The 255 Cap One More Tim

[Scott_S]

Hello,

I'll gladly start yet another thread on this and outline my little scenario.

I purchased this game in various inceptions, and this time, with OOTP4 (which is BY FAR, the best sports simulator EVER created) decided to take some time creating a mythical league of every player whom ever hit .300, won 20 games, hit 35+ HR or had an ERA of under 2.50.

Naturally, I encounter this same bug over and over. Naturally, our moderator here (who feels that customer service means that he's right and customers are incorrect) closes the threads.

Thus, I've taken the time to actually register and post to this thread.

Let me ask you this, Steve... If you'd sat around and spent, quite literally, fifty-seven 8HR+ days plugging in all of these stats as I did, would you think it's okay to leave it as it is?

Nonetheless, my main reason for posting this isn't that I've not read the debate. And, mind you, I'm also a purist as many here are, but this was something I felt would be an interesting experiment. What can I say, I'm a wee bit different than most folks.

My main motivation for posting is the BLATANT disregard you seem to have for customers of the company which has you in it's employ.

I personally don't care how many leagues you run, how well you know baseball, or how long you've been involved with OOTP.

All I DO know is that the instant I saw this program years ago, I was not only impressed with the program itself, but the way in which the CUSTOMERS were treated. That being, the quick patches, and the actual concern for those who BUILT the company and spread the word.

Now, what do I see? Well, basic contempt. Basic 'it's a feature'

Basic "I'm on a powertrip and it's my board."

Let me learn ya somethin', Steve. It's people such as myself who PAY your salary. Hate to break it to you. But it's the truth.

And before you just dismiss this post as another angry (which I am) attack from someone without any experience in this industry, let me tell you a little about myself.

I built one of the largest dot-com corporations in the US (hence, the ability to spend the length of time I do playing with this game.. I don't need to work) and sold said company a few years back before the dot-com blazeout.

Oh, did I mention how I built it?

Customer service.

And with that, you can just powertrip my thread and lock it or kill it. Whatever floats your boat.

Best,

Scott_S

(And to think, my initial contact to .400 software studios was going to be along the lines of a major investment. Instead, I think my money will be going towards a different, competing simulator.)

(Sorry Markus... you do a MONSTER job, but this little corporate attitude taken by your rep is harming your company, and in turn, your program's repuation. This sorta thing DOES catch up with a company.)

[Mike D]

Dude get off the board. I have stayed out of this for far too long. You might have started a dot.com, but all that makes you is a lucky moron. They have said the will address it down the line, and guess what, I believe they will. What do you want, them to personally come to your house and reprogram it in front of your eyes? You know what, even if they didn't I wouldn't be surprised if you still weren't happy that you weren't listed in the credits as Chief Bitch. They are going to address it. Live with that.

[Scott_S]

Already plan to leave the board at some point very shortly.

And all I've seen is that it 'may be addressed' The first thing I saw was that it would mean doubling, and the typical 'it's not a bug, it's a feature nonsense' that I see thrown around all over the place.

If I did miss that it would specifically be addressed and patched, then I'm very pleased. But, really, I already got around the problem, by editing the ballpark factors.

My point on the thread is the disrespect that the is shown the customers by the 'power that be here' on the board. It's changed, and I'm not the only one who has noticed it. And, it's fairly recent.


The smart-aleck responses (I can and do read between the lines) and the quick locks when someone in charge decides a debate is over is poor customer service at best. Especially the second thread that I saw posted on this subject where, something to the effect of 'Thank you for pointing out that this thread will be locked.'

An appropriate response would've been, in my eyes something such as this.

"Hello USERNAME,

I understand your frustration with this issue and we will be looking into seeing if we can solve this dilemma. No promises, but we WILL try our best. In the other thread, it's been shown that this is an issue with more than one customer, and whereas some of the points made didn't seem valid, since we at .400 software studios are committed to creating the best sports simulation firm in the industry, we will be looking into this. Thank you for this comment. Please don't take offense, but I'm going to lock this thread."


In ANY industry, there's the concept that the customer is always right. This, in my view, is NOT the case.

But I firmly do believe that the customer should be RESPECTED.

As I said, this is the best game EVER created in terms of a simulator and the ONLY game in which I've spent this amount of time playing. I'm not asking for my money back, I'm not even asking them to fix it.

