2022-23 NFL Season Discussion Thread

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

The kicker absolutely deserves blame, but it's a different kind of blame. But part of the core of sports is that often players try hard and still fail. There's no real comparison of Moore's contribution to the loss and the kicker's. Piniero was trying to win the game and did nothing selfish and intentional to contribute to his team's loss. The same cannot be said of Moore.

Again, I have no qualms w/the flag. But I think it is too harsh to completely color what Moore did as "intentional". As if he didn't care about a penalty. He didn't think about the penalty. it was every bit as spontaneous as Brittney Chastain ripping off her jersey in front of 100000 plus. He just should have known better.

I suppose I'd like to see a middle ground here. Personally, I like to see honest & spontaneous displays of joy, celebrating with teammates and so forth. I do not, however, like to see all the "look at me, I'm a badass" stuff. The angry, "show me respect" poses that dominate the NBA and have also infested the NFL are particularly odious, IMO. I'm neither 100% for or against penalties for this behavior, but as I said: Middle ground. I'd prefer to see an evolution to where some players show that enthusiasm & joy that I mentioned, but also approach it from the perspective of "ya, I expected to do that because I've done it before, and I plan to do it again, so I'm going to quickly celebrate by hugging & high-fiving my teammates and maybe acknowledge the crowd, and then get back to work." (I fully realize that there are many who LOVE the choreographed stuff, and who also love the angry "I'm a badass stuff." Not everyone see it as classless sign of the times, like I do... And some of the choreographed stuff I actually like, I'll admit... most happy & silly celebrations that go along with smiles, rather than angry poses, are cool by me.)

As long as the player isn't trying to downgrade the other team w/their celebrating I could care less. Yeah I prefer Barry Sanders tossing the ball to the ref. But I try to distance what I like & dislike from what is right & wrong. And how people celebrate within the the guidelines of common decency isn't a hill I feel worth dying on. Why make an issue out of what isn't an issue?

As for the helmet rule itself, I'll plagiarize & edit what you wrote in the "who's the HR record-holder" thread:

Nah. I think there is more than one issue here. Why is taking your helmet off during a dead ball period evil? It affects NOTHING. Flagging it makes a problem where there isn't one. There's no competitive advantage. There is no delay to the game. Its an appeasement to old farts who like to dictate the benign behavior of other people. Karen gonna Karen.

Moore should not be excused because one disagrees with the rule (and I'm not saying you are making that claim). Moore knew the rule, selfishly broke it, and cost his team.

Glad you said that, cause I think he should have been flagged. It is in the rules, it should be enforced. Everyone knew that from the get go. It was stupid on his part.

I don't think that the low bar set by some owners should be an excuse for promoting classless on-the-field behavior by players. Although I realize that some don't see the angry & selfish stuff as being classless. As with many things, YMMV

You're right. I don't see it as classless. I see it as individuals being themselves. Sanders giving the ball to the ref or Cam giving the ball to a kid in the stands are just different choices. Heisman poses, doing the funky chicken, grabbing popcorn, throwing the ball into the stands, spiking the ball are all benign choices.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Again, I have no qualms w/the flag. But I think it is too harsh to completely color what Moore did as "intentional". As if he didn't care about a penalty. He didn't think about the penalty. it was every bit as spontaneous as Brittney Chastain ripping off her jersey in front of 100000 plus. He just should have known better.

I guess we'll never know, but it was highly likely to be one of two things:

1. An emotional reaction without thought, which is somewhat understandable but speaks to a lack of self-control & awareness (not an endorsement but not a crime, either).
2. The incorrect & selfish assumption that "I just won the game for us, so I don't give a damn about some stupid rule! It's all about me!"

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

As long as the player isn't trying to downgrade the other team w/their celebrating I could care less. Yeah I prefer Barry Sanders tossing the ball to the ref. But I try to distance what I like & dislike from what is right & wrong. And how people celebrate within the the guidelines of common decency isn't a hill I feel worth dying on. Why make an issue out of what isn't an issue? ... Its an appeasement to old farts who like to dictate the benign behavior of other people. Karen gonna Karen.

