Tanking?

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I am one of "you people." A bad team is not reported for tanking and you know it. A team that has gold, diamonds, and perfect cards in their reserve rosters with iron and bronze in their active rosters playing the games are being reported. You know the difference just like those of us that report tankers know the difference..

I find it humorous that one person suggested training was wrong and could be considered cheating (losing on purpose) but that person would not fall in the “you people” category. I find it funny that those who have defended training as legal do fall in the “you people” category. So it is funny and odd and yet sad that it is suggested twice that it would be those same defenders of training (referred to you people once) that would report it as cheating. Why the clearly false narrative. Are there not enough windmills to fight?

[Dogberry99]

I find it funny that someone thinks I was afraid I was going to be reported for training someone in a new position. I find it funny that anyone thinks Ed Delahanty and his 46 OF Range and 21 OF Error ratings could actually be expected to play a competent CF, even when fully trained.

[Late Edit: After considering the responses and posting this, I decided to go through with my plan. Ed Delahanty is now my starting CF. Additionally, Paul Blair has been moved to RF, Garry Maddox to LF, Jim Gilliam to SS, Buddy Bell to 2B, and Omar Vizquel to 3B. I can't move my 1B though because Corey Seager has won 14 straight Great Gloves, and I don't want this to be what breaks his streak. Otherwise, George Uhle would be getting much more time in the field...]


Also, for whatever its worth, two things... I have been saying for some time now that we need to get the rules defined better, because people will always try to work as close to allowable extremes as possible, and the current rules are incredibly vague and contradictory. If we think someone won't try to Moneyball the rules in a baseball sim, we've got to reexamine our priors.

Additionally, If I am giving my opponents too many points, I am a problem whether it is the result of tanking or just being bad. I am disrupting the competitive balance and giving those lucky enough to play me a distinct advantage. I am a problem.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

I find it funny that someone thinks I was afraid I was going to be reported for training someone in a new position. I find it funny that anyone thinks Ed Delahanty and his 46 OF Range and 21 OF Error ratings could actually be expected to play a competent CF, even when fully trained.

More windmills. Nobody said you would be afraid, though you said someone would probably report you. And no, nobody thinks Ed Delahanty would play a competent CF. However, as pointed out, you did say that someone would probably report you if you did, something that has been refuted many times as it is a legal thing to do. I say go for it if you want to give it a try. It doesn't break the ToS.

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

I thought about also seeing if the 6 rating that Ed Delahanty starts with in CF could go any higher, but you people would probably report me for it.

You can also use the excellent "expected defensive ratings" formulas provided in this forum to give you an idea (within a couple of points) of how high he would go.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

You can also use the excellent "expected defensive ratings" formulas provided in this forum to give you an idea (within a couple of points) of how high he would go.

Thanks, ol' buddy, ol' pal. Let's see if he can raise from the 6 rating he comes with to the 7 that this formula predicts.

I was putting him in CF when you responded. Sorry for the late edit.

[MistaD72]

Theme teams are okay right?
Let's say I'm running a team of all my best players. I move up to Gold, but land in 70 win limbo. After a few seasons I bore of this, so I decide to switch from my best possible team, to a theme team. Maybe I go 90s Rockies theme, or Live Blue Jay's. Or Orange Contact Bronze theme. I'm not trying to lose, I want to see how well my 90s Rockies can stack up against all these other teams. Would I mind relegating? No, hell I'd welcome it. But I am trying to win. Just with certain limitations. Or are we saying specifically that everyone has to field their best team possible at all times? Specifically telling someone how they have to play is stupid. Especially those putting in extra cash. And rebuilding is part of baseball. As long as it's done within reason, it should be looked past.

[Kushiel]

I think if you want a theme team that you should start before Perfect Level. But if you do I personally am okay with you building your team downward. As long as you replace the players as you sell them with players from your theme and not just dump and slump.

This is written tongue and cheek. But imagine what a really enterprising manager could do. I was at the Ranger's first ever home game and am a long suffering Ranger fan so it is okay for me to roast them here.

