Pete Rose sycophants

[chucksabr]

Gambling allegations are never aside.

[Orcin]

* sigh *

Haters just gotta hate.

[Syd Thrift]

Or else, like, you know, gambling is something that keeps you out of the game. Pete Rose the person is not in the Hall because Pete Rose the person gambled on baseball while Pete Rose the person was managing. I have nothing particular to say about Pete Rose the bicycling elephant or any other avatars of Pete Rose which you wish to conjure.

[Orcin]

Well, the one thing that cannot be denied is that Pete Rose has more hits than anyone that ever played the game. That alone should have him in the Hall of Fame next to all of the other players that made mistakes, including gambling, in their lives. Go ahead and shout me down if you wish. I am done with this thread.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Orcin

* sigh *

Haters just gotta hate.

Damn "haters" and their "rules" and "facts".

Originally Posted by Orcin

Well, the one thing that cannot be denied is that Pete Rose has more hits than anyone that ever played the game.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Orcin

That alone should have him in the Hall of Fame next to all of the other players that made mistakes, including gambling, in their lives.

Except there's a rule against it, as many people have already illustrated, along with why rules shouldn't apply uniformly. I mean outside of you supporting allowing players, coaches, owners, umpires, etc... to bet on games that they're playing in, your'e saying he should have an exception to the rule because he has HOF numbers, which isn't how it works.

Originally Posted by Orcin

Go ahead and shout me down if you wish.

Presenting counter arguments to your statement = being shouted down by haters? Okie dokie.

Originally Posted by Orcin

I am done with this thread.

Congrats?

[Mancandy]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Now, I've been blasted for this by a certain Mr. Schilling before, but I find $1M, or even $485k a pretty damn good salary, especially since it is paid to young or career fringe players on minimum contracts. (Don't even get me started on the high-priced veterans)

Name one profession other than in sports where a newcomer, or somebody who's performed well below expectations for a decade or more, gets paid the spectacular sum of $485k per year. I find this a princely payment and I really can't cry for them.

Why, I'd be happy to! You name a profession other than in sports that makes billions of dollars a year off the backs of 750 hard working employees, who are the best 0.1% of the best 1% who are in the profession and are as close to unreplaceable as one can get? You show me that, and I will show you a profession where employees receive a spectacular sum.

Sorry, but if you're worth millions to your employers, you deserve to be paid millions. That's how this wonderful country of ours works. Fans may not like it, but there's a lovely little country south of Floria where it works the way they seem to think it should, maybe they should move there. It's a little easier to get there now than it was a few months ago.

Originally Posted by stl jason

just my 2 cents on this one... even if we assume it's true he only bet on the Reds to win; chances are, he didn't always win those games. Start losing too many of those bets and suddenly those bookies start pulling his strings for their benefit, whether he wants to make a bet or not.

A few people made this point, and it's very important. There are several reasons why "only betting on his team to win" is still worthy of a permanent ban. Unless he bet the same amount on every game all season long, which he didn't, not betting on some games is essentially the same as betting on them to lose. Not only does it alter the way he manages the game in which he doesn't bet, but there's that pesky affiliation with gamblers that can lead to a lot of things. When he doesn't bet, they can still bet against the Reds. And if his associates are betting against his team, that may even further alter the way he manages those games. And, of course, this opens up the possibility of gamblers telling him which games to "not bet on" instead of the other way around, and if he owes them enough money, he's going to listen to them. Desparate times, desparate measures and all that...and we know that Rose didn't always have a healthy bank account, given that he "allegedly" sold cocaine. (Paraphrasing an associate, "he wasn't a drug dealer, but he did what he needed to do.")

But beyond that, it's important to remember that he almost certainly did bet against the Reds. There's a reason he agreed to a lifetime ban to stop the investigation, and it's hard to imagine any other reason why he would want the investigation stopped given they had already found he bet on the Reds to win. John Dowd and others involved have said multiple times that they believe he bet against the Reds, and they certainly have more credibility than him.

As for the Baseball Hall of Fame, I do understand the argument that it is separate from MLB and has its own rules. I also understand the argument against the integrity clause - we mustn't forget that the intent behind that wording was to bolster the case of borderline players who had excellent character, with no expectation of using it against players with lesser reputations. This is why the Hall has become such a laughingstock with the handling of known and suspected PED users compared to other players who were in the same era and probably used(Johnson, Biggio, Thomas are in; Piazza, Pudge, Bagwell probably will be, etc) but there's apparently not enough proof, not to mention players of previous eras who we know cheated - up to and including Hank Aaron, who admitted to using amphetamines, which at the time were "illegal but not against MLB rules" just like the steroids McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens used.

Ultimately, I doubt it matters. I don't think he would be elected if he were on the ballot. I'd like to see the Hall address other issues like all the unqualified voters and the ballot limit first. Let's make sure we have a system that inducts the players who clearly belong in before we worry about debating anybody else. But for me, personally, after all these years of lying and playing the victim, being so combative and inflammatory, I don't think Rose deserves to have his punishment reduced. IMO, he just seems like a guy who's saying what he thinks people want to hear, not somebody who genuinely regrets what he did. And I think all the people in MLB and the HOF that matter feel the same way.

[chucksabr]

Gambling is the worst sin a participant can commit against Baseball, period. It is the one sin that undermines the competitive integrity of the game because of its potential to lead players into throwing games, or otherwise acting in a non-competitive manner in the service of satisfying a bet, or satisfying outside associates with betting ties to the game. Nothing else, not even the use of steroids, leads to this kind of behavior.

