Perfect Game is Very Far from Perfect

[JudP]

I should start by saying that it can be fun in the Rookie league to start to build your team and make improvements to your teams performance. I expect some irregularity as team and player performance can vary a bit during a season. What you don't expect is to find teams with a number of player ratings of 100 in your rookie league. This is plain UNREALISTIC. Teams dont win 130 games in baseball, and no player has ever had 13 RBI's in a game. What's the point? Why can't OOTP create a league for people that want to but teams versus build them over time. It would make it a much fairer environment. I find the current system just makes you lose interest. If you start with a team of players with 50 to 70 ratings and build them into a team with mostly high 80 ratings and a couple of 90's, you basically still will lose to new teams with lineups and rotations where everybody is 97 to 100. Some of the threads on player ratings and defense are very good and can help moving forward, but if you're working your butt off to build a team instead of buying points you are at a loss. My suggestion is to limit the number of points that can be purchased at each level or to have seperate lagues for people that want to buy points rather then build a team. One thing for sure is this is so NOT like real baseball.

[bailey]

If you are building your team slowly over time, why do you care if there just happens to be a multi-perfect team in your league this week?

Edit: I missed the part about not real baseball. You should know there are no injuries and a player can play for 100 seasons.

[ROY_Angel_Berroa]

I had this same gripe a couple weeks ago - it does get more evened out as teams who buy Perfect and Diamond cards progress to higher leagues quicker, but I do agree that it is super annoying to have that team in your league.

I'd propose a way for teams to "buy" their way straight to a higher league. So they can immediately move to a Silver League by paying PP and have more equal competition. They can still spend real money to get all those cards, and spend real money to move up leagues, which gives the company more money to keep making this great (and addictive) game.

[bwiese3908]

Originally Posted by ROY_Angel_Berroa

I had this same gripe a couple weeks ago - it does get more evened out as teams who buy Perfect and Diamond cards progress to higher leagues quicker, but I do agree that it is super annoying to have that team in your league.

I'd propose a way for teams to "buy" their way straight to a higher league. So they can immediately move to a Silver League by paying PP and have more equal competition. They can still spend real money to get all those cards, and spend real money to move up leagues, which gives the company more money to keep making this great (and addictive) game.

Do they really want more equal competition? That is the million dollar question... I am sure some do, but would venture to guess most enjoy taking candy from a baby!

[ROY_Angel_Berroa]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Do they really want more equal competition? That is the million dollar question... I am sure some do, but would venture to guess most enjoy taking candy from a baby!

Yep! They clean up on the achievements and get more PP to spend on even more Perfect Cards.

Personally - that's just not very fun for me, but its your money I guess.

[bwiese3908]

Originally Posted by ROY_Angel_Berroa

Yep! They clean up on the achievements and get more PP to spend on even more Perfect Cards.

Personally - that's just not very fun for me, but its your money I guess.

Agree with you on that. Just not in my nature to lose on purpose. I will try the best I can with whatever cards i get, and always will. Works for me, I am not that good, but at least I am having fun and doing my best.


To be honest, and this is certainly up to individual responsibility, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the intentional tankers or "schemers" are addicted to the gambling aspect of opening packs. Got to spin that wheel one more time. To each their own though, everyone has different likes/dislikes. I enjoy the game very much but definitely understand that people need to find their own enjoyment.

P.S. - Just wanted to add that the actual game is pretty fantastic also.. I got back to OOTP last year for PT, but find myself playing the actual game now more than PT. If PT helps fund game improvements I am ALL FOR IT.

[bjsforever]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Agree with you on that. Just not in my nature to lose on purpose. I will try the best I can with whatever cards i get, and always will. Works for me, I am not that good, but at least I am having fun and doing my best.

I started Perfect Team in Rookie League last week as a F2P beginner and I guess I became "that guy". I spent about $30 on PP and lucked into a perfect Barry Bonds peak card, a perfect Mike Trout card, and a diamond Will Smith, along with a handful of golds. Having a couple of those cards will rake in PP from achievements at that level. It's nice to know I'll be climbing the ladder. I am also impatient and hate losing... which is why PT is probably such a cash cow for OOTP.

[rski70]

I just won a Rookie League with 2 perfects and 4 diamonds on the squad and I didn't spend a dime on the game. I got real lucky with pack pulls from tournaments and completed a couple missions quickly. My record was 120-42 in the regular season.

It was my second season in rookie league. The team should have promoted, but the pro/rel numbers were changed from 8 to 4 or something like that and the team didn't quite make the cut the prior year (and then I added the second perfect and two of the diamonds via lucky pack pulls).

Not sure what my point even is, lol. I guess it's that I was trying to do the slow build as well and just got lucky with a few packs and then the promotion/relegation system kept me down in rookie league for an extra season. Limiting the number of points purchased would not have affected my team at all.