1. I decide i want a Perfect Pedro but do not have the cash but I am a patient sort.
2. I announce(or not) that I am making a theme team of Rangers.
3. I spend 10 dollars for Perfect Points and buy irons and a few bronze cards paying attention to get some Rangers,(after all most Rangers' cards are down here)
4. I put all my Yaks hidden on inactive list and replace them from this mess that I just bought.
5. I set my sliders at the worst possible way for this team. I lose and am relegated to Diamond.
6. I lose and am relegated to Gold.
7. I lose and am relegated to Silver.
8. I lose and am relegated to Bronze. After all I have Rangers.
9. I decide these losing Rangers are not for me.
10. I put my 4 time PL Champion Yaks back in and the PP party begins. I can almost smell that $10 Pedro card.

P.S. Hey everybody, I am going to make a Rangers' theme team.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I think if you want a theme team that you should start before Perfect Level. But if you do I personally am okay with you building your team downward. As long as you replace the players as you sell them with players from your theme and not just dump and slump.

This is written tongue and cheek. But imagine what a really enterprising manager could do. I was at the Ranger's first ever home game and am a long suffering Ranger fan so it is okay for me to roast them here.

1. I decide i want a Perfect Pedro but do not have the cash but I am a patient sort.
2. I announce(or not) that I am making a theme team of Rangers.
3. I spend 10 dollars for Perfect Points and buy irons and a few bronze cards paying attention to get some Rangers,(after all most Rangers' cards are down here)
4. I put all my Yaks hidden on inactive list and replace them from this mess that I just bought.
5. I set my sliders at the worst possible way for this team. I lose and am relegated to Diamond.
6. I lose and am relegated to Gold.
7. I lose and am relegated to Silver.
8. I lose and am relegated to Bronze. After all I have Rangers.
9. I decide these losing Rangers are not for me.
10. I put my 4 time PL Champion Yaks back in and the PP party begins. I can almost smell that $10 Pedro card.

P.S. Hey everybody, I am going to make a Rangers' theme team.

Would work like a charm...

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I am one of "you people." A bad team is not reported for tanking and you know it. A team that has gold, diamonds, and perfect cards in their reserve rosters with iron and bronze in their active rosters playing the games are being reported. You know the difference just like those of us that report tankers know the difference..

just speculating here, but I think scenarios like this might be more prevalent (and expected) in v20 with tournaments on the horizon.... I'll use myself as an example:

one of my theme teams will (once again) be a pre-ww2 team with 1944 being the top end of the cutoff... so I'll be scouring the AH for anyone who fits that bill to replace what I picked up in my starter packs....

in v19, any post-1944 player immediately went to the AH to get me more points for team upgrades... in v20, with tournaments, those players might come in handy (I'm not going to restrict the team to it's pre-ww2 theme for tourneys)... so it's quite possible (likely even) that I will have a number of gold/silver players on my reserve roster, while my starting staff has pitchers like Sugar Cain (think he's a 41 rating with terrible stuff/movement/control) in the rotation.

it's not that I'm tanking/sandbagging/trying to lose... it's that those players on the roster fit my theme and the reserves do not (but they could play in a tournament)...

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by stl jason

just speculating here, but I think scenarios like this might be more prevalent (and expected) in v20 with tournaments on the horizon.... I'll use myself as an example:

one of my theme teams will (once again) be a pre-ww2 team with 1944 being the top end of the cutoff... so I'll be scouring the AH for anyone who fits that bill to replace what I picked up in my starter packs....

in v19, any post-1944 player immediately went to the AH to get me more points for team upgrades... in v20, with tournaments, those players might come in handy (I'm not going to restrict the team to it's pre-ww2 theme for tourneys)... so it's quite possible (likely even) that I will have a number of gold/silver players on my reserve roster, while my starting staff has pitchers like Sugar Cain (think he's a 41 rating with terrible stuff/movement/control) in the rotation.

it's not that I'm tanking/sandbagging/trying to lose... it's that those players on the roster fit my theme and the reserves do not (but they could play in a tournament)...