He's the moderator and, in my view, should be held to a higher standard. But he's also the head of CS at a corporation now.

OOTP is going mainstream. It's fairly obvious. Hence, my original intent to initiate contact, privately of course, in terms of financial backing for this product.

If you walk into a store, and a clerk tells you 'sorry, too bad' and blows you off, that's not something anyone should have to deal with. Try it where you work. See what happens if you blow off someone who pays your bills (salary, whatnot.)

And, hate to say it, over a million and a half customers isn't luck in the least bit. I've done this for 20 years, I've done it before, the dot-com being only the latest in a string of successful endeavors I've found myself involved at the helm of over the years.

Best,

Scott_S

(P.S. note that I didn't drop to vulgarity in either of my posts.)

[Mike D]

99.9% of the people who have posted to this board asking a question has gotten a respectful answer from steve or scott or even Malleus occasionally. Surprisingly, you really are the only one who hasn't. So, maybe, just maybe it's something about you. Call me crazy, but maybe your tone of voice or your actions makes it a little hard for someone to respect you. I don't, and you have 20 years experience doing whatever you claim to do. Sorry man, respect is earned not giving. And I used to work in retail, and I got to say, if a customer disrespects me, they won't get respect back. And keep in mind, my comments in no way reflect the opinions of anyone else on this board but myself. But if you do intend to leave the board go. Just go already. Everyone is tired of hearing the same crap from you. And I didn't use vulgarity, I used a word found in a dictionary... Can't be a bad word if it's in there.. and if it is, please don't tell my mommy...


Good Day..... I said good day

[Scott_S]

Ooookay... we're playing personal attack here.

I'll disengage here after this post.

I've never had a personal response from Steve. If you took the time to read my initial post (instead of react in defense of him and attack me personally when I obviously don't know you (or really care who you are.)

If, for the record as I stated, I just registered, it wouldn't be possible for me to have received a reply from Steve.

As I did state however, my trigger was a response directed at another user.

And the Censorship thread below this one seems to support the fact that I'm not alone in this feeling, although I've not taken the time to read it over in it's entirety. I have ball to play.

Furthermore, as I did state, I had a tone in my post. That tone was anger, and I stated it as such.

My post wasn't about me, as you've decided it is. Whatever. I've no beef with you on a personal level.

And if a customer disrespects someone, the typical response is to think rotten thoughts about them, and then smile and bite the tongue. It's called professionalism.

One question though, and it's rhetorical... if 'everyone is tired of me' well, that must be a record since only you've posted to this thread as far as I can see? And I just registered moments ago.

And then, in the next statement, you say that your opinions are only your own. The two statements, well, seem to be a bit mutually exclusive. That is, if your opinions aren't that of the whole board, but on the other hand everyone is tired of me...?

I could add a clever and witty personal insult, but I'll disengage as I said. I always disengage when the point is missed and a personal attack is the response.

Again.. professional.

Best,

Scott_S

[p090]

Mike D,

Just so you know. Not everyone voices their opinions. I have seen things which have made me feel rather put off at how people are treated in these threads at times. I chose not to let it become an issue for me personally and just stick to playing my game and posting my results in the Dynasty forum.

My only point is that just because it is not in print on the screen does not mean it is not noticed. Sure there are plenty of discussions on various topics but there are many many people who read and have opinions that do not share them (both good and bad). The fact of the matter is, you never know who might be reading, so would it not be wise to ALWAYS put your best foot forward in any instance?

[southpawsean]

I really don't know what you expect out of your post. It is clear you don't like the customer service which I would say about 99 percent of the people think is wonderful. You honestly just sound like some rich snob who didn't get his way and decides to shoot his mouth until someone begs for forgiveness or you get your way. I grew up in one of those rich neighborhoods so your type is all too familiar. I will agree it is probably a problem in the game and I'm sorry it took away from your enjoyment of the game. But being in the computer software industry myself I can assure you there will NEVER be software written that is completely perfect. I'm sure these guys are constantly looking to improve the game and fix bugs by fixing the ones of greatest importance first. Seeing as your the only person I've seen complain about it, I'm sure its not there #1 priority. Respect is a two way street, and I know no matter if your a customer or not, if you don't show respect for someone your not going to get it back.

[jameyhammock]

Originally posted by southpawsean

...snip...

