Gonegold.com statement of something big?

[MetsRon2002]

Let me clarify what I mean by the position in the batting order helps dictate how the batter will hit.

Placing someone in the 4 slot will not generate more homers unless he is a power hitter, batting leadoff will not generate more steals or hits unless he is a speedy runner or a great hitter. What is will do is if you put a power hitter in the 3,4,5,6 slot, he will generate more power as he will be pitched differently than if the power hitter was in the 8 slot or batting in front of a weak hitter. The 8 hitter does not get good pitches to hit as the pitcher is due up next.

As an example, I had Piazza batting 6th or 7th with a weak hitter behind him, he did not always generate good numbers, when I moved him to the 4th slot, he generated better power numbers as he had a better hitter behind him.

This did not always work this way as simming in HH gives different results just as in real life. Then again, it may be my imagination. Anyone else noticed this? And no, Martinez would not steal bases at the top of the order as he has no speed.

Henry – price does not go up using a MLB license as HH 2003 costs the same at OOTP4 without the license.

It is easier to find players in HH 2003 as you can see what they did in various years regarding the minor league players. The info is better in HH that OOTP, but I agree the screens are fine in OOTP4.

As for the unexpected and per season sim, HH offers this as the player will be good one year and slump the next and it takes age and fatigue into consideration like OOTP4. Again, this is not a big factor in OOTP4 favor, though I like it in OOTP4 as it is more varied, sometimes to varied.

Lastly, I like OOTP4 as it has a lot to do, I also HH as not only is a good game to play the action, it sims very well too. If the financial model was in HH along with the coaches, it would be easy for me to pick HH. As it is, I will sim seasons with OOPT4 and play joystick action with HH, which gives very realistic results for the most part this way. Sometime Piazza will blast a homer on a certain pitch when his is hot, and when slumping, will pop the ball up!

Thanks for reading this long post and keep supporting baseball games so that we will enjoy more and more every year.

[Ben E Lou]

[quote]That is why I use the Rolen rosters. What I like about HH is that putting a player in a certain batting order in the lineup produces different results. Such as the 4 hitter hits for better power than if he was in the 8th slot. Try this in HH and you will see that batting orders make a difference.<hr></blockquote>Well, HH is an arcade game mainly, so I've never given it any serious look. However, if this is true and *PROPERLY* implemented, it is a good thing. Batting orders *DO* make a difference, because you're doing different things at different places in the batting order. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

My guess is that Marcus Giles will end up batting 8th for Atlanta this year. This is a kid with a little bit of pop in his bat (9HR in 244 AB last year). Lets say that Cox went even further off of his rocker and decided the first five in his batting order would be Furcal, Andruw, Giles, Sheffield, Chipper. Giles is going to come to the plate often with the speedy Furcal and/or Andruw on base, and Sheffield and Chipper waiting to come up to the plate behind him. In this situation, ol' Marcus is guaranteed to see a *LOT* more fastballs thrown for strikes. It wouldn't be at ALL shocking to see him hit 25-30 home runs and have an inflated batting average in such a scenario. On the flip side, lets look at a more likely scenaro--Javy bats #6, Franco/Surhoff/Helms #7 and Giles #8. When Giles comes to the plate, if there are guys on base they will be little/no threat to steal. Furthermore, the pitcher is coming up next. In this scenario, Giles sees a LOT less pitches to hit and therefore has a lower batting average and home run output. If *THIS* is the effect that High Heat is modeling, then more power to them.

[Simms]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>Henry – price does not go up using a MLB license as HH 2003 costs the same at OOTP4 without the license.</strong><hr></blockquote>

On the surface, I can understand why it's easy to make that correlation, but in reality, I'm not sure there could be a more insignificant fact that you could use to prove this particular argument.

What each company *charges* for their product doesn't matter. What DOES matter is how many copies they sell.

HH is an established franchise that has a very strong following, not to mention the fact that it's available on 3 (if not 4) different gaming platforms. OOTP is still, slowly but surely, working its way into the sports gaming mainstream.

High Heat sells titles in the hundreds of thousands with each version. OOTP probably sells in the tens of thousands, if that. In spite of what the sticker price reads, one company (3DO) is generating a hell of a lot more income than the other one is (Markus). That leaves them with an enormously bigger piece of the profit margin with which to pay for the MLB license.

If High Heat was selling 15-20 thousand copies of their game each year instead of 800,000 or a million copies, I can virtually guarantee you that it would either a) NOT have an MLB license, b) cost $80-100 per copy, or (most likely) c) not exist at all.

