Competitive balance discussion

[Mat]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'd be happy with a good idea, just haven't seen any in this thread that improves the game and/or makes financial sense for the developers.

Exactly.

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

And we seem to be back to the point that the whale teams will not disappear when there are newer versions of the games.

Whales can be caught with enough time and grinding, so long as they're no longer chasing any carrots on any sticks. What makes them whales is how much they spend, once that stops they're more like beached whales.

I fear in the whatever the current version is, whales will always be a plague. They will always severely tilt and/or just straight up break any semblance of competitive balance.

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'd be happy with a good idea, just haven't seen any in this thread that improves the game and/or makes financial sense for the developers.

I see a lot of people concluding it's not worth it to spend unless you're going to go bonkers. That means a lot of people who might have spent anywhere from say $5 to $50 or so won't do it after their experiences with the game and the broken competitive balance due to the whales.

If you can capture those people in a league that is pay per month with no ability to purchase PP, then you at least get some money from them.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by matingly23

I see a lot of people concluding it's not worth it to spend unless you're going to go bonkers. That means a lot of people who might have spent anywhere from say $5 to $50 or so won't do it after their experiences with the game and the broken competitive balance due to the whales.

If you can capture those people in a league that is pay per month with no ability to purchase PP, then you at least get some money from them.

I've read many people saying they've spent $20 to $50, so it seems to be fine. Plus we have no idea what people who do not post in this forum are spending. I'm pretty sure the company that produces the game and has access to this info is making the decision they feel works best. Anything else is speculation based on small sample size.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by matingly23

Whales can be caught with enough time and grinding, so long as they're no longer chasing any carrots on any sticks. What makes them whales is how much they spend, once that stops they're more like beached whales.

I fear in the whatever the current version is, whales will always be a plague. They will always severely tilt and/or just straight up break any semblance of competitive balance.

Hate to repeat what I said, but since you're repeating...

If they have 25 Perfect (or highly priced diamonds0 players, how long will you have to "grind' to get players as good as that? If I recall the math someone else did, it won't be in two years. So no, I would bet on the game being retired before that happens. Plus with the people not putting money in, where are these players going to come from? Not from the AH I would think.

[boxner1]

Originally Posted by matingly23

There are just too many whale stories here and on the discord chats to make me think competitive balance will ever exist in PT. A shame.

I think you either accept that if your account if free, you need to grind to build up whale-like points, or break out a few hundred $$. Neither sounds very fun.

But I do see a possible ray of sunshine on the not so distant horizon. Time passing should help the situation massively. The problem is magnified right now as PT is brand new.

I am thinking OOTP 19's PT will be a lot of fun after OOTP 20 comes out as I would imagine most Whales will switch over to 20 (and then to 21, 22, etc).

The most fun PT leagues IMO will be the ones that are for versions that are a year or two old and not so whale-infested. The problem will solve itself pretty much.

And I would still be willing to pay a small fee per month to play the old version if there's not enough whale $$ to cover the server/bandwidth/support costs.

Can't wait till this is the old version!

Except the abandoned whale teams in 19 will still be left in Perfect. God help you if you get promoted there. AFAIK your team is not deleted unless you access it at least X times per X period, so those whales will live until 19 itself dies.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'd be happy with a good idea, just haven't seen any in this thread that improves the game and/or makes financial sense for the developers.

Well, the overriding problem with Whales is they have unlimited access to PP by simply purchasing them. If F2P (at the Perfect level only) had ways of accumulating PP that could at least somewhat compete with Whales, that would be a start.


Perhaps achievements at Perfect level should be higher? It would be a reward for being competitive at the highest level and recognize the obvious difficulty of completing achievements at that level without changing anything the Whales can do.


That's my suggestion. There are probably some things I haven't considered and I'm certainly willing to discuss those things.


What I won't do is stand for being called a "whiner" who HAS to win to have fun. That's bull****.

[Mat]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

Perhaps achievements at Perfect level should be higher? It would be a reward for being competitive at the highest level and recognize the obvious difficulty of completing achievements at that level without changing anything the Whales can do.

I am assuming it will only be higher PP for those playing F2P? Or those that only spend $5 or less? Or $20 or less?

Otherwise these 'whales' are getting the same increase in PP as everyone else and this will not solve your issue.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Mat

I am assuming it will only be higher PP for those playing F2P? Or those that only spend $5 or less? Or $20 or less?