Respect is a two way street, and I know no matter if your a customer or not, if you don't show respect for someone your not going to get it back.

I think what Scott_S is talking about (I don't want to put words in his mouth, though) is the growing tendency on these boards to belittle those who post complaints about the software. Even valid complaints.

Many of the instances of this that I see are not representatives of the company, but other OOTP users. The "it's that way on purpose" and "Markus is doing the best he can" answers are given a little too often when there are real issues with the software.

I agree that Markus does an amazing job and has put out a very good sim and does the most amazing job of getting out patches, but the fact is that this is a commercial product and we, as customers, have a right to voice legitimate complaints without being blasted.

I know people would like for these boards to one big group hug , but since this board is set up as the primary point of customer contact with the "business," this is also the place to come with problems and critical feedback.

Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people who post tremendous amounts of thoughtful/useful content to these boards, but there's a growing amount of "less helpful" content, as well.

Again, not presuming to know exactly what triggered Scott_S's post, I get the feeling that this growing amount of "noise" was a factor.

[Glen]

Scott,

This topic has been covered a great deal on this board as of late for some reason, and I feel like putting in my 2 cents.

As a person that has spent a great deal of time working with people, whether it be retail or support, I feel that I have some background in this situation.

Now, regarding the bug. This topic has been posted about a few times, that I have seen, probably even more than that, in the last few weeks. It's a known issue at this point, and it's being worked on to correct it, as we have been told.

Now, seeing as how you have a solid background in customer service, let me ask you a question. If you were to hear the exact same issue from people over and over again over a period of time, the first thing you would start to do is to control the issue stating that it is something that you know about, and you're working to take care of it. Leaving these threads open just allows people, who are going to share the exact same information, to complain about an issue that is being worked on.

For you to think that Steve doesn't understand that we pay his salary, is just silly. He spends, from what I can see in the range of posting times, 12 to 18 hours a day working with this game, moderating the board and dealing with people. Take a look around, do you see a group of people that are really upset with the level of service that he's provided? I know at least 5 times where I have had the opportunity to ask Steve a question, and he's responded in a very polite manner and helped me with my issue.

If you feel that you have been slighted, the best way to take action is to complain to the company. It's not too difficult to find the email addresses of the people for 400 software studios. What always gets to me is how people will come to a companies website and put an attack towards a site or company or an individual person, albeit in your case a subtle one, and expect people to come forth to rally to their cause.

The issue is a known one. That is clear. What you are trying to accomplish here, other than to launch attacks towards Steve, is not really apparent. You could have just posted a nice polite message about the issue you found and that you were curious as to why the thread had been locked down, but you chose to go a different direction. You chose to speak to Steve in a condescending tone, and try to "learn him somethin'".

I'm not a "dot.com" millionaire, but I know people, and how to deal with most people. Here's what I know.

Walk into a store and throw a veiled insult to a customer service representative while complaining about an issue and see how much help you'll get from him. Walk into a store and politely mention an issue that you have, without insulting him, and I think you know which answer will be a better one.

I guess that's what I have to say about that.

Glen

[Tiger Fan]

I thought long and hard before replying to this thread. Those of you who have been on this board for any length of time know I generally restrict my posts to the dynasty thread and trying to assist users with historical sim related questions. I have always steered clearing of the threads that criticize others on the board or complain about various game issues in a non-constructive manner.

However, like many others I have become increasingly frustrated with the attacks on the 400software management in the recent past.

I am not a dot.com mogul. I am not a software expert. All I am is someone who has found a game they really enjoy and has his own ideas on how it can be better. However, in my humble opinion, for someone to attack Steve for poor customer service is about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. For someone who says they have lurked on this board for two years how can you not recall the countless issues that have been brought up by various users and promptly fixed by the OOTP team. Please show me a piece of software that has received more support than Steve and Markus have given the OOTP community.

In this particular case Steve said he and Markus are well aware of the rollover bug on era and rbi's and will look closely at the problem. He also has mentioned on numerous occassions it is a memory issue and to solve it would affect file sizes greatly. (Forgive me if I dont have the technical explaination quite right). It is always a delicate balance for games to be as in-depth as possible but still be able to be played on the average home system. I imagine this is even more of an issue with text based games as I would expect many users gravitated here originally when they become frustrated graphics based games would not run on their system. There are tons of features we in this community want - some many of us want and some just a few want. It is Markus and Steve's job to determine what are possible to add within the guidelines mentioned above. Steve has said he closed the thread because there was another one stating the exact same thing on the front page of the board at the same time. I don't see what the big deal is with that, unless you want to use it as fodder to get on a soapbox and complain about censorship or some other ridiculous notion.

