Texas A&M vs Seattle Seahawks

bigphesta · 01-29-2006, 02:42 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playof...ory?id=2309668

Quote:

FORT WORTH -- The Seattle Seahawks are facing the Pittsburgh Steelers in the Super Bowl, but they have an off-the-field battle brewing with Texas A&M.

School officials are upset with the Seahawks' use of the "12th Man" theme to recognize their fan support. A&M has legal claims to the "12th Man" moniker, a school tradition that dates to the 1920s.

Texas A&M contends the 12th man lives at Kyle Field, not in Seattle.

The Seahawks have celebrated their fans as a "12th Man" since the 1980s, when they used to turn the now-demolished Kingdome into one of the NFL's loudest venues.

The team retired the No. 12 in 1984. Now, a No. 12 flag waves atop the city's signature Space Needle and the team has raised a "12th Man" banner at their new stadium, Qwest Field.

A&M's "12th Man" tradition started in 1922, when a student, E. King Gill, was called from the stands to suit up for the injury-depleted Aggies as they faced top-ranked Centre College. Gill never got in the game, but the Aggies won 22-14.

The tradition has evolved into a campus-wide commitment to support the football team. Students stand for entire games at Kyle Field and at times, they join arms and sway in unison, causing the stadium to literally shake.

A&M has twice registered trademarks for "The 12th Man" label -- in 1990 and 1996 -- that include entertainment services, "namely organizing and conducting intercollegiate sporting events," and products, such as caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Athletics director Bill Byrne said this week he's received e-mails from A&M supporters complaining about the Seahawks' "brazen use of the 12th Man theme at their home playoff games."

Byrne said A&M has contacted the Seahawks about the issue. He said he wrote the Chicago Bears and Buffalo Bills in the past about halting their 12th man themes once the university made them aware of the trademark registrations.

Byrne said Seattle, though, "has been slow-rolling us."

Lance Lopes, the Seahawks' vice president of corporate partnerships/legal affairs, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram he would not comment on whether the team would meet A&M's request.

"I will say this," Lopes told the newspaper. "Our fans have been the folks that have run with the 12th man. It has not been the organization itself. We raise a flag with a 12 on it, it doesn't say 12th man or anything like that. We retired the jersey No. 12 many, many years ago and we've always sort of kept it under that context.

"But, in terms of this whole 12th man derivative, if you will, that's occurred in the mass media and the public here locally. It has not been generated by the organization, per se."

But Steve Moore, A&M's chief marketing officer, said the school has seen Seahawks-themed "12th Man" merchandise and has no way to know whether the franchise itself is producing it.

The team's pro shop is sold out of No. 12 replica game jerseys and No. 12 flags and a fan Web site -- SeaHawkers.org -- offers downloadable computer desktop wallpaper that reads: "At Home We are the 12th Man" and "On the Road We are the 12th Man."

"In the normal course of action, once someone becomes aware of it and they understand that you have a registered trademark, normally they cease," said Steve Moore, A&M's chief marketing officer. "In this case, they have chosen not to, but we are still hopeful that they will, quite frankly."

The university's last resort is to take the Seahawks to court, but Moore said A&M is not prepared to do that yet.

"What we hope is that the normal course of action will work, and that they'll choose to recognize our ownership of the trademark," he said.

I don't know much about trademark law (ok, nothing), but it seems that if Seattle was using the "12th man" theme prior to the filing of a trademark, the trade mark shouldn't have been granted. I may be wrong, but c'mon.

Astros02 · 01-29-2006, 03:00 AM

A&M should lobby for a 13th man the way they have been playing.

Jonzard · 01-29-2006, 04:44 AM

Sounds kind of dumb to me.... the 12th (or 6th in other sports) is a term people commonly use.

Can they patent "Give 110%?"

SanDiegoPadres19 · 01-29-2006, 04:55 AM

Seriously, doesn't Texas A&M have anything better to do than pick on the Seahawks days before they go to the Super Bowl. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

gmo · 01-29-2006, 06:17 AM

Being an Aggie, I must take up their side...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigphesta

I don't know much about trademark law (ok, nothing), but it seems that if Seattle was using the "12th man" theme prior to the filing of a trademark, the trade mark shouldn't have been granted. I may be wrong, but c'mon.

There is a difference between retiring the number 12 and calling the fans a "12th Man" and using the terminology "12th Man" as a trademarked part of their business. If I made a dice-activated tabletop baseball game I described as "Out of the Park", and now today turned it into an online flash game I was using to make money with "Out of the Park" plastered all over the graphics basically making it the name of the game, that would not be just fine with Markus & SI as they would have a legitimate case telling me to cut it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonzard

Sounds kind of dumb to me.... the 12th (or 6th in other sports) is a term people commonly use.

