Negro League sim league

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 08:52 AM

I'm polling interest in an OOTP league to simulate the Negro Leagues in one of several possible fashions.

For those who don't know me (as I don't frequently post on the boards), I run two OOTP leagues (GGB and URB, but I am employed by MLB and am currently working on a documentary about the Negro Leagues for MLB.com. That project got me thinking about a Negro League sim league, and I've put together enough info to actually make one happen.

What I'd like is to see what type of league the community would think best.

I've got the following choices:

1) a straight Negro League sim, starting in 1920, modeling the actual Negro Leagues from 1920 to 1950 or so when the quality players all finally got a chance to play in "organized" baseball.

2) a combo league (I know some of these exist) starting in either 1901 or 1920, with the Negro Leaguers added to the player pool of the Major League players.

3) another possibility, and one that so far as I know, has not been tried, is a combo league starting in the late 19th century. The "color line" as it came to be known, was drawn following a famous incident involving future Hall-of-Famer Cap Anson in 1887. Cap Anson's "walk" - ie, his refusal to play in a game involving Fleet Walker and George Stovey (two African-American members of the International League's Jersey City team), started such an uproar that all teams in the National Association (which includes the minor leagues) put together their infamous "gentlemen's agreement" to exclude players of color. This league would probably start in 1891 with a premise that the Player's League of 1890 succeeded in driving the National League out of business.

Please let me know your thoughts and whether you'd be interested in being a part of whichever league ends up coming out of this. As we all know, a good league is only as strong as the commitment of the people involved with it (commish and GMs).

Thanks for reading,
Joe

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 08:55 AM

In the interest of simplicity, I've laid out the choices below:

a) 1920-start, Negro League structure, segregated
b) 1920-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
c) 1901-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
d) 1891-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly

scprideandms · 01-31-2006, 09:34 AM

My preference on 1-100 scale (with locked ratings)

25 a) 1920-start, Negro League structure, segregated
35 b) 1920-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
75 c) 1901-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
99 d) 1891-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers
50 e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly (if trades allowed between leagues...65)

Database(s) u would use?

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 09:43 AM

For the Major League players, I have a custom database I built for the GGB and URB leagues which park-normalizes all players; for the Negro Leaguers, they'd be crafted individually using accounts of their play and some statistics (Negro League stats are not available for some players and are also not 100% accurate as some were accrued against semi-pro competition).

Cooleyvol · 01-31-2006, 11:16 AM

While running the UBL, I found it is possible to run a hybrid league.

I've always thought a fully Negro League would be hard due to the minimal number of players with information needed to create them in OOTP.

If you have such information, I'd be MORE than interested in a league starting at any point using just Negro players.

I'd also be interested in (e) above as well.

(c) would hold interest for me as well if the leagues were separated.

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

I've always thought a fully Negro League would be hard due to the minimal number of players with information needed to create them in OOTP.

I've got info on the 381 players who participated in the Negro Leagues in 1920 (which should be more than enough to get off the ground).

Unfortunately, there aren't enough players to do the same in 1901 (only 52 players), so that would have to be an integrated league.

Personally I lean towards e) with a regular MLB-style league running alongside, but no integration.

jf7623 · 01-31-2006, 01:40 PM

e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly

I really don't know what to say about the Negro players back then, cause I don't have all that history, but I would be interested in something like this, cause it gets away from the so many modern leagues already out there, so different is good in this case

metsgeek · 01-31-2006, 03:56 PM

e) As long as I get Oscar Charleston

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsgeek

e) As long as I get Oscar Charleston

Yeah, he'd make a nice franchise cornerstone.

Claybor · 01-31-2006, 04:38 PM

This sounds like a very interesting idea.

A or E - (excludind C due to lack of players)

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 07:19 PM

Seems like A or E are turning out to be the most popular. Either would be unique, so far as I can tell (I don't claim to know the particulars of the thousands of leagues out there).

