Football Manager vs OOTP! Silly??

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by luckymann

To the OP:

You make some valid points. I agree wholeheartedly the management side of OOTP needs an overhaul, not to make the game harder but to make it more realistic in this regard.

Problem is, you have couched these valid points in such an overbearingly didactic tone implying you know so much more than everyone else - including one of the guys who created the game - that they almost feel incidental. It makes them seem deliberately antagonistic rather than constructive. Which is a shame, because the latter is what I think you were shooting for.

Have a look at your own posts from THIS 2020 thread and note the difference in how you have put forth your arguments.

I also believe there are many on here who do simply push back on any OOTP criticism as if it is a personal attack. I don't think this helps matters any. But each to their own is my overriding philosophy.

FWIW, I believe there should be no OOTP release next year, or if so make it a v23.5 like they apparently did with v6. This would then allow the versions to line up with the calendar year, which the marketing team would like (although, of course, that would then lock you in to this strategy moving forward). In the meantime, I'd love to see the various issues being caused by v23's ultimately positive engine overhaul (including accurate NeL stats) all sorted out for this interim release and then make the AI management improvements the big selling point for 24.

Graphics have been done. Unis etc now up to code. The engine as well, once these issues get fixed. Pretty much the only aspect that hasn't been shown any love of late apart from some fairly inane cosmetic additions is how the AI manages rosters, trading etc, and how the human player is able to interact with those involved in the sim itself - players, coaches, GMs / owners, other clubs and the league commission.

I don't subscribe to the view that this latter element needs to be quite so in-depth as what has been shown in this thread from FM. I think with so many statistical permutations already at play in OOTP, this might end up being a bridge too far. But I certainly feel there is plenty of scope for improvement all the same so that dealing with these other participants is a more organic and fruitful process than at present. It's a big ask, I know, but I really believe it would take OOTP to the next level for wider appreciation as the OP suggests.

Good post. I have said countless times the last several weeks OOTP is still worth the money and it's still an enjoyable experience. My points might be harsh but I did still endorse OOTP.

Maybe it's harsh and overbearing because I don't agree with calling the FM comparisons silly. There is also 3 thoughts that run throughout the forum even from devs.

1. OOTPd staff is micro and FM staff huge
2. Football more popular
3. Si/FM sells more makes more money to make the game better

My original point was SI chooses the popular path even if it goes against die hard football fans. They grow their product. Their decisions through the years grow the product.

"ootpd" is too small. Baseball doesn't have the appeal of football. Ootpb doesn't sell as much. Give ootpd SI money and ootpb would be great.

I don't think they are valid defenses. 1st it's not football vs baseball. FM is mostly premiere league fans in the UK. That is #1 buyers and watchers of the game. 90% of all the content creators are British. Except Zealand.

Ootpb and ootpd is small. But they choose the least popular path they don't choose to make a popular game but a game for hardcore baseball fans. They don't choose the popular path. It's a self imposed restriction. If you want to be as big as SI then start picking the popular path even if it ruffles feathers.

So it's kind of bs too say SI/FM are bigger. Don't give excuses just tell the truth.

Maybe the truth is ootpd don't want to be as big as SI/FM. That they want to cater to hardcore audience and the larger popular crowd. Maybe they want to keep ootp small and not be a huge popular success.

To me that is what the truth sounds like. If it is the truth say it. We all we accept it and move on.

But the constant if we were as big as SI ootpb would be just as good doesn't ring true to my ear. All the money and staff won't change the direction of ootpb catering to the hardcore niche fan and the not popular crowd.

Ootpb/ootpd/OOTP community/white knights/fanboys/forum users/regular people just keep IT REAL.

You don't need to defend the game just be truthful. Wear your hardcore niche appeal like a badge of honor. Just be honest.

Say our game is small and we want it that way. We are a small niche product and we want to stay small.

