Perfect Game is Very Far from Perfect

[Kris Jardine]

Originally Posted by ignats75

Kris, I was only addressing the complaints about whales. It was not my intention to insult anyone. But repetitious threads on the same topic, (whales this, whales that) is the definition of whining and bitching. And now they're making the case that all of that complaining is the same as making constructive recommendations for changes to make the game better. I appreciate how the OOTP guys are so interactive with the community. I think that's great and part of why this is such a great product.

Last season, I had a Silver team that played .600 ball and finished 40 games behind a team. Complaining about it doesn't do anyone any good. That owner, somehow, whether by wallet or good fortune or skill built a juggernaut and I was just unfortunate enough to get placed in the same league. As I said elsewhere, shrug and "wait 'til next year".

So, if I insulted anyone, mea culpa. But, I'm not sure where I ever said I didn't think that improvements didn't come as a response to the community.

Right, I get that, but the sentiment that you posted seemed to suggest that 'complaining' serves no purpose here. Sure people can take it too far, it can get out of hand, but that doesn't immediately strike the validity of it.

Maybe there is a better way to do something, maybe there isnt, but thats for us as a dev team to discuss, explore and decide based on what we see and hear. We are very capable of filtering true feedback and issues from "yelling at the clouds"

Ultimately, your opinion is your opinion, its valid and has a place here.

[HRBaker]

I just want to add that people all not be thrown into the same bucket.


Although I've posted many times about things I don't like - I've ALSO suggested ways that those issues might be improved. Maybe my ideas won't work, but I've always tried to provide a solution.


I think most here try and suggest an alternative - and most of those ideas probably won't work because we don't understand the underpinnings of the programming - but if enough people don't like a particular issue, then the OOTP folks at least know they need to look for a realistic solution.


That said, the base-issue here seems to be "a level playing field" and I "think" the best way to deal with that (to repeat) is to populate the various levels from day one rather that lean on Promotions to fill the upper levels.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by ignats75

Kris, I was only addressing the complaints about whales. It was not my intention to insult anyone. But repetitious threads on the same topic, (whales this, whales that) is the definition of whining and bitching. And now they're making the case that all of that complaining is the same as making constructive recommendations for changes to make the game better. I appreciate how the OOTP guys are so interactive with the community. I think that's great and part of why this is such a great product.

Last season, I had a Silver team that played .600 ball and finished 40 games behind a team. Complaining about it doesn't do anyone any good. That owner, somehow, whether by wallet or good fortune or skill built a juggernaut and I was just unfortunate enough to get placed in the same league. As I said elsewhere, shrug and "wait 'til next year".

So, if I insulted anyone, mea culpa. But, I'm not sure where I ever said I didn't think that improvements didn't come as a response to the community.

If you can't figure it out, go back and read your responses to me. I never once mentioned whales. I expressed an opinion based on my experience as a gamer in general - games that thin out the niche too much sometimes have to call it quits. That's the whole point I'm trying to make - I don't want for OOTP to call it quits on PT.


You're assuming a lot about people. No, I won't go play Fortnite. I'm a baseball fan and I've been buying this game every iteration since 8. That doesn't make my opinion more right or better than those who only have bought since 13. But I am allowed an opinion without having someone just making assumptions about me because it fits their narrative. So again, if you can't figure out what you could possibly have said that could have been considered harsh or insulting, please go back and read your posts again.


I will leave it at this because Kris already said something. I just really can't stand people that insult others then play the victim card.

[ignats75]

victim card? Nah. I originally responded to repeated complaints over multiple threads all complaining that they are facing an over-powered "store bought" teams in their lower level leagues. Many referred to these whales as ruining their enjoyment because of the unlevel playing field. I just observed, that baseball isn't a level playing field in real life either and was immediately told that this isn't a baseball game. I found that argument ludicrous and it all spiraled from there.