Can they patent "Give 110%?"

Again, if a business trademarked the slogan "Give 110%" then another business used it and benefitted financially from that usage, that would not be cool. Joe Blow just saying the fans were like a 12th or 6th man in a game or that he or somebody gave 110% in game is still fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoPadres19

Seriously, doesn't Texas A&M have anything better to do than pick on the Seahawks days before they go to the Super Bowl. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

From what exactly did you determine the university was "picking on" the Seahawks? That the school has "received e-mails" from its supports or that it "has contacted the Seahawks about the issue?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astros02

A&M should lobby for a 13th man the way they have been playing.

But worst of all is this. The problem with it is that it is spot-on.

TonyJ · 01-29-2006, 06:36 AM

Sounds like Phesta is a bit bitter of the loss of the Bears and their magical QB.

Aordolin · 01-29-2006, 10:10 AM

we have too many lawyers.

jgross68 · 01-29-2006, 12:25 PM

My wife is an Aggie. When she went down to College Station for a game a couple years ago with some of her friends, I asked her to pick me up a #12 jersey. She asked me whose number that was. She's not really a big sports fan.

phenom · 01-29-2006, 12:52 PM

My softball team once played in a national tournament in College Station. I didn't go. That turned out to be a pretty good idea, since it averaged about 112 degrees there that week.

theasfl · 01-29-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoPadres19

Seriously, doesn't Texas A&M have anything better to do than pick on the Seahawks days before they go to the Super Bowl. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

no...they dont win.

hook em

bigphesta · 01-29-2006, 02:47 PM

My point is they "started" using the theme in the 1920's, and didn't bother to trademark it until the 1990's. By then, the 12th man was a pretty common phrase in the football world. Almost EVERY team had a reference to it. Why wait that long to apply for the TM and why was it granted?

That'd be like the first team to come up with the term "hail mary" meaning DEEP PASS (not the catholic version) to try and TM it now - after most EVERY SINGLE team uses the phrase and the common fan knows exactly what's coming up when someone says "time to throw the Hail Mary" (although it makes for great joe montana football commercials)

Astros33Resurrected · 01-29-2006, 04:32 PM

sweet gome college station, where the skies are maroon, sweet home college station, lord im coming home to you.

UT has the longhorns and they've been known to win a game or two, but we kick that butt so much, their colors are burnt orange, black and blue.

J_CROCE · 01-29-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aordolin

we have too many lawyers.

No joke; you can't even talk sports without tripping over a few of them.

CTSoxFan · 01-30-2006, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigphesta

My point is they "started" using the theme in the 1920's, and didn't bother to trademark it until the 1990's. By then, the 12th man was a pretty common phrase in the football world. Almost EVERY team had a reference to it. Why wait that long to apply for the TM and why was it granted?

That'd be like the first team to come up with the term "hail mary" meaning DEEP PASS (not the catholic version) to try and TM it now - after most EVERY SINGLE team uses the phrase and the common fan knows exactly what's coming up when someone says "time to throw the Hail Mary" (although it makes for great joe montana football commercials)

Anyone can still say 12th Man as long as they don't profit off of it. The Seahawks can say that they thank the fans for being a 12th man, but they cant sell 12th Man t-shirts or anything. If Hail Mary was trademarked, then that team could see shirts saying Hail Mary and make money off of it, but no other team could, but the announcers and the players and such could still refer to it as the Hail Mary. Its just like how Pat Riley trademarked Three-Peat. No one can use the word Three-Peat on merchandise without paying Riley first. If the Seahawks really want the 12th Man, they'll have to pay A&M for it.

Skipaway · 01-30-2006, 01:10 AM

This is the kind of trade mark that really shouldn't be granted. Kind of like the problem of people taking up domain names. It varies from country to country of course.

TheRaven · 01-30-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

This is the kind of trade mark that really shouldn't be granted.

Agreed..there definately should be phrases that are trade marked for use in public domain. Any team should be able to sell and use the term 12th man to its fans. Same with 3 Peat and any other ridiculous common phrase that anyone has bothered to TM.

Gastric ReFlux · 01-30-2006, 12:19 PM

Hmm, so we wants to know if the Super Bowl were Texas A&M versus Seattle, who'd win?

