matchups could not all be played in the correct park. So, the reschedulement logic the game could use could follow these rules: First, it tries to reschedule the postponed game as part of a doubleheader the next time the two teams play (or as a single game on an off day, should that be practical for both teams). If the rain outs occur during the last visit of the team to that park, the game is then made up as an extra game in the other team's park. If this also isn't possible, then the game is not made up at all. In any case, I would love to see OOTP handle doubleheaders and rain outs (and tie games too for that matter). It would really add some more great details to an already great game.