A second issue is just how rare this problem is if you are using realistic league settings. I have played probably 500 seasons since I started with OOTP2 and have never had the problem occur with rbi's or earned runs. Perhaps the league settings you are using are totally unrealistic for what the game is designed for. It is Out of the Park baseball not Out of the Park Slo-Pitch. I don't know how you could have a player get 256+ rbi's in a single season or surrender 256+ earned runs and still consider your league to be baseball.

Do not take these comments as a personal assault on yourself. However, do take them as an attack on your BLATANT attempt to come off like a big shot while having little idea of, or intentionally ignoring, the great customer support Steve has given in the past and I am sure will continue to provide.

[hisstorymn]

I believe this question has been answered in previous threads. Just because things haven't been done to YOUR satisfaction most of us are.

Hey if you've got all this money why not develop your own sim and have 3000 RBI's 600 HR's and nonsuch.

I think the rest of u will stick with OOTP 4.

Have fun

Hey OOTP guys Rock On!

[Draft Dodger]

I agree that there is a tendency from many people - including Steve - to use the "it's a one-man operation, and he's doing the best he can" excuse a wee bit too often. There are things that need to be addressed in the game if we are to take 400 Studios seriously.

The 255 RBI bug is not one of them. If you were to poll OOTP players, and ask them what the biggest thing they'd like to see changed/fixed in the game, this bug would be far, far down the list. It has been argued again and again and again here, and most of us agree that it's not really that big of a deal (except to a select few, it seems, who seem to think that "customer service" means catering to each and every individual whim).

The majority of users are not bothered by the 255 limit, and the majority of users are tired of seeing this dead horse being beaten to a pulp. The guy who started that thread made his point, it was debated and debated back and forth, until finally the arguements were getting stretched so thin that the thread was turning nasty, and Steve, as the moderator closed it. In closing the thread he was showing GOOD customer service (do you want to visit a message board where people are having vehement arguements over one feature of the game?).

For you to attack Steve is simply wrong. For you to extrapolate "BLATANT disregard" for customers because he locked a thread that had more than run it's course is absurd - and I'm no fanboy of either the game or 400 studios. Steve does a good job here, and I would say so if I didn't think so. He also made the right choice in closing down that thread, and, again, MOST of his customers thank him for doing so.

Obviously, you can't make everyone happy; I'd be willing to bet if you shared the name of your mythical dot com you built on "customer service", you'll find people who didn't share your high opinion of CS with that company.

[Draft Dodger]

you know, I just read back through the famous deleted thread, and now I'm even more annoyed.

Here's post 1:
It's not a bug, but by design. It has to do with storage size limitations, you would have to pretty much double the amount of space taken to move it to the next "storage amount"(current one is 255, next is 511) inorder to allow for larger numbers to be stored.

Seems pretty basic, and definitely not a "it's not a bug, it's a feature" response. BIG difference between a bug, a feature, and a design decision. He explains the difference, maybe you didn't understand.

Post 2:
The game is not perfect is this topic an "issue"? I can think of maybe 5-7 times(just guessing) when it has been brought up. Bottom line, not gonna change this year, future years is a possibility. But won't be part of the update.

Besides, I thought only "Triple Play" had guys driving in multiple 100's of runs in a season...hehe

Pretty straightforward - the games not perfect, this may be fixed in the future, but it's not high on the priority list.

Post 3:
Several folks have "implied" that OOTP was designed so that the user could create any baseball world he imagined.....this statement could not posibly be thought of as true.

EVERY game has limits and by some of the things folks have said if we created a game that didn't allow you to do "whatever" you wanted then it is a flaw...."what the?"

The game was designed to give you "alot" of flexibility and the ability to change and edit many things, sounds like some of you guys are assuming way too much.

As I stated before, it is something that may be looked at in the future and if it is the decision may be to change it....I don't know.


Again, nothing insulting or contemptful here.