If players are led to act in a non-competitive manner with regard to the game on the field, it undermines the confidence that people have in the competitive integrity of the game, and since baseball relies on the perception of unfettered competitive integrity, the shattering of that confidence is a fatal blow to the game. Without unfettered competitive integrity, there is no baseball―there is only theater. And that's why gambling can never be allowed to sully the game that's played on the field under any circumstances, and Baseball has determined any participant who engages in this form of gambling while participating in the game must be expelled permanently, as a warning to all others who participate in the game. This is not my determination because I'm a hater who's gonna hate. This is Baseball's determination to make, and theirs alone.

I don't know how much more clearly this point can be made, but if anyone believes that maintaining this unfettered competitive integrity is not important to baseball, then they truly do not understand what Baseball is trying to accomplish with its business.

[MBarrett]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I don't know how much more clearly this point can be made, but if anyone believes that maintaining this unfettered competitive integrity is not important to baseball, then they truly do not understand what Baseball is trying to accomplish with its business.

The Houston Astros say hi.

[BaseballMan]

I agree with not allowing Rose to be directly involved with baseball as a manager, advisor ect. But at the same time i think they can still put him in the Hall for his accomplishments as a player. But dont hide the fact that he was banned for what he did. This isnt church. Im even ok with him being elected but not being allowed to be involved with any hall of fame functions or use his election to sell anything. Basically im ok with electing the player a Rose was and not the man who broke the rules. But im not sure if that would send the message its ok to break the rules or that even if you are a hall of famer you are not above the game and can be banned from the game you love.

[Jason Moyer]

I don't see how you can say someone isn't allowed to be an active participant in the game and then turn around and give him the highest award the game offers.

In all honesty I'd kind of like to see Rose reinstated and put on the BBWAA ballot, because I don't think there's much of a chance he'd get elected.

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I don't see how you can say someone isn't allowed to be an active participant in the game and then turn around and give him the highest award the game offers.

In all honesty I'd kind of like to see Rose reinstated and put on the BBWAA ballot, because I don't think there's much of a chance he'd get elected.

course, since Rose has been out of the game for more than 20 years, he wouldn't go on the regular ballot, but would be voted on by the Veteran's committee instead.

[Jason Moyer]

The Veterans Committee is even less likely to put him in.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I don't see how you can say someone isn't allowed to be an active participant in the game and then turn around and give him the highest award the game offers.

In all honesty I'd kind of like to see Rose reinstated and put on the BBWAA ballot, because I don't think there's much of a chance he'd get elected.

Dont they already do that? His records still stand. His championships still stand. Thats why i said put his career as a player in but keep his ban.
How about OJ's case?
He was already in the hall but do you think he would be invited to hall of fame functions even if he wasnt in jail?

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Dont they already do that? His records still stand. His championships still stand. Thats why i said put his career as a player in but keep his ban.
How about OJ's case?
He was already in the hall but do you think he would be invited to hall of fame functions even if he wasnt in jail?

Except Rose the player and Rose the manager are still the same person. Not like you can saw him in half and say this side is innocent, this side is guilty. The player and the manager are the same man and committed the same offence.

As for OJ, it's not baseball, so it's irrelevant.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Except Rose the player and Rose the manager are still the same person. Not like you can saw him in half and say this side is innocent, this side is guilty. The player and the manager are the same man and committed the same offence.

As for OJ, it's not baseball, so it's irrelevant.

You put the player in. Did they take players out that were involved with gambling casinos after baseball? The hall isnt a hall of perfect individuals.
As for the nfl, how is it not relevant? Is the nfl hall any less? Only difference is oj didnt gamble. He just killed a couple of people and threatened to kill a few more. Yet his bust remains in Canton.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

You put the player in. Did they take players out that were involved with gambling casinos after baseball? The hall isnt a hall of perfect individuals.
As for the nfl, how is it not relevant? Is the nfl hall any less? Only difference is oj didnt gamble. He just killed a couple of people and threatened to kill a few more. Yet his bust remains in Canton.

A player being involved in a casino after his career, and directly gambling on games in which he is a participant, are two very different things.

[Syd Thrift]

Murdering someone doesn't lessen the integrity of the game itself. What lessens the integrity of the game itself is if people begin to believe that the outcomes are predetermined, which is why we treat gambling far more harshly. So the OJ parallel doesn't work but not because he was in a different sport. If, for instance, George Brett was convicted of murder next week, it would say little to nothing about baseball.

As for Mantle and Mays being associated with casinos, if you can provide evidence that they also gambled on baseball while they were actually affiliated with the sport then yes, absolutely, I'd kick them out. In the case of Mantle in particular it's a bit problematic because he's no longer alive, and both players have already been elected into the Hall so you've got inertia working against you, but sure, yes, if they did stuff as bad as what Rose did, they should be excluded as well. What's funny is that you're unwittingly making my case for me here, as those guys *were* kicked out of the game, even though they weren't actively associated with it, until they broke their ties with the casinos. What Rose did is orders of magnitude worse and not undoable.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

A player being involved in a casino after his career, and directly gambling on games in which he is a participant, are two very different things.

Not saying one is worse but rather does the hall election mean forever no matter what happens and do we simply ignore Rose's accomplishments as a player?
Did he bet on his own team while playing?
I dont know. I want to believe the heros of baseball can do no wrong but i know history says otherwise. I guess honor his accomplishments. Wasnt he on the all century team?
But im not gonna lose sleep if he doesnt make it.

[Jason Moyer]

No one is ignoring Rose's accomplishments as a player. If you go to the hall of fame, there are displays honoring his career. He just doesn't have a plaque in the "hall of fame" itself.

[darkhorse]

I loved the opening salvo where the thread poster stated that Pete Rose played some major role in the Phillies 1980 championship. He was a lousy player during the regular season and postseason that year and Philly would have been much better off that year if he'd been hit by a bus and spent the year in traction.

Boo hoo. The cheater got and continues to receive his just reward.