Hey, is this tanking, shrewd managing, or just plain unethical?

[Spieler]

I am good at reading contracts, LOL. Sorry if I don't agree with understanding a game and getting good at it, for better or worse. And not blaming others for not being able to compete.

That said, y'all would make fine Germans. Source: I live over (t)here.

Gute Nacht.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Spieler

Don't claim to know it all, and I like to think that I can learn something new every day. So if anyone has first-hand experience how a tanker "ruined" their fun or "experience", I am all ears.

I wouldn't be so dramatic as to say it's "ruined" the season for people.

But the NC Dinos in the Rock League I am in tank hard with their pitching staff to be sure to be relegated back to Rookie. They have only 9 tired, abused pitchers on their active roster, all Iron cards. Their reserve roster is chock full of Diamond pitchers.

But they are stacked on the active roster when it comes to offense. They ended up with 6 out of the 9 batters getting the starting nod for the All Star Game, including having the top vote-getter. Their Bagwell card looks like it will probably take the MVP award, and they will probably end up with the BA and HR leaders as well.

So essentially they get to dominate the All Star Game and season awards PP, and they also get rewarded with relegation back down to a league where they can dominate even more than they are now. And in Rookie they will unleash their Diamond pitching staff which is cooling off on the reserve roster, and take all the pitching awards to boot.

Is that "ruination"? Nope, but it still kinda sucks. There are some great rewards for things like winning either the batting or pitching triple crown, but normal, non-tankers aren't going to have a snowball's chance in hell at that if they end up in a league with a team like the Dinos.

And in a mostly even Stone League, the Dinos can tilt the balance of power to their division because all the teams in it are going to rake probably in the low 10s of thousands in extra PP when they batter that pitching staff and run up offensive awards doing it. Forget battering just the pitching staff, in lots of games you can get through them all and then his hitters come out of the pen to really serve up the runs.

Would it ruin a season for someone to make the WS and see their opponent load up in the AH with PP that came from Dino-bashing? Load up with PP that they weren't able to match just because they had no tanker to beat up on? Kind of takes away from feeling like you'll get rewarded for good strategy if a tanker helps a lot more.

[spatrick4]

I do think it’s reasonable for users to ask that the moderators take quick action against a team like this. I reported NC Dinos in game and posted last week, after Syd Thrift reported his other team. It’s frustrating to learn that he’s doing the same tanking this week.

If PP equals dollars that I’m otherwise spending to get ahead in the game, this warrants more than a warning. It also sharply impacts the RP experience of running a baseball team, which drew me to Perfect Team in the first place. And PT is an awesome concept.

Met with Dinos in the series last season. Had to deliver a series win for my 8 year old son and was angry at them for abusing the game, so I spent a bit and rounded out my team just in time. Took the series in 7.

[MaroonAlberich]

Originally Posted by Spieler

I am good at reading contracts, LOL. Sorry if I don't agree with understanding a game and getting good at it, for better or worse. And not blaming others for not being able to compete.

That said, y'all would make fine Germans. Source: I live over (t)here.

Gute Nacht.

Were we Germans, the Bundeswehr would already be in Seattle. They might be able to handle that assignment.

Not sure what you "don't agree with understanding a game and getting good at it" means. You try not to understand what you play? You actively seek to avoid improvement? Seems like a weird sentiment.

Viel Spaß spielen!

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by Spieler

Don't claim to know it all, and I like to think that I can learn something new every day. So if anyone has first-hand experience how a tanker "ruined" their fun or "experience", I am all ears.

Of course it affects people. When a team tanks on purpose, and they get relegated, and the season after they automagically end up with a roster filled with 100s and valuable diamonds in a lower league, it affects everyone in that league (and even more so the poor 4 teams that end up in the same division). It has happened to me easily a dozen times across PT19-21 to have one of those land in my division, probably a lot more that landed in my universe period. It really sucks to be in Bronze and think you've made some adjustments that may make you move up just to see Super Captain Tank driver with his 2000$ team coming out of nowhere to ruin a full week of PT for you because he likes to play yoyo with his lineup.

[One Great Matrix]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

There's a team in the Stone League I'm in that is dead last because their pitching his horrific. A deeper dive reveals that they've got all diamond cards in their lineup with lots and lots more diamond and gold cards on the bench and reserve. However, their pitching staff is all Bronze and below. The best pitchers on their team are Jim Abbott (69) and Geoff Zahn (69 and probably an underperformer due to that low STF). Tanking, you say? But wait! All those guys on their reserve roster are also position players as well. A quick glance suggests that they really are starting the best they have to offer.