[LeiterFanatic]

Im not wild about having gold and diamond rated pitchers getting shelled by silver hitters. I get that guys say "whelp, thats baseball" but its not fun to see your all gold rotation getting hammered game after game by mediocre lineups. I get the odd bad day but to have Craig Kimbrel go 2-9 with a 7.65 era as a closer not one year but two years in a row

[JeffersonJim]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Do they really want more equal competition? That is the million dollar question... I am sure some do, but would venture to guess most enjoy taking candy from a baby!

Put another way, what incentive(s) would a whale, smaller whale, manatee, dolphin or higher food-chain animal have to NOT leave their team in a lower less competitive small fry leagues, assuming it was within the Terms of Service.

(Remaining is a bit rambly)

There are no single silver bullet ideas that can resolve this I think, as it's inherent in these games (Open format CCGs), where you can pay money to gain advantage. It will need many small/medium changes that will add-up to what feels like competitive balance. I think of it as less "bug fixes" and more of a "comprehensive algorithm". Over the past few years since introduced, PT competitiveness has been very important to the Dev Team and the Content Team. It has manifested in the pyramid scheme (still developing), Twitch streams (6-7 days a week with PP giveaways), meaningful live card missions launched at the start, enormous variety of tournaments, are just some ways the entire Team is giving players opportunities to improve their rosters threw cards or PP, no matter the level. Yes you can throw darts at anything, but know they are improving the experience for everyone and don't appear to be stopping.

"Boredom" or "Sportsmanship" might be a kneejerk response as an incentive, but I'm guessing many of these players won't be bored from denying small fry PP, Wins, Awards, or Championships. Building a system (PT teams) that auto-farms video games (gets achievements, awards, championships, game score) into gold (PP) is a key enjoyment folks get from the game. Thankfully the money that goes in, doesn't allow for money to come out like on Ebay or elsewhere. Only game enjoyment and frustrations

At this point, I think about PT mode as just another tournament in the full list of tournaments. Its the grandaddy of Open No Cap tourneys.

As for pie-in-the-sky solutions? Here are my fairly unthought out ideas:

- Weighted Achievement PP payouts based on total card/team/roster cap for the type of achievement. There are problems with this of course. It would have to some combination of factors that would determine a team's weight for example.

- Many more Global/Player strategy items to manage that could sway lower CAP teams more opportunities if nothing else. Not just nebulous "Small Ball" either. If anything, as many options as Offline. There may even be some unique settings for PT managers though none come to mind.

- Make Live cards more useful in PT play generally even in Diamond/Perfect. The higher the level, the most likely a Live card will forever be in the Inactive pile. Every year brand new players have to learn that 90+% of their cards are useless as they move up the ranks, until they almost are non-competitive. The problem is the static nature of historic data versus the flux of live data. But clearly when 99% of cards are non-competitive there is a problem. In that case, PT should just be non-live cards. (This one seems really hard).

- Allow players to be injured. Again I know, this is problematic. It would advantage active players regardless of marine size, to constantly be in tune with their teams, thus even small fry get a bonus. Again problematic.

- Continue to make Packs cheaper and cheaper. The Gold pack move I hope has increased sales in those. I'd want to see the cost of a standard pack to 250-500 PP. Yep that's crazy. But I don't think winning 5 DoD 200PP tourneys should equal 1 pack (lowest tourney payout?). 2 tourney's worth seems right.

Bottom Line: Make in-game PT currency earned easier (more achievements types, more value) probably weighted somehow so a "lesser" team can potentially earn more for similar achievements. At the same time improve the playing value of live cards at upper levels, and make getting cards cheaper (aka drop Standard Packs to 250pp).

tldr: Sorry

[bwiese3908]

Originally Posted by JeffersonJim

Put another way, what incentive(s) would a whale, smaller whale, manatee, dolphin or higher food-chain animal have to NOT leave their team in a lower less competitive small fry leagues, assuming it was within the Terms of Service.

(Remaining is a bit rambly)

There are no single silver bullet ideas that can resolve this I think, as it's inherent in these games (Open format CCGs), where you can pay money to gain advantage. It will need many small/medium changes that will add-up to what feels like competitive balance. I think of it as less "bug fixes" and more of a "comprehensive algorithm". Over the past few years since introduced, PT competitiveness has been very important to the Dev Team and the Content Team. It has manifested in the pyramid scheme (still developing), Twitch streams (6-7 days a week with PP giveaways), meaningful live card missions launched at the start, enormous variety of tournaments, are just some ways the entire Team is giving players opportunities to improve their rosters threw cards or PP, no matter the level. Yes you can throw darts at anything, but know they are improving the experience for everyone and don't appear to be stopping.