Post 4 (in response to the argument involving a 1948 minor league)
A bit of a stretch, don't you think? Can you tell me how many people are using this league to play OOTP right now? Ok, granted it has happened in professional baseball but a result like that is hardly a basis for adding it into a game...IMO

Alot of interesting points have been brought up in this thread but it's about time to shut it down

You're right - Steve's horrible customer service is really bogging this company down. He was about the only level-headed poster once you got 3 or 4 pages into this thread. It's obvious from reading these that he has a blatant disregard for customer service. Let's can him.

[spleen1015]

Hey! Steve! Mark Cuban plays OOTP!

[Glen]

Too funny... that was my first thought.

I'll take a Heath Blizzard.

Who are you picking in the draft tommorow?

Glen

[Cooleyvol]

No long reply from me, but here's my thoughts:

Steve S,

IF you started a dot com and sold it for mega bucks, good for you. What does that have to do with this "problem"? Sounds like a little bragging or lying to me. Anyway, I've read through all of this stuff and I'd say that Steve handled himself as he always does. PROFESSIONALLY.

If you want my opinion, you are some spoiled brat who didnt get his way when he wanted something changed and went off the deep end!! Good riddance.

For you to say that he is a bad CS person is pure bull**** and serves as proof that you have NOT lurked around these boards for two years. Steve has always been the most helpful person on this board and, if I were in his shoes, I would have blown several times.

And another thing, I'm sure Markus and the guys won't miss your financial backing at all, they seem to be doing fine themselves.


Steve, you're a saint!!

St. Steve!!

[fluharty]

While Scott_S was very polite and fairly well spoken the fact that he based his opinion on so little information makes me want to dismiss his post altogether. Those of us that have been here posting and reading posts for several months know that CS is important to .400 and, in fact, I would go as far to say that the customers drive the focus of the company to a larger degree than most modern corporations. I think if Scott_S stuck around for a while he would see that. Also, I find it difficult to believe that he would withdraw an investment based on a single customer representative. I find it ever harder to believe that he would invest in a compatiter for that same reason. I think he, in fact, made up the entire I'm-a-rich-guy-that-does-not-need-to-work-and-I-was-about-to-give-you-a-big-wad-of-cash-except-you-screwed-it-up persona just to try and spark some discent on the board. Steve has probably already surmised this, which is why I assume he declined to rely to the post. The worst kind of troll- a polite, well-spoken one!

[Kezzek]

Sorry, "Scott_S the Dot.Com King", but you come across as a self-important blow-hard with no real point.

The issue has been addressed repeatedly on the boards. 400 Studios is looking into it and will evaluate a possible design change. What more can you ask?

More professionalism, you say?

Let me put it this way since we're "name dropping" in a sense.

I ran a website and messageboard community for 3 years. I took it from 300 visitors to 30,000 registered, active posters (with 2-3 times that many anons). I established a TEAM of moderators to help out with keeping the boards in order. We were reknowned for professionalism.

I see the same type of professionalism from Steve (and Andreas when he posts) every day. And he's basically working alone in the forums. I needed the help of a team!

So maybe it's time to re-evaluate your judgemental tendencies.

[Drinky Crow]

Scott S. is just here to cause trouble. Plenty of people post complaints without getting jumped because they don't get on their high horse with dire predictions of doom for OOTP because of their "bad" customer service.
His question was handled as well as it was ever going to be, at insane length and here he is, posting it again just to show us all how smart he is. There are people like him on every board and they pop up now and then to make everyone insane, push moderators to the breaking point and generally stir up the flames.
I'd like to see him solve a "customer service" issue in this same empty-headed way at any brick-and-mortar business in the world. What does he do? Sit down in the doorway at Best Buy because his VCR clock won't set itself? Sheesh!
Whether well-written or poorly written a trouble-maker is a trouble-maker. He didn't post to resolve a problem. I'll save my patience and goodwill for the people who actually want help.

P.S. This whole stupid mess is because OOTP won't track more than 255 RBI? Sheesh! That's what he got his knickers in a twist over? That the program does not yet have ultimate flexibility in every way shape and form? Criminey! This program has handled everything I've thrown at it that has happened in the real world including 20+ inning games, ejections, multiple injuries, I mean, the list goes on and on. Maybe his next complaint will be that you can't change the gravity so he can have baseball games on Mars. Pudknocker!

[hisstorymn]

I think the next time Mr Ima Dotcom posts here we should ignore him and his post. This nimrod is getting off on his posts dragging on