While I pretty much agree, at the same time I don't see a problem with rules that attempt to enforce some class & decorum... Apparently we are both ok with rules that punish celebrations that downgrade the other team. You disagree, but I also approve of rules that attempt to curtail the selfish & angry "it's all about me!" displays. There are surely others that disagree with us both and love the taunting-the-opponent stuff. So with that having been said, I don't see any need to call name-call as "old farts" & "Karens" those with whom you - hopefully, respectfully, but perhaps not - disagree.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

You're right. I don't see it as classless. I see it as individuals being themselves. Sanders giving the ball to the ref or Cam giving the ball to a kid in the stands are just different choices. Heisman poses, doing the funky chicken, grabbing popcorn, throwing the ball into the stands, spiking the ball are all benign choices.

I pretty much agree. As I indicated previously, I mainly don't like the angry "look at me" stuff. Rather than rules to enforce it, I'd prefer to see some sort of natural evolution away from it... As a few have said, in effect: "Freedom should be in doing not what we like, but what we ought." One of my favorite quotes, btw

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

While I pretty much agree, at the same time I don't see a problem with rules that attempt to enforce some class & decorum... Apparently we are both ok with rules that punish celebrations that downgrade the other team. You disagree, but I also approve of rules that attempt to curtail the selfish & angry "it's all about me!" displays. There are surely others that disagree with us both and love the taunting-the-opponent stuff. So with that having been said, I don't see any need to call name-call as "old farts" & "Karens" those with whom you - hopefully, respectfully, but perhaps not - disagree.

Wasn't an attempt at name calling or insult. I call myself an old fart. What it is is a descriptive term to call attention to the attitude behind the rule.

Why would people peacefully BBQ'ing in the park get anyone so annoyed that they would call the police? Why would someone removing his helmet ruin a person's day so badly they felt the need to change the rulebook? It's the same problem. If it doesn't change the meter one iota in my life, why bother? Just move on to something else. Look away. Let it be. It's no wonder the world is so polarized and distant. Cause we let small inconsequential crud bunch up our panties and feel our comfort level has to be enforced on others. Who wants to be around people who think like that? I sure don't. Let me be me. Let you be you. I don't have to like it. I can just get on with my life.

[jumpSeat]

Every time I see Aaron Rodgers, I can't help thinking:

"Why is Steve Carell playing quarterback for the Green Bay Packers?"

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

If you don't care, why bother answering the post? Just skip it. Geez.

I asked cause I do care what somebody besides myself thinks.

The main reason I said that is because it's really hard to tell since they all play under different situations. For example, how good is Tua, really? Same with Jalen Hurts. It's easy to look good when you have an ideal situation around you. But how far do you fall when it's not there? I can't speak for anyone else, but it's easier for to tell which QBs are better that are on the same team.

[jumpSeat]

They didn't face the toughest opponent tonight, but the Eagles are definitely looking like the real deal. They're flying high as the only undefeated team in the league with a perfect 8-0 record. Gotta love the high tempo offense and all the different defensive looks. Makes me think this team is extremely well coached!

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by jumpSeat

They didn't face the toughest opponent tonight, but the Eagles are definitely looking like the real deal. They're flying high as the only undefeated team in the league with a perfect 8-0 record. Gotta love the high tempo offense and all the different defensive looks. Makes me think this team is extremely well coached!

I agree with you. I just can't see an RPO team in the Super Bowl. But there's always a first time.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I agree with you. I just can't see an RPO team in the Super Bowl. But there's always a first time.

Already has been, The Panthers.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Already has been, The Panthers.

Yup. In fact the Panthers had the best offense (points scored) in the league that season...

The other way it could happen is that - regardless of the type of offense - it could be a strong defense carrying a mediocre offense to the Big Game. Plenty of precedence for that, including those same Panthers' opponent - the Broncos - and a few NY Giants teams that come to mind...

[monkeyman576]

The Eagles are consistant and a quality team. But I will become a believer if they beat a top 5 calibur team. (aside from the Vikings, who also have not played a difficult schedule)

[thehef]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

The Eagles are consistant and a quality team. But I will become a believer if they beat a top 5 calibur team. (aside from the Vikings, who also have not played a difficult schedule)

A pretty friendly schedule, indeed. Tennessee at home, the Giants 2x, and the Cowboys on the road would seem to be their only quality opponents. If they split those and otherwise beat the teams their supposed to beat, they're a 15-2 team.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Already has been, The Panthers.