[JML]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>Henry – price does not go up using a MLB license as HH 2003 costs the same at OOTP4 without the license.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


I guarantee the price of OOTP would go up with MLBPA involvement. Why would they be involved if they weren't getting paid? More hands involved = more money collected, simple as that. Maybe HH is the same price as OOTP, but that's most likely because 3DO is a huge corporation that makes enough off of Tomb Raider 9 that they can sell HH at 30 bucks to a fan base which, according to previous posts, is declining. If Markus et al. had to pay MLBPA, they would be required to raise the price.

[Hammer755]

Good Post, Simms - You took the words right out of my mouth (and frankly, it hurt a little bit) .

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]</p>

[Simms]

Sorry 'bout that Hammer....can I get you band-aid?

[Henry]

MetsRon2002

Ok, the price-thing has been covered by others - becasue it would most definately go up.

On the issue of batting order, however, IF you are seeing better pitches to hit in the 4th spot with a good batter up next (the way the real world works) it's a result of the fact that HH is a pitch-by-pitch game and has the coding to support figuring that out and reacting to it - just like a real pitcher/catcher team would. On the other hand, I would be very surprised if this really was in there.

In any case, however, OOTP doesn't work that way since it doesn't have the pitch-by-pitch option, there's no place to put coding on what type on pitch to throw based on situation. My guess is that Player Joe batting 4th or 8th given the same situation, has the same chance of getting a hit. The closest thing that might make a difference is the new "clutch" rating - but again, it wouldn't matter where in the order he was batting.

Don't get me wrong - there's things about HH I still like - but if given only one game to play on a regular basis, I get a lot more enjoyment out of OOTP.

[MetsRon2002]

HH is a statistical accurate game that you can play in arcade mode. It is different compared to OOTP4 as you do not have as much owner/gm control in HH, or none really. but you get a great game that play and looks awesome!

With OOTP4, you also get a great game that includes owner/GM functions. Though no graphics or sound. But a game that will hook you as there is so much to do and try. I love it!

but lets not put HH in a bad place, the game is one of the best efforts for total baseball since FPS baseball, even though EA is devoting less and less resources and $$$ to the franchise every year!

[Khaos]

One guy who doesn't quit. Even though he's wrong with some paper thin arguments used as facts, I have to admire his determination.

I don't want any stinking MLBPA license. Stick with Strat or DM if that's what you want. I love the versitility of this game and you'll lose that once you invite the greedy evil vortex known as licensing to the table.

HH is a great arcade playing baseball game that simulates that aspect better than anyone else has. But that's it. It sucks, and I'll say it again sucks as a sim or career playing game. It offers little in control of that apect to help itself.

[Giants44]

I think comparing HH to OOTP is comparing apples to oranges.

When HH first came out I had very high hopes for it since their big selling point in the beginning is our team “really loves baseball”

But the same thing that happens to all computer sports sims games happened to HH, more people who wanted to hit 17 500 ft homeruns every game bought the game for consoles then old time baseball sim “purists” so naturally the game took that turn. Before I discovered OOTP I played out (in manage only mode) over 5 full seasons and found the statistics to be AWFULL. A full 30% of the guys in the league hit below .200. Which of course leads to the “tune” file argument.

Which of course to me is ludicrous, out of the box the statistics should be relatively reasonable. Who would buy a spreadsheet that didn’t add correctly, but rather required you to adjust the “tune” file until it added numbers more to your liking?

Having said all of that I am sure I will still buy HH2003, I just won’t rush down to the store the day it comes out like I have done in the past.

[MetsRon2002]

Khaos ,

Your statements about High Heat baseball are ridiculous!

HH 2003 is a great sim to either let the computer generate the outcome or play your self and have a great career mode that takes age into consideration!

I have heard of Bonds stealing 50 bases in OOTP4 at 39 years old! Get real!!

You can find something to knock about any game, but go check out the High Heat message boards and they are busting out with awesome statements about the game.

OOTP4 is showing to have the best community of players and the board is one of the busiest, but that could be good or bad.

I am enjoying OOTP4 and will always enjoy HH as when I get bored of simming, I can take control of the game in HH, more variety.

I will stay with OOTP4 as I love the owner/gm control!

[Khaos]

I am at the HH boards. It sucks as a sim.

[Shorty]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>-Any baseball sim that uses real rosters. I have simmed about 20 years using HH3 and they have all been a blast! The only thing missing was the financial/GM part in OOTP4.

HH does crash, what game does not. And you can get rosters and other dl's for HH as well. I was just referring to HH includes everything in the box, not OOTP4. And they both cost the same.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you are going to sim 20 years, why do you want to have real players?

HH does crash, what game doesnt? Lets see.. FOF2001, OOTP4, NASCAR 4, Black And White... im just going down my game list now..

