Fans of OOTP - eductate me...

[Sweed]

With regard to h2h it's pretty much been covered in the previous posts. Yes, it was promised, yes it didn't make it, and yes Markus explained he was sorry but he couldn't get it to work so it wasn't going to happen.

So the horse is dead and the water is under bridge. I think in the "old" close community Markus' explantion would have been enough and things would have went on with the "we'll try to make it work next year". With the game becoming bigger every year that's not going to happen anymore. Hence Markus must now out of neccessity be more careful in what he says.

Some say well just put it out as an idea but don't guarantee it to be in the game and that will make it safe. I don't think that will work anymore either with the size of the community now or when it gets much bigger with the SI merger. An example would be the financial coefficient. Anyone remember if this was a promised feature or a feature Markus said he would "try to add"?
I recall it as something he said sounded like it would work and would "try to add". Others claim like h2h it was promised and not delivered. To tell you the truth I don't know if I'm right or they are. My point is that once it's out there it starts to get a life of it's own and the truth gets lost somewhere along the way.

Now like anyone else I love to get info on what is going on. I like the idea of Markus maybe putting something out every quarter or so to let us know how it's going. Too me though a simple "I'm progressing well" and then a very genreal statement would be enough.

But whatever you do don't let him out of his room. Open the door long enough to throw in a crust of bread and a pack of smokes, 2006 isn't that far away

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I used to post often on the "Wish List and Suggestions Forum"...used to read and look forward to it everyday...I would keep notes as I played the game...what plays were missing from the game, text errors, spelling and grammar errors, bugs....but after V3, V4 and V5 came out without addressing this issue...It suddenly occurred to me (Yeah, I am a slow learner)...I realized that I was pretty much wasting my time because no one 'IN THE KNOW" or "IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY" responded to my postings or the community's posting...rarely did we get a response.

I mentioned earlier, when we have our internal test teams in place and the bulk of coding implementation is done is when you'll see more interaction from those in the know / officials. You simply cannot expect a reply to everything which I apologise for in advance.

in the old days, on our own forums we used to try and reply to everything - with 6000 posts per day we cannot keep up. Therefore the positioning of our forums at least is that it's for fans of the game to use to discuss, and if you get lots of official responses it's a bonus.

Community members often volunteer to do the "grunt work" for Markus...like write play-by-play text...and have offered their creations to create stadiums, schedules and various mods like Catobase (not too sure this was offered free)...and at no cost to OOTPB.

You now have added complications here that the game will hopefully be multi language, as such any text added incurs a delay to get it translated. There are various other legal issues to overcome on fan based mods. However, if it's possible we'll look at it

I don't post much there anymore...and I don't keep notes much anymore...because OOTPB doesn't "seem" to be listening.

I always hear that Markus is busy doing code and doesn't have the time to respond to "every" request on the forums...I would totally agree with that accessment...

Come on, just because Markus doesnt post shouldnt be a reason to give up

But I don't think he is too busy to give us a Progress Report every month or every quarter. No human being is that busy. It wouldn't take him anytime at all to take his "work list of features that will be in, that will work, that he wants in, that might be in, that might work, that won't work and that probably will never be in the game"...you stated in an earlier post in this thread that he has a list...and have an assistant post it.

Regular and truthful communication is very important in every aspect of our lives...especially in the "really important things" like OOTPB.

Well, we dont wish to make his full dev list public and as I've said many times in this thread - you will get your info but you wont get it now, you wont get it all at once. You need to have patience and faith!

[statfreak]

Marc, I think you are missing the mark here. You keep saying you'll get info, be patient, etc...

The thing is... it's BASEBALL SEASON right now!! This is the time to strike. The season is just about two months old and people are still excited about it. Hence they are looking for outlets to channel that excitement. Normally we would have received a new version of OOTP with enough fixes and new features to feed our frenzy. Now we barely get a crumb to chew on and are told by our new overlords to be patient, new information will be released in due time.

I know you have a good business model in place and are used to doing things a certain way. Unfortunately, whether it be Markus spoiling us in the past or cultural differences, we do want it now and all at once. It's been that way for most Americans life and the past 6 or 7 years with OOTP. You can not just change something that is so ingrained.

I'm going to continue to buy every OOTP game within 24 hours of it's release for the foreseeable future. Markus (and SI) would really have to screw the game up to make me ever not want to buy it.

I do have to say reading your posts makes me realize this is NOT a game created by someone that fell in love with baseball anymore. It's a major software product that, while not as big, is rapidly approaching EA status in terms of customer service and community / developer interaction. That's not a good thing for the individual customer, but is a great thing for the company producing the game.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by statfreak

Marc, I think you are missing the mark here. You keep saying you'll get info, be patient, etc...

The thing is... it's BASEBALL SEASON right now!! This is the time to strike. The season is just about two months old and people are still excited about it. Hence they are looking for outlets to channel that excitement. Normally we would have received a new version of OOTP with enough fixes and new features to feed our frenzy. Now we barely get a crumb to chew on and are told by our new overlords to be patient, new information will be released in due time.