My understanding is that players used in tournaments don't have to be on the active or reserve roster. They can come from the inactive roster as well, I think.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Thalion

My understanding is that players used in tournaments don't have to be on the active or reserve roster. They can come from the inactive roster as well, I think.

I think that they would have to be active. The whole idea of the inactive list is to prevent these cards from being in the database that other users have to download. So I think that they would have to be activated in order to appear in the tournament roster for the other players in the tourney. Key phrase in all of this is "I think".

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I think that they would have to be active. The whole idea of the inactive list is to prevent these cards from being in the database that other users have to download. So I think that they would have to be activated in order to appear in the tournament roster for the other players in the tourney. Key phrase in all of this is "I think".

I guess that makes sense. Probably have to activate them onto the reserve roster for tournaments then. I guess we'll all find out when tournaments roll out.

[HiDesertAce]

Shotsbury owner got his wish. relegated to diamond. not banned (yet). hopefully the launch of 20 is just delaying this. very clear case of tanking. and if he isn't banned then there is something wrong with their system as two owners in that leauge independently reported

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

5. I set my sliders at the worst possible way for this team. I lose and am relegated to Diamond.
6. I lose and am relegated to Gold.
7. I lose and am relegated to Silver.
8. I lose and am relegated to Bronze. After all I have Rangers.

What you are actually saying here is that you do not trust the promotion/relegation system. With the exploitability of it, you are not wrong to do so.

The problem is that some of the ways to exploit the relegation process have been given legal status. There are developer approved ways to lose on purpose that do not violate the TOS. Theme teams (as long as the theme is not too extreme, whatever that means) and strategy manipulation (unconfirmed maybe?) are two legal ways to limit winning potential. This is why we need the boundaries of tanking to be defined more clearly, because, while we all can recognize extreme cases, we do not all share one common definition of what are acceptable ways to lose.

[dkgo]

the way to prevent tanking should be incentivizing people to play in higher levels

as it is, getting promoted causes you to earn fewer points and getting relegated causes you to earn more points. that is a huge flaw

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by dkgo

the way to prevent tanking should be incentivizing people to play in higher levels

as it is, getting promoted causes you to earn fewer points and getting relegated causes you to earn more points. that is a huge flaw

So, everybody gets a trophy.

[dkgo]

what are you talking about?

People want to earn points. They are the currency of perfect team. The way it is currently structured, you earn more of them at the lowest levels. This is completely backwards from every other game out there. You get PUNISHED for achieving what should be the goal of moving up a level since you now earn fewer points.

Good game design aligns incentives. The players should naturally want to do what the designer wants them to do (move up levels). Trying to fight human nature with a myriad of patchwork rules shows lousy planning and a negative experience for all.

I'm not trying to trash the developers, PT has been out less than a year. It isn't going to be perfect (no pun intended). But this is a big red flag for the health of the game

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

So, everybody gets a trophy.

A trophy is way different than PP.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

A trophy is way different than PP.

Same principal when a person is rewarded for losing.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by dkgo

what are you talking about?

People want to earn points. They are the currency of perfect team. The way it is currently structured, you earn more of them at the lowest levels. This is completely backwards from every other game out there. You get PUNISHED for achieving what should be the goal of moving up a level since you now earn fewer points.

Good game design aligns incentives. The players should naturally want to do what the designer wants them to do (move up levels). Trying to fight human nature with a myriad of patchwork rules shows lousy planning and a negative experience for all.

I'm not trying to trash the developers, PT has been out less than a year. It isn't going to be perfect (no pun intended). But this is a big red flag for the health of the game

The goal is to move up by improving your team. The designer does want you to move up levels. But they want you to buy PP to do it. This is a business. Why do you want things given to you?

[Pirates]

I could be wrong here, but:
I believe if you ranked teams based on their best players(per position) value, add all of the values up, and that team's total value determines what rank you are.
I believe this would be fair and tanking would then be meaningless.
Any thoughts?
Thank you.