Pitcher & Catcher Relation

Deftones2003 · 01-07-2006, 09:04 PM

You always here and see during the baseball season that certain pitchers like a certain catcher to be behind the plate when they start a game.
The thought came to me today while i was sitting around watchin the tube.
Would like to see a depth like this added as it would make the importance of a backup more valuable to a team

Thoughts?

OmahaBaseball · 01-07-2006, 09:08 PM

I think anything that can bring more depth to the game is for the better. I know in "Real Life" Wakefield always used Mirabelli (sp) as his catcher. Some pitchers/catchers just "work" together.

kingpin1976 · 01-07-2006, 10:21 PM

I think a handling pitchers or calling a game rating for catchers would be nice.

TotalEnd98 · 01-07-2006, 11:19 PM

This has been discussed ad nauseum. As no study (at least that I've seen) has ever shown that catchers have a measurable effect, it is unlikely any rating along these lines will appear in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHOWDERHEAD SLC

I know in "Real Life" Wakefield always used Mirabelli (sp) as his catcher. Some pitchers/catchers just "work" together.

That has very little to do with Wakefield and Mirabelli "working" on some level and quite a bit to do with the fact that Mirabelli can catch the knuckleball.

DiMaggio5CF · 01-08-2006, 03:23 AM

I did not have battery relations with that catcher.

Hotwheelz · 01-08-2006, 03:43 AM

I seem to recall that Varitek couldnt catch the knuckler to save his life. Didnt he have a number of passed balls in one game? Something like 7. Or in a few games. Something. That was the reason he didnt catch Wakefield, like TotalEnd said.

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotwheelz

I seem to recall that Varitek couldnt catch the knuckler to save his life. Didnt he have a number of passed balls in one game? Something like 7. Or in a few games. Something. That was the reason he didnt catch Wakefield, like TotalEnd said.

Yep... all that "they just have a great rapport!" bull**** is just conventional wisdom create-a-story bull**** by the media and announcers.

A lot of people justify Varitek's contract by the fact that he "calls a great game!" Bull****. Sox pitchers' ERA was higher when Varitek was catching than Mirbs last year.

rocknfire7 · 01-08-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Yep... all that "they just have a great rapport!" bull**** is just conventional wisdom create-a-story bull**** by the media and announcers.

I strongly disagree. As a former pitcher and from personal experience I KNOW some catchers work better with pitchers then others. If you are not on the same page with your batterymate you might be in for a long night.

I think it would be great to add this feature to the game.

mlyons · 01-08-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocknfire7

I strongly disagree. As a former pitcher and from personal experience I KNOW some catchers work better with pitchers then others. If you are not on the same page with your batterymate you might be in for a long night.

I think it would be great to add this feature to the game.

Except that there's no evidence of this on the big-league level.

RonCo · 01-09-2006, 08:57 AM

"Work better with" does not necessarily equal "perform better with." In real life work situations, I'm sure you can point to people who you immediately click with and who you get great joy doing good work with, but (barring a totally disfunctional person in the mix) I'm sure you do high quality work with other people, too.

kingpin1976 · 01-09-2006, 11:39 AM

What about some catchers ability to frame pitches better then others? There is a major part between pitcher and catcher that numbers dont have to show.

andymac · 01-09-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpin1976

What about some catchers ability to frame pitches better then others? There is a major part between pitcher and catcher that numbers dont have to show.

In my experiences as an umpire, framing has virtually zero effect on an umpire. When the ball hits the glove, the umpire should already know whether it is a ball or strike.

Sublimity · 01-09-2006, 11:58 AM

I'd say catcher's effects are pretty limited to the minor leagues, in a Crash Davis with the original Nukester kind of way. In the majors, it boils down to helping the pitcher remember the scouting report of the hitters and keeping him in rhythm with calls he likes. Not doing either of those well would probably not effect his pitching much, but could make him pretty disgruntled.

Eh, my thoughts anyway. At the ML level, the pitchers know what pitches they're comfortable with. If it was the catcher's exclusive job to call the game, they wouldn't let pitchers shake off signs.

kingpin1976 · 01-09-2006, 12:49 PM

I guess I come to the question that why do teams go out and sign veteran catchers who have nothing left who can barely crack .200 avg, then bying for a young cheaper catcher from their minors?

andymac · 01-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpin1976

I guess I come to the question that why do teams go out and sign veteran catchers who have nothing left who can barely crack .200 avg, then bying for a young cheaper catcher from their minors?

Because baseball teams aren't particularly smart. There are perceived benefits that baseball people think "veterans" provide. There is not any statistical evidence to back up that though process however.

Eugene Church · 01-09-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Because baseball teams aren't particularly smart. There are perceived benefits that baseball people think "veterans" provide. There is not any statistical evidence to back up that though process however.

You may be right.