I know you have a good business model in place and are used to doing things a certain way. Unfortunately, whether it be Markus spoiling us in the past or cultural differences, we do want it now and all at once. It's been that way for most Americans life and the past 6 or 7 years with OOTP. You can not just change something that is so ingrained.

I'm going to continue to buy every OOTP game within 24 hours of it's release for the foreseeable future. Markus (and SI) would really have to screw the game up to make me ever not want to buy it.

I do have to say reading your posts makes me realize this is a game created by someone that fell in love with baseball anymore. It's a major software product that, while not as big, is rapidly approaching EA status in terms of customer service and community / developer interaction. That's not a good thing for the individual customer, but is a great thing for the company producing the game.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but this game isnt out till next season. I cannot get you info on a game that is 9-12 months away and keep you all happy and guarentee that stuff might make it.

We share Markus passion for OOTP, as someone pointed out already whenever Markus has his head down and is coding he doesnt post much here. Nothings changed, the only thing that has changed is that YOUR game is using our technology and hopefully the end result will be more people playing YOUR game.

So, I'm afriad you are missing the mark! You'll get everything (and more) that you are ever used to.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I'm sorry you feel this way...

So, I'm afriad you are missing the mark! You'll get everything (and more) that you are ever used to.

I've also noticed how contentious and quick you are to defend if you feel you, SI, or the game has been "attacked". I wasn't doing that in my post.

You asked for our opinions / thoughts, and then take offense and seemingly come out swinging with each response.

I know OOTP7 will be the best version yet. At the same time, I just hope it lets me play the way I want to. If it retains is customizability, then the game should be flexible enough for me to continue to play and set up unusual leagues. I am not doubting the game or Markus' ability to deliver a solid, playable game.

The problem seemingly is that I (as well as a couple others that have posted in this thread) increasingly feel like our opinions do not matter. Your rebuttals to the posts here have done little to alleviate that concern.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by statfreak

I've also noticed how contentious and quick you are to defend if you feel you, SI, or the game has been "attacked". I wasn't doing that in my post.

You asked for our opinions / thoughts, and then take offense and seemingly come out swinging with each response.

I know OOTP7 will be the best version yet. At the same time, I just hope it lets me play the way I want to. If it retains is customizability, then the game should be flexible enough for me to continue to play and set up unusual leagues. I am not doubting the game or Markus' ability to deliver a solid, playable game.

The problem seemingly is that I (as well as a couple others that have posted in this thread) increasingly feel like our opinions do not matter. Your rebuttals to the posts here have done little to alleviate that concern.

I'm just honest with all of you and I'll tell it to you straight. it that comes across as defensive then I'm sorry but I want you to all know we are on your side

[statfreak]

Marc, I understand that. I'm on your side here, really I am. I think we all want OOTP (or whatever SI is calling it) to be the best game ever made. For whatever reasons, it's past/current customers seem to feel as if they are getting further from the development of the product. Considering how much the game has grown, I don't know how it could be any other way.

I am greatly looking forward to the OOTP6.5 expansion pack and I have faith Markus will deliver the best baseball sim ever created next year.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I mentioned earlier, when we have our internal test teams in place and the bulk of coding implementation is done is when you'll see more interaction from those in the know / officials. You simply cannot expect a reply to everything which I apologise for in advance.

This is the key to what I see is SI's problem with OOTP7. The problems with OOTP have always been, as regards the engine, related to how baseball works.

There is no doubt in my mind that people like gmo and Josh know more about how about baseball should be modelled than

It is the FORUM that introduced OOTP developments to aging graphs, to the DIPS system, to development curves. I don't mean to blow our own horn here, but this is how the game improved. That is entirely unlike how SI has developed - you have sought help from experts. Well, the baseball experts behind OOTP have always been in the forum.

As a UK baseball fan, I can confidently say that whatever testing team you set up in Britain will not know one iota about the maths and logic that lie behind the game that the users in the US do. The level of baseball scholarship in the UK and Europe is basically at primary school level in comparision with the recieved knowledge in the UK (recent UK baseball books have yet to even tackle such complicated stats as OBP, for example). Baseball and football are not alike - baseball scholarship is so far advanced that it is almost insulting to suggest that it should be professional computer game testers that try out the engine. It should be professional baseball analysists (ie MGL, TangoTiger) who you are passing this game onto,

The best half-way house between professional analysist and the baseball-fan tester has always been the forum, where you have stats teachers talking with social scientists talking with pure numbers hounds talking with subjective fan-scouts. To cut us off from that will create the kind of experience that is further away from baseball.

[dougaiton]

dola,

OOTP doesn't owe us anything, but we don't owe them anything either. I'm more than willing to take my cash to the best product. To be told to have faith in an industry seems pretty silly.

If SI wants to keep us, stuff like 6.5 is the way. Telling us to have 'faith' is not. Why should I continue to show interest in a product that until this version I have always had input into the process? Clay at Puresim is far more willing to listen.