So, if they've got diamond-level pitchers who are inactive, that's clearly tanking and they need to get disciplined for that, I think we can all agree. Of course, we can't see their inactives, although I'm sure the admins can. But what if they don't? What if they really and truly are just selling off all of their pitching rated 70 or higher in order to stay in the lower leagues and earn cheap PP? That strikes me as unethical (although tell me why I'm wrong if you disagree) but is it illegal by OOTP rules? Should there be a rule? How do you enforce that?

It's difficult to enforce if others are so opposed to it that maybe...just maybe, they would do the same if they could. So what seems at first unethical quickly becomes shrewd. And that works out fine.

That's a problem with being ethical sometimes. But there are many pay-offs to remaining ethical, too. Perhaps, (I'm not entirely sure right now), it's just that it's more of a roller-coaster ride...higher highs, lower lows. Just because you remain ethical & not as shrewd as your opponents doesn't mean you lose what you had to begin with. And that feels really really good sometimes.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Kris Jardine

I see it was a mistake to try and engage and provide information in this thread.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by spatrick4

I do think it’s reasonable for users to ask that the moderators take quick action against a team like this. I reported NC Dinos in game and posted last week, after Syd Thrift reported his other team. It’s frustrating to learn that he’s doing the same tanking this week.

If PP equals dollars that I’m otherwise spending to get ahead in the game, this warrants more than a warning. It also sharply impacts the RP experience of running a baseball team, which drew me to Perfect Team in the first place. And PT is an awesome concept.

Met with Dinos in the series last season. Had to deliver a series win for my 8 year old son and was angry at them for abusing the game, so I spent a bit and rounded out my team just in time. Took the series in 7.

Well the Dinos didn't change at all, they stayed with the same tanky 9 man, all Iron pitching staff all season long.

Too bad for them they ran in to my team 7 times in September though and I was already out of the race. I matched their pitching staff to put us on a more even playing field and lost 6 out of 7 games to them.

They missed relegation by 2 games, so sad. No Rookie league party for them next week I am afraid.

This is almost more satisfying for me than the Perfect League championships my F2P teams won in PT 20

[justpatrick]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Well the Dinos didn't change at all, they stayed with the same tanky 9 man, all Iron pitching staff all season long.

Too bad for them they ran in to my team 7 times in September though and I was already out of the race. I matched their pitching staff to put us on a more even playing field and lost 6 out of 7 games to them.

They missed relegation by 2 games, so sad. No Rookie league party for them next week I am afraid.

This is almost more satisfying for me than the Perfect League championships my F2P teams won in PT 20

That is brilliant, well done! You have my ever lasting admiration.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Too bad for them they ran in to my team 7 times in September though and I was already out of the race. I matched their pitching staff to put us on a more even playing field and lost 6 out of 7 games to them.

They missed relegation by 2 games, so sad. No Rookie league party for them next week I am afraid.

Well played!

[2tango2]

Originally Posted by eldur00

Of course it affects people. When a team tanks on purpose, and they get relegated, and the season after they automagically end up with a roster filled with 100s and valuable diamonds in a lower league, it affects everyone in that league (and even more so the poor 4 teams that end up in the same division).

There is a team in my Silver that went 129-33 filled with 100's and Diamonds. They won the division by 48 games If I happen to win my WC game today I get to be chewed up and spit out by them as if I had all Iron's in my lineup.

Perfect example of what you mention..

I think league assignment should be based on what cards you own and not record...don't like losing or running with the big dogs? Stay on the porch or sell your Diamonds. Personally I'd be happy staying in Silver or under but that's just me. I don't enjoy every team having 95% of the same players.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by 2tango2

I think league assignment should be based on what cards you own and not record...don't like losing or running with the big dogs? Stay on the porch or sell your Diamonds. Personally I'd be happy staying in Silver or under but that's just me. I don't enjoy every team having 95% of the same players.

This would be best by far (not what cards you own but the strength of ones you have on your roster when the leagues generate Monday morning) combined with giving better rewards for the higher levels, but I'm starting to think it just isn't possible to code the game that way.

One of the problems limiting replay value is that once you are at the highest level you are stuck there with mostly the same team season after season. You can't play with 99% of your collection. Yeah there are tournaments but those are random crapshoots not a full season of real baseball, I want to see what a team of only Marlins or all silvers can do against similar level teams.

[One Great Matrix]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I'm sorry, but this "baloney" makes a mockery of the game.

laugh?
my point being that it's just one GM's tastes.

[Spieler]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Well the Dinos didn't change at all, they stayed with the same tanky 9 man, all Iron pitching staff all season long.

Too bad for them they ran in to my team 7 times in September though and I was already out of the race. I matched their pitching staff to put us on a more even playing field and lost 6 out of 7 games to them.

They missed relegation by 2 games, so sad. No Rookie league party for them next week I am afraid.