JoeRockHead · 01-31-2006, 07:22 PM

Choices A,B and C sound good to me. I'm currantly in a league that started in 1901 with the two leagues mixing. It is called MTB baseball. This is a very interesting alternate history league. My team(Detriot Tigers) happened to draft Oscar Charlston. This league is MLB teams only. It was simmed as if there never was a color line or a seperate Negro Leagues.

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 07:42 PM

One thing about option (e): what we'd probably need to do is have GMs run both a Major League team and a Negro League team. Since the leagues would be completely seperated (possibly not even sharing a league file), this would not be a conflict of interest. Negro League players couldn't jump to the MLB teams and vice-versa. We'd probably set up some barnstorming teams in the postseason for some exhibition games (just like they did in real life) to spice things up a bit.

Cooleyvol · 01-31-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

One thing about option (e): what we'd probably need to do is have GMs run both a Major League team and a Negro League team. Since the leagues would be completely seperated (possibly not even sharing a league file), this would not be a conflict of interest. Negro League players couldn't jump to the MLB teams and vice-versa. We'd probably set up some barnstorming teams in the postseason for some exhibition games (just like they did in real life) to spice things up a bit.

You could run it that way until the new OOTP comes out and then put both leagues into one file in the new game, still not having to play each other in the offseason.

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

You could run it that way until the new OOTP comes out and then put both leagues into one file in the new game, still not having to play each other in the offseason.

Excellent point - that's likely to be exactly what we'd do.

GeoWar · 01-31-2006, 08:10 PM

I don't have a preference for options -- if you get it setup I would like the KC team -- Monarchs..

links--

http://www.blackbaseball.com/

http://www.logoserver.com/Negro.html

legendsport · 01-31-2006, 08:27 PM

Since it looks like this will happen, most likely as option (e) - anyone have good ideas for a league name (keeping in mind that both MLB and the Negro Leagues will be part of it)?

Cooleyvol · 01-31-2006, 08:32 PM

Duality
Dynamic Duo(s)
Equality Baseball Association
Total Equation
Complete Baseball

I'm basically at a loss.

The Professor · 01-31-2006, 08:41 PM

A Game for All America (as in the Ernie Harwell piece...) ?

Cooleyvol · 01-31-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Professor

A Game for All America (as in the Ernie Harwell piece...) ?

America's Game
American Pastime

01-31-2006, 08:52 AM	#1
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	Negro League sim league I'm polling interest in an OOTP league to simulate the Negro Leagues in one of several possible fashions. For those who don't know me (as I don't frequently post on the boards), I run two OOTP leagues (GGB and URB, but I am employed by MLB and am currently working on a documentary about the Negro Leagues for MLB.com. That project got me thinking about a Negro League sim league, and I've put together enough info to actually make one happen. What I'd like is to see what type of league the community would think best. I've got the following choices: 1) a straight Negro League sim, starting in 1920, modeling the actual Negro Leagues from 1920 to 1950 or so when the quality players all finally got a chance to play in "organized" baseball. 2) a combo league (I know some of these exist) starting in either 1901 or 1920, with the Negro Leaguers added to the player pool of the Major League players. 3) another possibility, and one that so far as I know, has not been tried, is a combo league starting in the late 19th century. The "color line" as it came to be known, was drawn following a famous incident involving future Hall-of-Famer Cap Anson in 1887. Cap Anson's "walk" - ie, his refusal to play in a game involving Fleet Walker and George Stovey (two African-American members of the International League's Jersey City team), started such an uproar that all teams in the National Association (which includes the minor leagues) put together their infamous "gentlemen's agreement" to exclude players of color. This league would probably start in 1891 with a premise that the Player's League of 1890 succeeded in driving the National League out of business. Please let me know your thoughts and whether you'd be interested in being a part of whichever league ends up coming out of this. As we all know, a good league is only as strong as the commitment of the people involved with it (commish and GMs). Thanks for reading, Joe __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 08:55 AM	#2
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	In the interest of simplicity, I've laid out the choices below: a) 1920-start, Negro League structure, segregated b) 1920-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers c) 1901-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers d) 1891-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 09:34 AM	#3
scprideandms All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: N KY, 25 miles from Cincy Posts: 1,314	My preference on 1-100 scale (with locked ratings) 25 a) 1920-start, Negro League structure, segregated 35 b) 1920-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers 75 c) 1901-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers 99 d) 1891-start, combo league, Negro Leaguers + Major Leaguers 50 e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly (if trades allowed between leagues...65) Database(s) u would use? __________________ Change your playground + change your playfriends + change your playtoys + change your playtime = Change your life. If you keep on doing what you've always done you'll keep on gitting what you've always gotten.