Spamming the same argument over and over is all I really objected to, until that nonsense about this not being a baseball game.

[comedian2019]

I was just looking at owner's records career and the leader is Bkibbe86 with a 1270-188 .871 record. This means he has averaged 141 wins a season. He has 9 playoffs and 8 rings and 79 tournament wins.

In fact... there are 4 teams with winning records above .800 and 11 above .750.

You can't compete against that.. Another one with 257 tournament wins???

[comedian2019]

My biggest complaint is how pitcher ratings work. How can I have a 97 rated pitcher win 14 games and then the league gets promoted and all of a sudden he is a 14 game loser?

Now with the batters, I have figured out what batters work good at different levels.. this was not hard for me.. but the pitchers have me baffled!

[ignats75]

Originally Posted by comedian2019

My biggest complaint is how pitcher ratings work. How can I have a 97 rated pitcher win 14 games and then the league gets promoted and all of a sudden he is a 14 game loser?

Now with the batters, I have figured out what batters work good at different levels.. this was not hard for me.. but the pitchers have me baffled!

First rule of thumb. Pay very little attention to the rating on the front of the card. At lower levels, Stuff and Control are important. The higher you go, the more Movement is important. In every case, look at the individual pitch ratings for a pitcher. The higher you go, the more important multiple effective pitches are for starting pitchers to remain effective.

[ignats75]

Originally Posted by comedian2019

I was just looking at owner's records career and the leader is Bkibbe86 with a 1270-188 .871 record. This means he has averaged 141 wins a season. He has 9 playoffs and 8 rings and 79 tournament wins.

In fact... there are 4 teams with winning records above .800 and 11 above .750.

You can't compete against that.. Another one with 257 tournament wins???

I just looked at the manager's records all time in PT21. There's ALOT more than 4 teams above .800. If you want to see jaw dropping records, there are 3 teams at stone level that debuted with records of 153-9, 152-10 and 151-9!!!!!!!! WOW!

[bailey]

Originally Posted by ignats75

I just looked at the manager's records all time in PT21. There's ALOT more than 4 teams above .800. If you want to see jaw dropping records, there are 3 teams at stone level that debuted with records of 153-9, 152-10 and 151-9!!!!!!!! WOW!

There's money behind those teams. My best was 140 wins in stone with the live mission reward cards. I'm sure 140 wins in stone would be just as upsetting to some, yet no money was required for it. I just completed the live missions for Hamtramck late last week. It was too late to prevent relegation to silver and now I'm stomping silver. In that case, somebody probably thinks I tanked it. My 3rd team has been left alone to languish in stone, but when I complete the live missions there it will rocket out of that league and I will look like just another whale terrorizing the weak teams for the sheer joy of it. The "level playing field" is a MYTH.

[mayday10]

Originally Posted by ignats75

I just looked at the manager's records all time in PT21. There's ALOT more than 4 teams above .800. If you want to see jaw dropping records, there are 3 teams at stone level that debuted with records of 153-9, 152-10 and 151-9!!!!!!!! WOW!

My 3rd team, no money team, is in its 3rd season (entry pool, won Rookie, and now Stone). Playing .838 currently at 31-6. This is based on using many of the tips given here and lessons learned with my initial (Gold) team that I payed some $ into. This 3rd team is going to be better than that team before long.

Dont want to sound like bragging. Its not. Im not nearly as savvy as most. There has been a little pack luck (have pulled a 100 Trout and a 100 Nolan Ryan), but that is seeded from building a (cheap) Iron tourney team and getting as much play as I can in those as well as (smartly) filling out live collections and selling the right rewards from that. I was also able to get quite a bit of PP out of the Entry Pool, entering Monday morning, making my ballpark settings hitter-friendly, and investing in a few sluggers off the bat.