This is almost more satisfying for me than the Perfect League championships my F2P teams won in PT 20

So this is OK, or "shrewd". But not tanking, according to the ToS everyone quotes. Maybe I misunderstood something, but seems like the definition of hypocrisy. Either way, Congratulations.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Spieler

So this is OK, or "shrewd". But not tanking, according to the ToS everyone quotes. Maybe I misunderstood something, but seems like the definition of hypocrisy. Either way, Congratulations.

Did they have more talented pitchers on their reserve roster or sitting in the Auction House at inflated prices? I can understand the idea that a GM is trying the tactic of spending all of their money on hitting but there does come a point and a level where having all-Iron cards becomes suspicious.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Spieler

So this is OK, or "shrewd". But not tanking, according to the ToS everyone quotes. Maybe I misunderstood something, but seems like the definition of hypocrisy. Either way, Congratulations.

I was already out of the playoff race at that point, so I really had nothing to lose. I chose to do that specially for the Dinos and it was in late September. My last 4 games of the season were against them, I think the others were somewhere around the 17th or so IIRC.

It didn't get me relegated or help my team in any way.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Did they have more talented pitchers on their reserve roster or sitting in the Auction House at inflated prices? I can understand the idea that a GM is trying the tactic of spending all of their money on hitting but there does come a point and a level where having all-Iron cards becomes suspicious.

I think I just put them on reserve roster, the regulars I mean - this was in late September and I wasn't going to get in to the play-offs that year. I might have AH'ed some of them though, I can't remember 100%. Not for insane prices if I did. It was for a period of maybe 2 weeks at the end of the season either way. I did this with my pitchers only - I matched my rotation to the Dinos. Only 9 pitchers, all Iron.

I saw that the Dinos were on the bubble for relegation and decided to help them avoid it pretty much I got zero benefit to my team, I had no chance to get relegated myself. To me tanking means you're violating the TOS in order to gain an advantage over other teams and this gave me nothing, other than the satisfaction of knowing the Dinos were not headed back to Rookie for the 4th time in their sordid history. If anything I might have lost some PP that I could have picked up from pitching awards.

[spatrick4]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I think I just put them on reserve roster, the regulars I mean - this was in late September and I wasn't going to get in to the play-offs that year. I might have AH'ed some of them though, I can't remember 100%. Not for insane prices if I did. It was for a period of maybe 2 weeks at the end of the season either way. I did this with my pitchers only - I matched my rotation to the Dinos. Only 9 pitchers, all Iron.

I saw that the Dinos were on the bubble for relegation and decided to help them avoid it pretty much I got zero benefit to my team, I had no chance to get relegated myself. To me tanking means you're violating the TOS in order to gain an advantage over other teams and this gave me nothing, other than the satisfaction of knowing the Dinos were not headed back to Rookie for the 4th time in their sordid history. If anything I might have lost some PP that I could have picked up from pitching awards.

This is awesome, nice work. And the dude calling it hypocrisy up above is just wrong (using tanking himself?). After having my own run-in with the Dinos, they got their just desserts. Between us, we've denied them a rookie series title and a relegation.

It really would be great to see some kind of response to the egregious tankers.

[ronhatch]

Just noticed that my secondary team earned 2,000 points in a few hours... looking into it more detail, it was all from three games against a team with five perfect cards in the lineup, a perfect starting pitcher in the rotation... and the rest of the rotation is rated 40 or 41. Rookie league, so maybe not *exactly* tanking, but clearly making no effort to be good yet.

I'm actually kinda tempted to try something similar with my hands-off third team. I'm playing them with the limitation of only logging in once a week during the offseason, and have been upgrading one card at a time to at least diamond with the points I earned that week... but while I refuse to play anything less than the best team I can come up with (except for the temporary effect of defensive training), I'm thinking it may make a lot of sense to work on the hitters first while upgrading.

[rdt24]

Originally Posted by ronhatch

Just noticed that my secondary team earned 2,000 points in a few hours... looking into it more detail, it was all from three games against a team with five perfect cards in the lineup, a perfect starting pitcher in the rotation... and the rest of the rotation is rated 40 or 41. Rookie league, so maybe not *exactly* tanking, but clearly making no effort to be good yet.

I'm actually kinda tempted to try something similar with my hands-off third team. I'm playing them with the limitation of only logging in once a week during the offseason, and have been upgrading one card at a time to at least diamond with the points I earned that week... but while I refuse to play anything less than the best team I can come up with (except for the temporary effect of defensive training), I'm thinking it may make a lot of sense to work on the hitters first while upgrading.

This is tanking IMO - you don't have a roster of 40s/41s without intent. Sounds like the 100 is there to rack up PP while the rest of the team gets trashed.