"Boredom" or "Sportsmanship" might be a kneejerk response as an incentive, but I'm guessing many of these players won't be bored from denying small fry PP, Wins, Awards, or Championships. Building a system (PT teams) that auto-farms video games (gets achievements, awards, championships, game score) into gold (PP) is a key enjoyment folks get from the game. Thankfully the money that goes in, doesn't allow for money to come out like on Ebay or elsewhere. Only game enjoyment and frustrations

At this point, I think about PT mode as just another tournament in the full list of tournaments. Its the grandaddy of Open No Cap tourneys.

As for pie-in-the-sky solutions? Here are my fairly unthought out ideas:

- Weighted Achievement PP payouts based on total card/team/roster cap for the type of achievement. There are problems with this of course. It would have to some combination of factors that would determine a team's weight for example.

- Many more Global/Player strategy items to manage that could sway lower CAP teams more opportunities if nothing else. Not just nebulous "Small Ball" either. If anything, as many options as Offline. There may even be some unique settings for PT managers though none come to mind.

- Make Live cards more useful in PT play generally even in Diamond/Perfect. The higher the level, the most likely a Live card will forever be in the Inactive pile. Every year brand new players have to learn that 90+% of their cards are useless as they move up the ranks, until they almost are non-competitive. The problem is the static nature of historic data versus the flux of live data. But clearly when 99% of cards are non-competitive there is a problem. In that case, PT should just be non-live cards. (This one seems really hard).

- Allow players to be injured. Again I know, this is problematic. It would advantage active players regardless of marine size, to constantly be in tune with their teams, thus even small fry get a bonus. Again problematic.

- Continue to make Packs cheaper and cheaper. The Gold pack move I hope has increased sales in those. I'd want to see the cost of a standard pack to 250-500 PP. Yep that's crazy. But I don't think winning 5 DoD 200PP tourneys should equal 1 pack (lowest tourney payout?). 2 tourney's worth seems right.

Bottom Line: Make in-game PT currency earned easier (more achievements types, more value) probably weighted somehow so a "lesser" team can potentially earn more for similar achievements. At the same time improve the playing value of live cards at upper levels, and make getting cards cheaper (aka drop Standard Packs to 250pp).

tldr: Sorry

Great post! Agree 100%,

[HRBaker]

You know... I agree with most that the Overall card Rating isn't as accurate as some would wish - but I have to think one solution is to do away with the Promotion/Relegation model and simply weigh teams on their best 25 cards by adding up the OVR rating. Once that is done, assign the level of play for the week based on these ratings.


Teams will add and subtract cards during the week, the 25 top cards will total a different number, and the team will be assigned again for the next week.


You can still have a pyramid. You can still strive to get to Perfect level. You can still do anything you can do now - BUT, a number of problems go away.


1. No reason to tank. Since you are placed based on your best 25 and there is no relegation based on your win-loss record, no reason to lose on purpose.


2. Better teams play better teams ALL the time, and weaker teams never see Whales.


3. You still compete for Championships. You still get awards for winning.


Foe those worried about players hiding cards in the inactive list, I am sure those cards aren't hidden to OOTP. If you inactivate your best 25 cards, you still get assigned as if they are active.


Sure, it changes the game and how we play it, but for the better I think.

[Torgonius]

You could always try a cap for each level of league..
Just like cap tournaments, you control your deployment, but the total OVR is capped:.
Rookie, Stone & Iron - Cap of 1,500 (~59/card)
Bronze - Cap 1,800 (~69/card)
Silver - Cap 2,100 (~79 card)
And so on to Perfect, which has no cap.

If you pull a 100 early on, you can use it, you just need to compensate with some slightly lesser cards. It will also get some variety in the leagues, so Jeff Bagwell doesn't always just edge out Jeff Bagwell and Jeff Bagwell for MVP.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

You know... I agree with most that the Overall card Rating isn't as accurate as some would wish - but I have to think one solution is to do away with the Promotion/Relegation model and simply weigh teams on their best 25 cards by adding up the OVR rating. Once that is done, assign the level of play for the week based on these ratings.


Teams will add and subtract cards during the week, the 25 top cards will total a different number, and the team will be assigned again for the next week.


You can still have a pyramid. You can still strive to get to Perfect level. You can still do anything you can do now - BUT, a number of problems go away.


1. No reason to tank. Since you are placed based on your best 25 and there is no relegation based on your win-loss record, no reason to lose on purpose.


2. Better teams play better teams ALL the time, and weaker teams never see Whales.


3. You still compete for Championships. You still get awards for winning.


Foe those worried about players hiding cards in the inactive list, I am sure those cards aren't hidden to OOTP. If you inactivate your best 25 cards, you still get assigned as if they are active.


Sure, it changes the game and how we play it, but for the better I think.

There is one good reason for scrapping the current system and making each league as evenly matched as possible, whether with these ideas or some other way. That is, some (if not many) would be encouraged to spend real money for a shot and winning this week's championship because it would be obviously doable. And then spend more next week to win that one and so on and on.... Presently, there is just no reason to do that because there seems to always be a few teams in every league that overshadow all the rest, it is impossible to catch them.