It is entirely possible for a no-money team to have fun AND have success. There are adjustments that I feel should be made to perfect team.... but I know there is no way they are going to make it less appealing to spend real money.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

I feel like talking about "the whales" moves the focus off where it should be. "The whales" and people like me - free riders who enjoy the card-collecting minigame - should be bothered by the same thing, and it's a thing OOTP has thus far shown no interest in dealing with.

It's the people who are the wannabe whales who use shenanigans to spend a lot of time in lower leagues in order to rack up as many PP as possible. That should piss off the whales because it devalues the money they spend on PP. It pisses me off because it's not fun to have teams in your league either deliberately underperforming or suddenly turning it on and winning 90% of their games. (That's distinct from whales, who might dominate your league on their way up, but who aren't going to interact with other people much beyond that.)

There are lots of ways to police that and it'd be incredibly easy to crowdsource appropriate ways to deal with it, but it would take a significant allocation of time and resources on OOTPD's part to find all the permutations of the problem. Right now that doesn't exist. If and when it becomes something they want to deal with, we can start having a conversation about how to detect and stop it from happening.

Until then, everyone is just pissing into the wind. If/when the whales start griping, I suspect they'll take it seriously. Otherwise - get used to it. The game is, and will continue to be, unfair.

[Kris Jardine]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I feel like talking about "the whales" moves the focus off where it should be. "The whales" and people like me - free riders who enjoy the card-collecting minigame - should be bothered by the same thing, and it's a thing OOTP has thus far shown no interest in dealing with.

It's the people who are the wannabe whales who use shenanigans to spend a lot of time in lower leagues in order to rack up as many PP as possible. That should piss off the whales because it devalues the money they spend on PP. It pisses me off because it's not fun to have teams in your league either deliberately underperforming or suddenly turning it on and winning 90% of their games. (That's distinct from whales, who might dominate your league on their way up, but who aren't going to interact with other people much beyond that.)

There are lots of ways to police that and it'd be incredibly easy to crowdsource appropriate ways to deal with it, but it would take a significant allocation of time and resources on OOTPD's part to find all the permutations of the problem. Right now that doesn't exist. If and when it becomes something they want to deal with, we can start having a conversation about how to detect and stop it from happening.

Until then, everyone is just pissing into the wind. If/when the whales start griping, I suspect they'll take it seriously. Otherwise - get used to it. The game is, and will continue to be, unfair.

Our moderation has never been stronger and more stringent than it is right now. People make it seem like tankers are this huge percentage of users when in fact, they are not, and they ones that are, get reported, investigated and dealt with.

So before you go hurling around the "we don't care" sentiment, which is blatantly false, remember you are talking about the <1% of teams trying to find loopholes to succeed, and they will fall into moderation sooner rather than later.

[Tinkerman]

You might hate this idea, Kris, but how about a loose update on reported teams? I mean, as vague as you'd like to make it, but a bit of info to satisfy some curiosity.

[Kris Jardine]

Originally Posted by Tinkerman

You might hate this idea, Kris, but how about a loose update on reported teams? I mean, as vague as you'd like to make it, but a bit of info to satisfy some curiosity.

I can be vague when needed.

We've received roughly 250 reports so far in PT21 across all of the reporting categories. At this time, there are about 10 outstanding that are being actively investigated. A substantial portion of reports are from users displeased with a loaded roster team being in their division/league and reporting it as suspected cheating. (which by the way, we still investigate to ensure there is no wrongdoing)

There has also been actions taken against teams who were not reported, but this is almost exclusively teams funneling cards and/or points flagged on an internal report.

[Tinkerman]

It must be quite tedious investigating the unsubstantiated claims. Maybe someone could post a sticky thread on what actually warrants lodging a complaint?

[Kris Jardine]

Originally Posted by Tinkerman

It must be quite tedious investigating the unsubstantiated claims. Maybe someone could post a sticky thread on what actually warrants lodging a complaint?

Perhaps, the thing is, we don't want to dissuade people from filing reports. I would rather investigate a nuisance report than a team go unreported because the user wasn't sure if it met the criteria.

