Bah

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Henry

This is an interesting question. I don't see how you feel your not allowed to voice a concern. You certainly have done so. But is it wrong for those who don't agree (myself being one) to not be allowed to disagree with you? It's a two way street Bruce, it's supposed to be ok to disagree. Each side has the right, I believe, to express their opinions as well - and yes, even Markus may have an opnion on these issues.

Having said that, I don't think Markus is discounting the .05% group - just trying to manage priorities.

You've been vocal about how business should work, what if Ford had .05% of it's customer wanting a model with the driver's controls on the right side of the car. I would have to believe that would not be their #1 prioroty - even if they had said it's in the plans and they had "promised" it.

I'm just trying to point out that everyone's opnions are imprtant here - including those that disagree - but prioties must be set or else nothing gets done.

Henry my point was that when the minority have a problem, there's a lot more "non importance" put on it, yourself included. Not meant as an insult, but you certainly have a way of sugar coating things with your responses, and when it's something that's only a concern to a few, you tend to do a lot more sugar coating.

Yes, you have a right to post anything you like. Myself, when an issue comes up, big or small, that doesn't affect me, I tend to stay out of the thread and not downplay its importance. The reason I do that is because I believe those people have a right to voice their concerns just like me without someone telling them it's not a big issue.

Right, let's add some more metaphors, Ford Motor Company, the War in Iraq, etc etc. Adding metaphors seems to be the popular answer lately.

I'm out of this thread and out of $$$ to spend on this company. Just like you have the right to voice and express your concerns, I have just expressed mine. I've also made a decision to stop purchasing from this company.

Thank you for your time and support.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I count myself into the 0.5% group, so I obviously did not mean to be disrespectful towards the people who want H2H and are sad/disappointed that it's not in the game yet. But what I really do not understand at all, is to call the game 'incomplete' because of it... heck there are so many new things in OOTP 6, and almost all do work the way I wanted them to work... and the rest (salary report, some rare AI quirks etc.) will be solid soon.

Well I never called the game incomplete Markus, I just asked for a feature that was supposedly going to follow soon after release. I didn't even make mention that it was in the initial release information. I made my feelings about early release without it in the poll, but a huge majority wanted early release, so you go with your bread and butter and I'll stay in the .05% that no longer buys your product.

[Cooker]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

But what I really do not understand at all, is to call the game 'incomplete' because of it... heck there are so many new things in OOTP 6, and almost all do work the way I wanted them to work... and the rest (salary report, some rare AI quirks etc.) will be solid soon.

Markus, I don't understand it, either. OOTP6 isn't perfect. But so what? I've never seen a "perfect" computer game. OOTP6 can never be perfect; neither can SI/OOTP7. The point is, however, OOTP6 is SOO much fun, and SOO much CLOSER to "perfect" than any other sports game of any kind I've ever played. I spend hour after hour playing my solo league, living and dying with my two teams (one AL and one NL) that I control.

Perfection's a lofty goal, and we're glad you keep pressing towards it, Markus, and we appreciate every step forward. But I for one am not discouraged that OOTP hasn't "arrived," because by definition it never will. It can't be "perfect." However, that doesn't mean it isn't very rewarding, because it sure is.

[Henry]

BruceM,

I certainly feel bad you feel so strongly about this issue, but again, you certainly have a right to say it. No product is what everyone wants, whether we're talking about a car, tv, whatever - but that doesn't make accepting a customer that's unhappy any easier.

I do want to make a small point about your comment concerning me sugar-coating everything, however.

Being a day-to-day "voice" so to speak on the board - trying to answer questions, explain things, defend both the company and it's customers can - as you might imagine - be a difficult role. Add to that that I have my own opinions on things, and I become very outspoken on some issues.

Most of the time, I'm expressing my own feelings. Heck, if I didn't believe in this game and what Markus is doing in reference to it, I'd be very wrong to be a moderator. I'm usually going to express support for him and the game - but not for any other reason than I believe in the game and where it's going. At times, I have issues too (like the pitcher's editor not working Markus but I do try and respond to everyone with my opinions of things.

The alternative would be to say nothing. That would be far worse for the game I believe if all your questions and suggestions were not responded to for fear of saying what you didn't want to hear... but responding means offering an opinion - and offering an opinion results in someone who doesn't agree.

Bottom line is Markus has to do what (1) he feels is right for the future of the game and (2) what he can do in the time alloted to him. That will almost always fall short in some people's minds, but hopefully he is fulfilling the wishes of most.

Understanding that we can't have all the right answers all the time is a start on constructive discussions.

[cgh3rd]

Originally Posted by Dan Theman

Claybor, what people are responding to is not so much the content of your message as they are responding to the theme. It's your feelings, and you have the freedom to not be happy with OOTP. It's also your money, and you have the freedom to not purchase any products that you don't want. The extra bonus, living in a free (as in "liberty," not "cheap") country like we do, is that you get to tell us all about them. Bud Selig Bless America.

Anyway, I bought this game because I enjoy sports sims and I'm passionate about baseball. I heard it was great, saw it, figured everybody was right, and came to find that they were.

I've seen metaphors relating this game to everything from building a new home to buying a new car to a world history class. It's not. It's a video game. A $26 (for some of us) video game, and I treat it as such.

$26. Think about that for a minute:
*for $26, you could buy two movie tickets, two medium drinks, and one bucket of popcorn to share. That's a nice evening.
*for $26, you could go out to the bar on Friday night, get druk, tip a waitress who couldn't care less about you, and go home alone. Maybe not as nice of an evening, but perhaps a little more common for me.
*for $26, you could be halfway toward purchasing another video game that's half as fun. I've done that too many times.
*for $26, you could get one good seat and pay for parking at a real baseball game, sans hotdogs. I do that all the time (I'm a vegetarian, by the way).
*for $26, you could pay off my late fees at Blockbuster. They've been sitting there ever since I went to Netflix. By the way - I'd really appreciate it if you did.