[psav13]

Just spitballing here; haven't given this any thought until reading the thread.

Thought 1: We shouldn't lose site of the fact that OOTP is a business, so limiting the purchase of PPs in any way won't fly... and shouldn't.

Thought 2: I think the ladder model is important to retain. Only 1 in 30 teams is going to win a title, so the ladder provides incentive and reward for the near miss teams while acting as a competitive equalizer -- incrementally in the short term and significantly over time.

Thought 3: Maybe follow the MLB model (said no one ever) and institute some form of revenue sharing. Perhaps each week when leagues are formed 15,000 PPs or some magic number appear out of thin air and get assigned to each league. A pretty simple algorithm could compare the top 25 or 40 players in each team's stable (active and inactive) and proportion the revenue sharing PPs accordingly. At 15,000 PPs that's the equivalent of the lesser half of the league each getting a free basic pack. That doesn't turn the Royals into the Yankees over night, but it's an incremental nudge in the right direction, and if you're in this for the 52-week journey, it adds up over time.

Probably 100 things wrong with that idea, but just tossing it out there.

Play on.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by psav13

Just spitballing here; haven't given this any thought until reading the thread.

Thought 1: We shouldn't lose site of the fact that OOTP is a business, so limiting the purchase of PPs in any way won't fly... and shouldn't.

Thought 2: I think the ladder model is important to retain. Only 1 in 30 teams is going to win a title, so the ladder provides incentive and reward for the near miss teams while acting as a competitive equalizer -- incrementally in the short term and significantly over time.

Thought 3: Maybe follow the MLB model (said no one ever) and institute some form of revenue sharing. Perhaps each week when leagues are formed 15,000 PPs or some magic number appear out of thin air and get assigned to each league. A pretty simple algorithm could compare the top 25 or 40 players in each team's stable (active and inactive) and proportion the revenue sharing PPs accordingly. At 15,000 PPs that's the equivalent of the lesser half of the league each getting a free basic pack. That doesn't turn the Royals into the Yankees over night, but it's an incremental nudge in the right direction, and if you're in this for the 52-week journey, it adds up over time.

Probably 100 things wrong with that idea, but just tossing it out there.

Play on.

I love the spirit of your idea. I can't see players spending money on pp to improve their teams being stoked on it though.

[QuantaCondor]

ITT: people suggesting bad ideas that won't happen. I can't take seriously a post in which standard packs are suggested to cost 250-500 PP. Shoot, if you just quicksold everything you pulled, even expensive diamonds and perfects, you'd pull ahead in the long run PP-wise over a pack costing 250PP. And any amount of selling stuff would turn a significant profit if packs were 500 PP, since the line of QS-only value is pretty close.

What these posts always miss is that any change a person suggests will not make it easier for them in a vacuum. Weighted PP achievement figures? Great, I'll just load up on 10 irons. Injuries? Benefits whales who have depth. Making live cards strong at diamond/perfect? Congratulations, now the strongest live perfects are exceptionally expensive, and the whales who rip a ton of packs make even more PP.

Keep in mind that, while Lives aren't strong (except Trout), there is a massive oversupply of strong and cheap SE cards from the live sets that are easy to get. This market is kinder to F2P teams than it's ever been by a long shot. You just gotta put in the work. People here almost certainly haven't done that or they'd be at diamond right now.

But hey, let's make standard packs 250PP because that feels good, right?

EDIT: The truly ridiculous thing is in hearing all these suggestions when live sets exist. Like... there's a ridiculously strong, very well known equalizer out there. It gives massive PP income and competitiveness to F2P teams, and it's not that hard to complete if you just persist and sell set rewards as necessary until you finish. None of these suggestions are remotely necessary in light of that.

[Westheim]

Make standard packs free and everybody gets a selection of five historical perfects per month. Whenever a whale plays against a FTP player, the whale automatically loses, 10-0. All problems solved.

This post contains irony.

[USF]

What about the idea of giving a GM that consecutively finishes the season with a better record than the previous season a gold or historical pack. Is that enough incentive for a GM to try to win as many games as possible while moving up the ladder? Probably doesn't mean much to those in Gold or higher but, it could mean something for those trying to get to Gold. Then, lets say you achieve a better win/loss record from Rookie to Gold in consecutive seasons then you draw from a perfect pack.
More incentive to win as many games as possible and potentially buy a pack or two to make that happen - good for business too!

[JudP]

When you look at the leaguwe and see that only a certain number of teams can move up and some players have already purchased an all star team, then whats the point of working to improve your team? Why is it that a team in its first year in the Rookie league has a team of 100 point players? Why dont we just give everybody a team of 100 point players and forget any strategy.