[JudP]

Originally Posted by JudP

I should start by saying that it can be fun in the Rookie league to start to build your team and make improvements to your teams performance. I expect some irregularity as team and player performance can vary a bit during a season. What you don't expect is to find teams with a number of player ratings of 100 in your rookie league. This is plain UNREALISTIC. Teams dont win 130 games in baseball, and no player has ever had 13 RBI's in a game. What's the point? Why can't OOTP create a league for people that want to but teams versus build them over time. It would make it a much fairer environment. I find the current system just makes you lose interest. If you start with a team of players with 50 to 70 ratings and build them into a team with mostly high 80 ratings and a couple of 90's, you basically still will lose to new teams with lineups and rotations where everybody is 97 to 100. Some of the threads on player ratings and defense are very good and can help moving forward, but if you're working your butt off to build a team instead of buying points you are at a loss. My suggestion is to limit the number of points that can be purchased at each level or to have seperate lagues for people that want to buy points rather then build a team. One thing for sure is this is so NOT like real baseball.

I can see that opinions vary quite a bit on the ability to just buy a great team from the beginning. I've played more now and have brought my team up through quite a few levels even though the player value numbers on my team are less than most teams I play. Someone responded that I needed a strategy... well my strategy of not buying points to buy players appears to be working as I learn more and more about the characteristics of players and team composition. There is no greater feeling than beating up on a team of 90's and 100 value players with a team full of mostly 80's and 70's players. While I will have to bring some value improvements over time, the selection of the right card characteristics matched to the team is getting my quite a ways forward. This part of the game is fascinating.... especially when you see the number of some of the 90's cards that are out there. Quite a few of the 90's pitchers with multiple years of stats are only .500 pitchers at best. I'm sure further experimentation with team chemistry will bring me to some more conclusions.
Have fun all....

[JeffersonJim]

Originally Posted by JudP

I can see that opinions vary quite a bit on the ability to just buy a great team from the beginning. ... There is no greater feeling than beating up on a team of 90's and 100 value players with a team full of mostly 80's and 70's players. ...

I was fortunate enough to make the first Perfect 21 league last week. I had only had 1 perfect card, which was the Live mission Berra. In fact, 30% of my cards were Live SE mission cards (Bagwell still plays). I also had 3 goldies and even a bronzer. It definitely can be done FTP or budget. You just have to make the playoffs and anything can happen (there were a few FTP players in fact). FWIW I was also turned into paste by Wed and now back in Diamond.

[JudP]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Currently, 56% of OOTP's Perfect Team players are in either Rookie or Stone Levels, 29% are in Iron and Bronze, 12% are in Silver or Gold, and 3% are in Diamond.


The concern (or whining as some would claim) is coming from the group of customers that comprise 85% of the player base.


We ARE NOT complaining that we can't compete, or that we don't know how. Hell, the restrictions I put on myself insures I'll probably never get higher than Gold... What we ARE complaining about is it gets pretty damn boring to see uneven playing fields occur weekly. How much better the game would be if everyone was competitive within each level.


I think most of us simply don't want to be forced into playing teams that pit "World Chess Champions" against the "Junior High School Chess Club".


That is, and is exclusively, my disappointment in the PT version of the game.

Well said. I think what some take as whining, others see as making the game more interesting. I wonder how many people stick around to follow Sunday after there team is eliminated. The reason I would say far less is that I noticed bidding on players seems to be way down on Sunday. It seems like the best day to go shopping.

[JudP]

I am finding as I refine my strategy further that I have been able to beat teams of 90 and 100 point cards fairly regularly without buying points to get players, but instead strategically finding the right players. That may only take me so far, but it's fun to sweep a team that must think they appear to tower over you. Im not sure how far this can get me... maybe Silver or Gold level, but I'll continue to work on ways of identifying the players that will perform. Good luck everyone.