See the truth I can accept. The if ootpd was as big as SI then the games would be equal doesn't ring truthful for me. Cause they have entirely different philosophy on who to make and sell a game too.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The truly risible aspect of “OOTP has abandoned the base game” is that a lot of the issues we’re seeing this year are because they rebuilt the game engine this year and that broke a lot of things people didn’t expect to be broken. Apparently “we wish they wouldn’t change things so much” is not as fashionable as “OOTPD is gone to the dogs because of <insert popular feature here>” (which was 3D before PT got bigger, and FaceGen before 3D), but this year especially we’re hammering through some bugs caused by a pretty big under the hood change to the base game.

So, the fact that a buggy and transparently untested (look at the issues people found just auto-dimming on default settings) product is supposed to convince someone of the commitment to the traditional game? ArenÂ’t you the same person who offered a similarly Panglossian rational for the delayed release of the game, assuring everyone that it was because of the developer standard of delivering a relatively bug-free initial release? That was two months ago. I suppose that doubling down is the smart play, however- after all, it is not like you can be 200% wrong.

Unquantifiable claims by a developer in a promotional interview notwithstanding, I do not for a second believe that there was a total engine rewrite- that requires disregarding or filtering all recent evidence. That is not to deny that changes very likely were made. The question is, to what end? If the traditional game and Perfect Team both use the same game engine, it seems that there is a natural tension between the goals of that engine. For the traditional game, the aim is ostensibly to come as close as possible (within the margins of playability) to replicating the real-life game. Perfect Team, however, as a model requires that new winning strategies be cycled- players then have to invest more money to find those strategies (card rosters). At its core, PT has as much to do with baseball as a lottery ticket illustrated with a diamond and having scratch-off places at the four base locations. It is not about simulating the genuine article, it just uses baseball as the motif for its rules-based / strategy-optimization mechanic. If the engine perfectly modeled the real game one year, the developers cannot leave it at that. Players will discover the optimum strategies and pursue them- from what I understand, by the end of a PT year competitive players are all basically fielding the same rosters. The developers have to alter the underlying rules (weightings, interactions, etc.) so that players must devote resources to discovering each year (if not more frequently). Comments by PT players (of whom I am not one) indicated that they immediately noted that a strategy substantially different from that which was optimal last year would be ascendant this year.

Whatever the case, no one can argue that whatever changes made were implemented in a manner that reflected a priority on the traditional game experience. Anyway, I have no interest in debating facts on the ground- I trust my perception, and understand that others do the same. The more important issue than interpretations of the past is that raised above- how do the developers plan on dealing with this inherent tension caused by differing demands on a single simulation engine.

[Syd Thrift]

“There wasn’t a rewrite! I can tell because it’s so buggy!!!”

Anyway, if we’re at a point to where we no longer believe what the devs actually say, why are we even conversing? How do you know I’m not a Russian bot?

[OutS|der]

If the company was sold then why is the team so micro still? If the new owners truly support the core game and not PT going forward why hasn’t the team increased? Even more concerning is the lack of advertisement from the new overlords.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

“There wasn’t a rewrite! I can tell because it’s so buggy!!!”

Anyway, if weÂ’re at a point to where we no longer believe what the devs actually say, why are we even conversing? How do you know IÂ’m not a Russian bot?

That was not what I said. Forget the bugs- the notion that there was a complete engine overhaul flies in the face of all recent evidence of developer priority. Now, does the poor execution help mitigate that burden? Of course not. To the contrary, THAT is what is consistent with the general trend. It was you who stated that the bugs were de facto proof of an engine rewrite. I would love to believe that to be the case. I do not, however- and the characterization of such doubts as *risible* is itself absurd.

More generally, you are exactly right- I do not yield my prerogative to observe, think, and judge for myself in deference to the claims of someone selling me a product. Of course, I also do not have a quote from that person as my signature.

Whatever, this is a waste of my time. What DOES interest me is the matter of the conflicting aims for the game engine. I am not suggesting that there is no potential resolution, but I do think that it is a worthwhile question.

[ashantewarrier]

Another heated thread. Does this thread belong in off-topics or some other section such as “OOTP suggestions” ?


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[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by hfield007

a lot of people with opinions in here that would kill a large corps of OOTP users lol. yikes. go make your own baseball game.

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[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Agreed. And sure football is world wide but FM is mostly a UK thing. All of the content creators are British except Zealand.