If that sounds like a veiled threat, it is. OOTP has always been a project between the community and Markus.

[thomamon]

I think it may be best to let this topic go for now. What started off as a nice conversation is starting to turn a bit and honestly nobody wants that.

Marc asked for our opinions and we gave him what he wanted and within time we will get what we want. Unfortunately, it's not now. (BTW, I love how you continue to not even notice how 6.5 was mainly released to help keep the OOTP fans calm that 7 was being pushed back, lol)

Just a note Marc, Baseball season ends, at the end of October, so it would be great if you release some info before the season ends.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

It is the FORUM that introduced OOTP developments to aging graphs, to the DIPS system, to development curves. I don't mean to blow our own horn here, but this is how the game improved. That is entirely unlike how SI has developed - you have sought help from experts. Well, the baseball experts behind OOTP have always been in the forum.

Sorry thats just rubbish. The only expert we've ever worked with is ex-soccer player Ray Houghton who works at analysing our 2D match engine

The rest of the game is improved by our FORUM. I gave links to the various forums on the SI community earlier in the thread, I urge you to go back and read the threads there.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

dola,

OOTP doesn't owe us anything, but we don't owe them anything either. I'm more than willing to take my cash to the best product. To be told to have faith in an industry seems pretty silly.

If SI wants to keep us, stuff like 6.5 is the way. Telling us to have 'faith' is not. Why should I continue to show interest in a product that until this version I have always had input into the process? Clay at Puresim is far more willing to listen.

If that sounds like a veiled threat, it is. OOTP has always been a project between the community and Markus.

You've already had input in the process, you will continue to have input in the process. I cant see why you guys dont get what Sports Interactive are all about. We are fan focussed in many many respects.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by thomamon

Just a note Marc, Baseball season ends, at the end of October, so it would be great if you release some info before the season ends.

Yep, we will

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally Posted by sporr

In the end, H2H proved more difficult to implement properly than Markus had initially planned.

So then we got half our money back for v6, or half off for v7, right?

[Treches]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I mentioned earlier, when we have our internal test teams in place and the bulk of coding implementation is done is when you'll see more interaction from those in the know / officials. You simply cannot expect a reply to everything which I apologise for in advance.

See, I don't think anyone expects an answer from Markus to every or even one third the posts. No need to go to extremes. However, he's hardly seen outside the beta these days, thus people like Eugene logically feel no one is paying attention anymore. It doesn't even have to be Markus who pops up here from time to time; you guys are quite a bunch and what you are doing now can certainly be done more often.

As for the test teams, I've never cared in FM's case, 'cause you all are footy fans. Now, my concern here is whether Markus is getting the proper help outside the coding. I mean, is there anyone on the team other than Markus that actually knows the meaning of, say, OBP or are the lot of you discovering the game as we speak?

[thomamon]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Yep, we will

Woo Hoo, a step forward! LOL J/K

On a serious note Marc, I see what you are doing and I think it's great. Here you are asking for our input and opinion and in return we are begging for you info now. Yet, you are sticking to your guns and working the way SI Usually does and not giving info until you are sure you can give us accurate info that won't change. Your making no false promises, your just waiting till you can give us something concrete to go with.

I think something should be said about that.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Sorry thats just rubbish. The only expert we've ever worked with is ex-soccer player Ray Houghton who works at analysing our 2D match engine

The rest of the game is improved by our FORUM. I gave links to the various forums on the SI community earlier in the thread, I urge you to go back and read the threads there.

I'm really sorry, Mark, for such rubbish.

I didn;t realise the 25+ 'researchers' (normally fans/journalists) don't count as experts. Would you consider them to be idiots?

You completely missed my point, and answered in an unprofessional manner. I understand your probably getting a bit fed up of all this, but aren't you supposed to be promoting SI here?

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Treches

As for the test teams, I've never cared in FM's case, 'cause you all are footy fans. Now, my concern here is whether Markus is getting the proper help outside the coding. I mean, is there anyone on the team other than Markus that actually knows the meaning of, say, OBP or are the lot of you discovering the game as we speak?

Theres four on the baseball team currently. Markus, Andreas, Aurelio and Steve.

We'll be employing testers with specific baseball knowledge as well as extending the external test team (ie you guys).

[dougaiton]

...

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

I'm really sorry, Mark, for such rubbish.

I didn;t realise the 25+ 'researchers' (normally fans/journalists) don't count as experts. Would you consider them to be idiots?

You completely missed my point, and answered in an unprofessional manner. I understand your probably getting a bit fed up of all this, but aren't you supposed to be promoting SI here?

As I said, I will give you honest answers - maybe you are not used to hearing someone tell you that what you posted isnt entirely true.

Experts to me are ex-professionals such as Ray. Our researcher team are fans of teams in their country (we do not employ journalists). These guys provide ideas and features (quite often specific to their region) but most feature ideas and suggestions come via our forums which get 6000 posts per day

Anyway, this thread has gone WAYYYYYY of course now. Thanks to everyone who has posted here. This is my last post on this thread. We will no doubt speak soon