But I pitched a few games in my life and found that catchers did make a difference in my success or failure to limited degree. Some presented a target better than others. This gave me better control. Some knew where to put the target. This helped me hit the right spots. Some knew the batters better than others. Some could call a game better than others. Some had a way with the umpires and could help me get a call every now and then. Some could distract batters with idle conversation, too. Yogi Berra was a master at this. The batters sometimes lost focus and did not concentrate like they should have.

So I think it would be a good thing to have in the game...with the option to turn it off, too.

andymac · 01-09-2006, 01:50 PM

I pitched in high school also, and the only thing I particularly cared about when it came to my catcher is whether or not I had confidence that he could block a ball I put in the dirt. All the other things you mentioned are simply "comfort things" that are more dependent on the pitcher than what the catcher is actually doing.

Luis_Rivera · 01-09-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpin1976

I guess I come to the question that why do teams go out and sign veteran catchers who have nothing left who can barely crack .200 avg, then bying for a young cheaper catcher from their minors?

Why do the Pirates pay Jeromy Burnitz $10MM to put a better corner outfielder on the trade block??

Why do the Reds sign Eric Milton who is an extreme fly ball pitcher... when they have a bandbox for a ballpark??

Why do the Cubs re-sign Neifi "sub-300 OBP" Perez to put at second base when they already have Todd Walker??

Because many of the guys running the show for MLB teams don't know **** about player/talent evaluation. Nor do they have a sense of what really matters in baseball. That's why.

rudel.dietrich · 01-09-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpin1976

I guess I come to the question that why do teams go out and sign veteran catchers who have nothing left who can barely crack .200 avg, then bying for a young cheaper catcher from their minors?

Usualy catchers who cannot hit are excellent defensive catchers.
Good defense at catcher has some of most impact of any posistion on the field.

CBL-Commish · 01-10-2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Usualy catchers who cannot hit are excellent defensive catchers.
Good defense at catcher has some of most impact of any posistion on the field.

Usually any player who can't hit is described as having mad defensive skills, intangibles, leadership... basically any quality that allows the front office to justify belatedly discovering they have no backup and signing a 36-year-old with a .625 career OPS to fill the role.

01-07-2006, 09:04 PM	#1
Deftones2003 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada Posts: 155	Pitcher & Catcher Relation You always here and see during the baseball season that certain pitchers like a certain catcher to be behind the plate when they start a game. The thought came to me today while i was sitting around watchin the tube. Would like to see a depth like this added as it would make the importance of a backup more valuable to a team Thoughts?

01-07-2006, 09:08 PM	#2
OmahaBaseball Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Home of the College World Series! Posts: 3,641	I think anything that can bring more depth to the game is for the better. I know in "Real Life" Wakefield always used Mirabelli (sp) as his catcher. Some pitchers/catchers just "work" together. __________________ Life is Good!

01-09-2006, 11:58 AM	#13
Sublimity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: This thread. Posts: 3,199	I'd say catcher's effects are pretty limited to the minor leagues, in a Crash Davis with the original Nukester kind of way. In the majors, it boils down to helping the pitcher remember the scouting report of the hitters and keeping him in rhythm with calls he likes. Not doing either of those well would probably not effect his pitching much, but could make him pretty disgruntled. Eh, my thoughts anyway. At the ML level, the pitchers know what pitches they're comfortable with. If it was the catcher's exclusive job to call the game, they wouldn't let pitchers shake off signs. __________________ mrs ria: I hereby dub Sublimity the Glorious Upholder of the 5B3. Current leading vote-getter in the Worst Poster in OT History poll.

01-07-2006, 10:21 PM	#3
kingpin1976 Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 402	I think a handling pitchers or calling a game rating for catchers would be nice.

01-08-2006, 03:23 AM	#5
DiMaggio5CF All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 921	I did not have battery relations with that catcher.

01-08-2006, 03:43 AM	#6
Hotwheelz All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,620	I seem to recall that Varitek couldnt catch the knuckler to save his life. Didnt he have a number of passed balls in one game? Something like 7. Or in a few games. Something. That was the reason he didnt catch Wakefield, like TotalEnd said.

01-09-2006, 08:57 AM	#10
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 10,334	"Work better with" does not necessarily equal "perform better with." In real life work situations, I'm sure you can point to people who you immediately click with and who you get great joy doing good work with, but (barring a totally disfunctional person in the mix) I'm sure you do high quality work with other people, too.

01-09-2006, 11:39 AM	#11
kingpin1976 Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 402	What about some catchers ability to frame pitches better then others? There is a major part between pitcher and catcher that numbers dont have to show.

01-09-2006, 12:49 PM	#14
kingpin1976 Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 402	I guess I come to the question that why do teams go out and sign veteran catchers who have nothing left who can barely crack .200 avg, then bying for a young cheaper catcher from their minors?

01-09-2006, 01:50 PM	#17
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	I pitched in high school also, and the only thing I particularly cared about when it came to my catcher is whether or not I had confidence that he could block a ball I put in the dirt. All the other things you mentioned are simply "comfort things" that are more dependent on the pitcher than what the catcher is actually doing.