Otherwise these 'whales' are getting the same increase in PP as everyone else and this will not solve your issue.

No, everyone.


It would be enough for me to potentially save for those super high players over time but not enough PP to demotivate Whales to spend PP to get the players they want quicker.

[Mat]

I am not sure how much increase in PP you are hoping for at higher levels to be able to afford the super high players.

You would need a massive increase.

This has been suggested many times already. This would only increase prices more and increase the gap between haves and have nots.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

Well, the overriding problem with Whales is they have unlimited access to PP by simply purchasing them. If F2P (at the Perfect level only) had ways of accumulating PP that could at least somewhat compete with Whales, that would be a start.


Perhaps achievements at Perfect level should be higher? It would be a reward for being competitive at the highest level and recognize the obvious difficulty of completing achievements at that level without changing anything the Whales can do.


That's my suggestion. There are probably some things I haven't considered and I'm certainly willing to discuss those things.


What I won't do is stand for being called a "whiner" who HAS to win to have fun. That's bull****.

If the people at the higher level are getting more PP, then it is whales that get it as well which in the end may have the result of driving those higher priced special players even higher which would still keep them out of your reach but within the reach of the whale who can continue to spend to pursue them. I just don't see any solution short of money or special luck on purchasing packs that would allow just everyone to compete for some of those players. Wouldn't inflation of income (PP) result in inflation of prices?

[Mat]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Wouldn't inflation of income (PP) result in inflation of prices?

I would have thought this was a very easy concept to understand.

Apparently not.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Mat

I would have thought this was a very easy concept to understand.

Apparently not.

Yes, I did understand the "easy" concept of inflation. No, I don't necessarily believe that inflation will be rampant from adding in higher Perfect Team League achievements...


In any case, if it did we wouldn't really be any worse off than status quo and could be reverted if it did.



Oh and attempt at snarky answer is duly noted. Only 1 step away from troll status!

[Mat]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

No, I don't necessarily believe that inflation will be rampant from adding in higher Perfect Team League achievements...

I did not say rampant, but it would increase.

Originally Posted by SayHey1

In any case, if it did we wouldn't really be any worse off than status quo and could be reverted if it did.

Not sure if serious. Are you trolling?

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Mat

I did not say rampant, but it would increase.

Ok, so we are in agreement then.

Originally Posted by Mat

Not sure if serious. Are you trolling?

Are you?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'd be happy with a good idea, just haven't seen any in this thread that improves the game and/or makes financial sense for the developers.

So you agree with "don't ever change anything?" What else is there to contribute in this thread then? State it once and leave. You are no longer discussing anything. This thread is made up of at least 1/2 but probably more than that of people calling everyone with an idea stupid.

You just said there hasn't been a single good suggestion. Yep, everyone is stupid but you and people who think like you.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Maddox

Did you miss my last bullet point

• There is no easy solution or answer to this delimma that benefits all players

There is one....and its the solution that the devs apparently are hoping we all select.



Spend money on packs or PP.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

So you agree with "don't ever change anything?" What else is there to contribute in this thread then? State it once and leave. You are no longer discussing anything. This thread is made up of at least 1/2 but probably more than that of people calling everyone with an idea stupid.

You just said there hasn't been a single good suggestion. Yep, everyone is stupid but you and people who think like you.

<sigh> Never called anyone stupid or made a personal attack. But as the saying goes, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Saying there hasn't been a good suggestion (one that I've thought was worth supporting) is lightyears from calling it stupid.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I'd be happy with a good idea, just haven't seen any in this thread that improves the game and/or makes financial sense for the developers.

I agree and so far I have seen zero. The people complaining about competitive balance only have one mind set when it comes down to it. That mindset revolves around if I am not winning it is broken. Everybody should be equal in talent and teams. So their fixes are:

1. Limit spending in some capacity.
2. Let me tank when I rise to a league where I am the one getting the butt whoopins' instead of receiving them.
3. Open all kinds of new special theme leagues with caps of all sorts so I can play how I want.

There are no fixes in this thread. It all boils down to people not liking the spending capacity of others. Every fix listed by people complaining consists of limiting other players.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

There is one....and its the solution that the devs apparently are hoping we all select.



Spend money on packs or PP.

Do not lose sight of the fact that is is a business.