Also basically the Seahawks in 2013 and 2014, although Russell Wilson was always more of a thrower than Cam Newton et al.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by thehef

Absolute moron of the day: DJ Moore of the Carolina Panthers. Thinking of himself, rather than the team, with a stupid "look at me!" move (taking off his helmet) after a great play... Idiot.

There are penalties that occur due to hustle, aggressiveness, instinct, and just plain bad luck. But penalties like Moore's - when you make a conscious decision to put yourself above the team during a non-competitive moment - are inexcusable.

Sure, his kicker didn't help him out, missing the unnecessarily (due to Moore's bonehead penalty) long extra point attempt, and then missing a very makeable FG in OT. But looked at on it's own - the only way to properly evaluate any play - Moore's penalty was just dumb.

(It's actually a shame that Piniero's missed kicks - especially the one in OT - contributed to the loss. They will take the edge of the criticism that Moore so deserves.)

Oddly enough, I am prepared to accept and empathize with this response below if it truly was a spur of the moment, "wasn't thinking" event. (I had one of those while driving today. I was lucky.)

"I was like, 'Whatever ... I guess nobody ever got emotional and did something out of emotion,'" Moore said.
...

"Regrets? Nah," he said on Friday. "Not to that extent. Should I not have done it? No. Did I do it? Yeah. And I own up to that. It was just like in the moment type of deal. Can I say if I would do it differently in that moment? Nah, probably not."

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Also basically the Seahawks in 2013 and 2014, although Russell Wilson was always more of a thrower than Cam Newton et al.

Russel Wilson and the Seahawks were not an RPO team. Not even close.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Already has been, The Panthers.

Negative. Not in my opinion. The 2019 Ravens and this year's Eagles are the closest to it. The Bears are starting as well. But that Panthers team was not an RPO team. Very little at best.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Russel Wilson and the Seahawks were not an RPO team. Not even close.

They most certainly had RPO as part of the playbook.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

They most certainly had RPO as part of the playbook.

As part of the playbook, ok. But nothing like the 2019 Ravens, or this year's Eagles. I think the Bears are starting to adopt it now too. Titans are next.

[Syd Thrift]

I mean, the league evolves, and the 2012-13 Seahawks in particular ran a *ton* of RPO and designed runs to Russell Wilson. It might have been harder to suss out because he tended to pass more often on those plays than most RPO quarterbacks (and he turned into a pretty pass-heavy guy as he progressed in his career, which is usually not the way RPO quarterbacks age) but I watched that team a lot and they ran RPO stuff fairly often.

Also of course the 49ers came very, very close to getting into the Owl in 2014, losing out to the (RPO) Seahawks in the NFCCG on a last-second interception in the end zone by Richard Sherman.

[Déjà Bru]

Jets are giving Buffy Bills a run for their money in the Battle of New York (being waged in New Jersey).

EDIT: Who would have thought? The Jets seem to have something with Zach Wilson but give credit to their "D" in this one.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Jets are giving Buffy Bills a run for their money in the Battle of New York (being waged in New Jersey).

EDIT: Who would have thought? The Jets seem to have something with Zach Wilson but give credit to their "D" in this one.

The AFC East is developing into a division to be reckoned with! I don't know that there any Super Bowl caliber teams in it other than the Bills, but top to bottom there are no easy wins...

At any rate, and staying in that division, Tua really got bailed out by a no-call PI. On Miami's final two meaningful (not counting the kneel-downs) possessions, he blew it:

- On 4th & a yard in the red zone, he significantly underthrew a wide-open-in-the-flat Durham Smyth.
- On 3rd & 10 at his own 23, he underthrew Jaylen Waddle on a long-ish pass.

Neither play would've clinched the win for the Dolphins, but either would've really put Chicago in difficult position... Then the refs totally missed an obvious PI call that would've put the Bears in game-tying FG range, at least...

As a long-suffering Dolphins fan, I'll take it. But still... On both plays Tua was under a bit of pressure, but both were, IMO, plays that very good QB's make... So I'm still not sold on Tua. My take is that he's back to what he was when he was at Alabama: Looking very good because he's surrounded by top talent... I still think he's a future clipboard-holder. I'll be pleasantly surprised if that turns out not to be the case.