[Shorty]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>I have heard of Bonds stealing 50 bases in OOTP4 at 39 years old! Get real!!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

KEEP IN MIND, THIS ISNT THE GAMES FAULT. Rolen put Bonds as a good steal/speed rating most likely.

If a guy has A's in both categories, 50 steals is going to happen.

[MetsRon2002]

50 steals should not happen at 39 years old for a slow player no matter what the ratings. I hope ootp4 TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE AGE FACTOR!

HH does and according to someone on this board it sucks as a sim!

And I like to start off with ml players so that I can take over my team of today and see if I can build a dynasty. Plus, you know more of the players if there stats are entered correctly.

This is getting into the wrong territory. Both HH and OOTP are both excellent games. HH will always sell more due to its ML license and that is what players want. for this reason only, OOTP is a minor league game out of the box and needs add ons to make it major league caliber. But lets not forget there are also addons for HH as well to make it better.

[Khaos]

You're wrong. You equate MLBPA licensing with quality and you sound idiotic doing it. Gee, I bet your polo style shirt is better than mine because it actually has the Polo logo stitched into it, huh?

Yeah HH does the age thing. It lets them go to single A for the year instead of retiring. It has the most inane batting lineup substitution I've ever seen. You know what, forget it. I'll do my bitching about it at the HH board.

[Hammer755]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>50 steals should not happen at 39 years old for a slow player no matter what the ratings. I hope ootp4 TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE AGE FACTOR!

HH does and according to someone on this board it sucks as a sim!

And I like to start off with ml players so that I can take over my team of today and see if I can build a dynasty. Plus, you know more of the players if there stats are entered correctly.

This is getting into the wrong territory. Both HH and OOTP are both excellent games. HH will always sell more due to its ML license and that is what players want. for this reason only, OOTP is a minor league game out of the box and needs add ons to make it major league caliber. But lets not forget there are also addons for HH as well to make it better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OOTP does not take into account age at all, it uses ratings (for Steals/Speed) to determine SB. You could have an 80 yr old steal 50 bases if you gave him A/A SP/ST ratings. In all likelihood, this was just a case where the conversion from the Lahman database assigned an incorrect CURRENT rating based on CAREER statistics.

And I can absolutely guarantee you that the MLB/PA licenses are NOT the reason that HH sells more than OOTP. There are several factors that have already been mentioned - 3DO's marketing budget, multiple platform releases, and probably the most important is that most people prefer Arcade games to Text-sims. I'm not knocking HH at all, in fact I enjoy arcade games for PS2 and will probably buy HH2003, but OOTP is not a minor-league game because of the license situation, especially when a much more dynamic and accurate roster set is available than HH at the touch of your fingertips.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]</p>

[Carplos]

[quote]Originally posted by MetsRon2002:
<strong>50 steals should not happen at 39 years old for a slow player no matter what the ratings. I hope ootp4 TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE AGE FACTOR!

HH does and according to someone on this board it sucks as a sim!

And I like to start off with ml players so that I can take over my team of today and see if I can build a dynasty. Plus, you know more of the players if there stats are entered correctly.

This is getting into the wrong territory. Both HH and OOTP are both excellent games. HH will always sell more due to its ML license and that is what players want. for this reason only, OOTP is a minor league game out of the box and needs add ons to make it major league caliber. But lets not forget there are also addons for HH as well to make it better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Bonds thing is Rolen's fault, he did a great job with the rosters, but everyone makes mistakes, usually guys speed does degenerate as they get older, but you edit them when they're 39 to still have blazing speed. Though, if Henderson got on the right minded team (like the Phillies), he could probably still steal 30-40 bases.

EDIT: Someone correct me if I'm wrong about Rolen assigning the A/B for Bonds, I thought he did it, but I could be wrong.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Carplos ]</p>

[Rpmbucs]

IMO The High Heat series is like a major car maufacturerputting out say a Ford Taurus. Pretty much solid lots of features for most people. OOTP is like an Avanti ( a Studebaker product that was produced in a small scale for a certain type of client) High heat has a large market mainly the baseball fan that wants a graphics game with sim possibilities . OOTP is geared to a more Sophisticated group( in preferences not our background ) I know that some want everything ready to go in 1 package but most HH players use addons to give the game the feel they deem neccesary.With the Lehman database capabilities there is NO game on the market that has as many MLB players, teams or rosters available to them with such easy access.I have yet to find a sports game of any type that had professional rosters that I didnt feel were in need of adjustment so the inclusion of them is just eye candy and ease of play imo for most. Both games are good in there on way but Nothing I have seen can hold a candle to OOTP for career posibility.
This longwinded Rant brought to you by the letter K and the number 8

[spleen1015]

MetsRon2002, Question. Have you ever downloaded any of the add-ons for HH?