If you are in the communities the vast majority of users play in England and the premiere league or football English tier system.

If you look at TV viewership the premiere league gets around 3 million while MLB game of the week gets around 2 million. Plus the major market MLB teams get 200k plus viewers on the regional systems for each game.

So I think the overall potential fanbase is a lot closer then we think between MLB and premiere league.

And this is where you are clearly mistaken. Plus, Europe has a looong history of sports management games, every child plays them since the 80's.

Comparing OOTP to FM is, and will always be, silly. It's like comparing MLB the Show's market size to our market size. There is no contest.

Thread moved...

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

And this is where you are clearly mistaken. Plus, Europe has a looong history of sports management games, every child plays them since the 80's.

Comparing OOTP to FM is, and will always be, silly. It's like comparing MLB the Show's market size to our market size. There is no contest.

Thread moved...

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[jimmysthebestcop]

amd gets compared to intel. and intel has enough free money to buy AMD in hard cash. the underdog always gets compared to the market leader.

if you want to play with the big dogs then you have to strive to do what the big dogs do. ootp doesnt strive to play with the dog.

way to kill the thread. it is literally now the most viewed thread in general discussion from non mods ever.

it was a top 15-20 thread in ootp 23 board. i mean way to BURY the thread cause there is a difference of opinion. lmao

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

amd gets compared to intel. and intel has enough free money to buy AMD in hard cash. the underdog always gets compared to the market leader.

if you want to play with the big dogs then you have to strive to do what the big dogs do. ootp doesnt strive to play with the dog.

way to kill the thread. it is literally now the most viewed thread in general discussion from non mods ever.

it was a top 15-20 thread in ootp 23 board. i mean way to BURY the thread cause there is a difference of opinion. lmao

Are you trying to get banned from the boards by poking the bear (Markus)?


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[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

amd gets compared to intel. and intel has enough free money to buy AMD in hard cash. the underdog always gets compared to the market leader.

This is comparing apples to oranges, and you know it. Intel and AMD aim for exactly the same customer base. FM and OOTP do not. Our potential market is a fraction of that of FM, and our different revenues reflects that. Nothing more, nothing less.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

amd gets compared to intel. and intel has enough free money to buy AMD in hard cash. the underdog always gets compared to the market leader.

if you want to play with the big dogs then you have to strive to do what the big dogs do. ootp doesnt strive to play with the dog.

way to kill the thread. it is literally now the most viewed thread in general discussion from non mods ever.

it was a top 15-20 thread in ootp 23 board. i mean way to BURY the thread cause there is a difference of opinion. lmao

AMD is a Billion dollar company....and is competition to Intel....you clearly do not know what you are talking about.

As I said before, you clearly have an axe to grind

So we are still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is and show us in a stream how easy it is to "game" OOTP and win it all so quickly.

[BarneyRubble]

FM is football, OOTP is baseball. I'm beginning to wonder what his (I assume) agenda is.

[PSUColonel]

Why is this thread moved from the main forum?

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by BarneyRubble

FM is football, OOTP is baseball. I'm beginning to wonder what his (I assume) agenda is.

I agree.


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[PSUColonel]

Anyway…I think it’s fair to say OOTP is a replay/prediction simulator of the numbers of baseball, and not really a management simulation. FM is much more of a full-on management simulation.

So while they are similar and DO get grouped together (and probably for good reason) they really aren’t. I also think each company’s directives and goals are likely very different at this point. No biggie.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Why is this thread moved from the main forum?

So less people would see and realize how far behind FM we are and how truly limited OOTP is.

They still use the small team excuse even after selling the company.

[spartacus007]

I honestly don't understand what the argument is. The OOTP developers love Football Manager and its features. They're obviously going to keep trying to do their best to improve OOTP every year.

Telling them to "be more like Football Manager" isn't especially constructive advice, since they're already aware it's the platinum standard in the industry.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

So less people would see and realize how far behind FM we are and how truly limited OOTP is.

They still use the small team excuse even after selling the company.

Or maybe it's because this thread is no longer about OOTP23 and has gone off topic and belongs here......

"We"? So when did you join the OOTP team?