01-31-2006, 09:43 AM	#4
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	For the Major League players, I have a custom database I built for the GGB and URB leagues which park-normalizes all players; for the Negro Leaguers, they'd be crafted individually using accounts of their play and some statistics (Negro League stats are not available for some players and are also not 100% accurate as some were accrued against semi-pro competition). __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 11:16 AM	#5
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	While running the UBL, I found it is possible to run a hybrid league. I've always thought a fully Negro League would be hard due to the minimal number of players with information needed to create them in OOTP. If you have such information, I'd be MORE than interested in a league starting at any point using just Negro players. I'd also be interested in (e) above as well. (c) would hold interest for me as well if the leagues were separated. Last edited by Cooleyvol; 01-31-2006 at 11:20 AM.

01-31-2006, 01:40 PM	#7
jf7623 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 713 Infractions: 0/4 (4)	e) 1920-start, Negro League and Major Leagues, seperate leagues, run jointly I really don't know what to say about the Negro players back then, cause I don't have all that history, but I would be interested in something like this, cause it gets away from the so many modern leagues already out there, so different is good in this case

01-31-2006, 03:56 PM	#8
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,450	e) As long as I get Oscar Charleston __________________ Commissioner - PBRL - Just finished 2009 109 seasons and still running strong!!!

01-31-2006, 04:38 PM	#10
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,360 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	This sounds like a very interesting idea. A or E - (excludind C due to lack of players)

01-31-2006, 07:19 PM	#11
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	Seems like A or E are turning out to be the most popular. Either would be unique, so far as I can tell (I don't claim to know the particulars of the thousands of leagues out there). __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 07:22 PM	#12
JoeRockHead Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NorthCarolina Posts: 333	Choices A,B and C sound good to me. I'm currantly in a league that started in 1901 with the two leagues mixing. It is called MTB baseball. This is a very interesting alternate history league. My team(Detriot Tigers) happened to draft Oscar Charlston. This league is MLB teams only. It was simmed as if there never was a color line or a seperate Negro Leagues. __________________ Regards:John Nellis Last edited by JoeRockHead; 02-01-2006 at 07:20 PM.

01-31-2006, 07:42 PM	#13
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	One thing about option (e): what we'd probably need to do is have GMs run both a Major League team and a Negro League team. Since the leagues would be completely seperated (possibly not even sharing a league file), this would not be a conflict of interest. Negro League players couldn't jump to the MLB teams and vice-versa. We'd probably set up some barnstorming teams in the postseason for some exhibition games (just like they did in real life) to spice things up a bit. __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 08:10 PM	#16
GeoWar All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 850	I don't have a preference for options -- if you get it setup I would like the KC team -- Monarchs.. links-- http://www.blackbaseball.com/ http://www.logoserver.com/Negro.html __________________ Cal. State Fullerton -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2004 Texas Longhorns -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2005 Oregon State Beavers -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2006 and 2007 With unity comes VICTORY !

01-31-2006, 08:27 PM	#17
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	Since it looks like this will happen, most likely as option (e) - anyone have good ideas for a league name (keeping in mind that both MLB and the Negro Leagues will be part of it)? __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

01-31-2006, 08:32 PM	#18
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	Duality Dynamic Duo(s) Equality Baseball Association Total Equation Complete Baseball I'm basically at a loss.

01-31-2006, 08:41 PM	#19
The Professor Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: East of East Posts: 3,020	A Game for All America (as in the Ernie Harwell piece...) ? __________________ History isn't really about the past - settling old scores. It's about defining the present and who we are."