I think it'd be close, but Seattle has been just really lucky this season, so the edge goes to the Aggies.

bigphesta · 01-30-2006, 03:10 PM

please, the Aggies coudln't beat my highschool team

Skipaway · 01-30-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux

I think it'd be close, but Seattle has been just really lucky this season, so the edge goes to the Aggies.

I consider it luck that the Seahawks didn't have to face the trade marked 12th man.

Gastric ReFlux · 01-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigphesta

please, the Aggies coudln't beat my highschool team

I guess the Seahawks couldn't either. Parity! It's destroying the NFL, especially the NFC.

01-29-2006, 04:44 AM	#3
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	Sounds kind of dumb to me.... the 12th (or 6th in other sports) is a term people commonly use. Can they patent "Give 110%?" __________________ For a scientist must indeed be freely imaginative and yet skeptical, creative and yet a critic. There is a sense in which he must be free, but another in which his thought must be very precisely regimented; there is poetry in science, but also a lot of bookkeeping. — Sir Peter B. Medawar FTB

01-29-2006, 04:55 AM	#4
SanDiegoPadres19 All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 937	Seriously, doesn't Texas A&M have anything better to do than pick on the Seahawks days before they go to the Super Bowl. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. __________________ Classic Jerry Colmanisms "Montreal leads Atlanta by three, 5-1." "They throw Winfield out at second, but he's safe." (As Matt Williams took a curtain call after hitting a home run) "Barry Bonds gets a standing ovation as he digs in." (Following the second out) ".. and the Padres win the National League Wes... oh, just got a little exicted." ************** Internet Sim Baseball League, Lo$ Angele$ Dodger$ ISBL Fictional Blog

01-29-2006, 06:36 AM	#6
TonyJ Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Gassin' Kurds Posts: 2,019	Sounds like Phesta is a bit bitter of the loss of the Bears and their magical QB. __________________ My Podcasts: Talk Democratic Dysfunction Name Two Bands with Andy and Andy

01-29-2006, 12:25 PM	#8
jgross68 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ....is everything! OTA: .882, Member #866 Posts: 690	My wife is an Aggie. When she went down to College Station for a game a couple years ago with some of her friends, I asked her to pick me up a #12 jersey. She asked me whose number that was. She's not really a big sports fan. __________________ Javier Gustavo Ruprecht Oss LXVIII Bizarro-Gastric ReFlux Emeritus Judo Purist and Supporter of Monkey Rodeo Leagues: OTBL \| ABC \| OCHO \| Off The Wall (Coming Soon!) Blogs: The Legacy of Tony Womack \| How We Got Enron! ...the musical (Now even less frequently updated!) Topical quote for any occasion: "Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth." ~Henrik Ibsen, "An Enemy of the People"

01-30-2006, 01:10 AM	#15
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	This is the kind of trade mark that really shouldn't be granted. Kind of like the problem of people taking up domain names. It varies from country to country of course. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

01-29-2006, 03:00 AM	#2
Astros02 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 506	A&M should lobby for a 13th man the way they have been playing.

01-29-2006, 10:10 AM	#7
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	we have too many lawyers.

01-29-2006, 12:52 PM	#9
phenom Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Near the Great Wall. On the GOOD side. Posts: 3,768	My softball team once played in a national tournament in College Station. I didn't go. That turned out to be a pretty good idea, since it averaged about 112 degrees there that week.

01-29-2006, 02:47 PM	#11
bigphesta Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 1,366	My point is they "started" using the theme in the 1920's, and didn't bother to trademark it until the 1990's. By then, the 12th man was a pretty common phrase in the football world. Almost EVERY team had a reference to it. Why wait that long to apply for the TM and why was it granted? That'd be like the first team to come up with the term "hail mary" meaning DEEP PASS (not the catholic version) to try and TM it now - after most EVERY SINGLE team uses the phrase and the common fan knows exactly what's coming up when someone says "time to throw the Hail Mary" (although it makes for great joe montana football commercials)

01-29-2006, 04:32 PM	#12
Astros33Resurrected Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lufkin, TX Posts: 2,213	sweet gome college station, where the skies are maroon, sweet home college station, lord im coming home to you. UT has the longhorns and they've been known to win a game or two, but we kick that butt so much, their colors are burnt orange, black and blue.

01-30-2006, 12:19 PM	#17
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Hmm, so we wants to know if the Super Bowl were Texas A&M versus Seattle, who'd win? I think it'd be close, but Seattle has been just really lucky this season, so the edge goes to the Aggies.

01-30-2006, 03:10 PM	#18
bigphesta Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 1,366	please, the Aggies coudln't beat my highschool team