What did I do with my $26? I bought a game that even with all of its fault has brought me countless hours of enjoyment. That's a much better value, if you ask me. Of course you didn't, but I'm telling you anyways

I can watch my Netflix movies at home, I can drink while doing it, I don't have to worry about installing a new game only to find that I'd prefer to be playing OOTP, I don't have to risk suicidal depression or psychopathic rage every night that the Indians' bullpen takes to the field, and I don't have to haggle late fees.

Now is this the life, or what?

- Dan

Dan, well said except for the vegetarian part.

[sporr]

Originally Posted by Claybor

I wasnt going to add anymore to this post, but I see a few posts above that completely misinterpret what I said. I am not ranting, I am just tired, I have been playing ootp now for close to 4 years and it seems like I am allways waiting for the next patch to fix this or the next update to improve that, and each time a new can of worms is opened. I would jujst like to see them give me what they offer, which in my opinion they have fallen short on in each and every case.

I thought OOTP was very, very good with the latest OOTP5 patch (5.14b). I also think that OOTP6 is pretty close with the latest patch. Sure there are a few minor issues here and there, but there isn't a game out there that doesn't have a minor issue or two.

Originally Posted by PistolPete

The real thing here really turns out to be don't convert your league to V6, just start over with each new game LOL cause it's really been a mess for some leagues I've been in and I refuse to bring mine over till v6 has the bugs fixed.. which my guess is that will never happen. I'm pretty upset to hear V7 is in the works put some man power and get V6 fixed then get V7 going.
I still like ootp's product but damn can someone beta test this the right way??!!!

Many leagues have converted with little to no problems at all. Pierre has already released a utility to correct the Pro Service Year conversion issue (which can't be fully fixed in-game since this info wasn't tracked in older versions of the game). I can't figure out why some leagues saw a "mess" when they converted, because I haven't seen it other than a few easily correctable issues.

[Cardinal Rule]

How anyone can think this game is unplayable is beyond me. I've played this 'unplayable' game just about every day since it was released in April. And I still haven't played it enough yet.

I guess not everyone lives in the same world I do. People, it is what it is. Accept it or reject it, makes no difference to me. You have a set of choices, so make them. Play the game, stop playing the game. Buy the next version or don't. Take your ball and go home if you want. Bottom line is, each individual decides whether he can trade his money for some value here. That equation is different for each individual, just like the desire for specific enhancements differs for each individual. Some feel H2H is the key to why they want this game, while others are interested in the realism of the PBP, or the statistical accuracy, or the historical replay, or the career management, or the financial aspect, or on and on and on. What do you want out of this? Does it deliver? If not, well, you've already found the forum to ask for specific enhancements, so ask. But you really should understand, you don't always get what you ask for. Getting angry or insulting because you don't get your way is, to be blunt, rather childish. And oh by the way, it doesn't win you any points with anyone - you may get your way but you don't pick up any friends in doing so. It may be trite to say 'you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar', but that is one of the few truths I've found in this life.

So, make your choices, do what you feel you must, know that you alone must live with your choices. I for one am enjoying the ride - like Dan Theman said, isn't this the life?

[cgh3rd]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

How anyone can think this game is unplayable is beyond me. I've played this 'unplayable' game just about every day since it was released in April. And I still haven't played it enough yet.

I guess not everyone lives in the same world I do. People, it is what it is. Accept it or reject it, makes no difference to me. You have a set of choices, so make them. Play the game, stop playing the game. Buy the next version or don't. Take your ball and go home if you want. Bottom line is, each individual decides whether he can trade his money for some value here. That equation is different for each individual, just like the desire for specific enhancements differs for each individual. Some feel H2H is the key to why they want this game, while others are interested in the realism of the PBP, or the statistical accuracy, or the historical replay, or the career management, or the financial aspect, or on and on and on. What do you want out of this? Does it deliver? If not, well, you've already found the forum to ask for specific enhancements, so ask. But you really should understand, you don't always get what you ask for. Getting angry or insulting because you don't get your way is, to be blunt, rather childish. And oh by the way, it doesn't win you any points with anyone - you may get your way but you don't pick up any friends in doing so. It may be trite to say 'you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar', but that is one of the few truths I've found in this life.

So, make your choices, do what you feel you must, know that you alone must live with your choices. I for one am enjoying the ride - like Dan Theman said, isn't this the life?

Spoken like a Cardinal fan...all the negative ones must be Cub fans!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

I for one am enjoying the ride - like Dan Theman said, isn't this the life?

Every minute is magic, and this is the best day ever.

[M's rule]

Malleus, I've never posted a response to any of your words before, but this time I just have to say you've reached new heights (or depths) of wisdom.

Every day I have a chance to mess with this game is a better day for having done so, and the game is a gift that keeps on giving. I waited 80% of my life (so far; percentage declining daily) waiting/looking for a baseball sim that would do a fraction of what OOTP does.

Enjoy what you got, folks.

[Dud_Selig]

I usually avoid threads like this for the simple reason that OOTP6 is my first taste of the OOTP series. Unlike the veterans here, I have no frame of reference by which to compare OOTP6 to previous versions of the game. The only other baseball games that I’ve played before that I can compare to OOTP6 are games that shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath with OOTP (Baseball Mogul 2001, High Heat Baseball 99, 00, 01, Hardball 95, 98, etc).

In terms of “addictability”, I don’t think I’ve been this hooked on a game since Civilization(s) 2 & 3, and those games I played to death over a period of months & even years. I’ve been playing OOTP6 exclusively since April and I’m still not tired of it, which tells me that I’ll probably be playing this game for at least another 6 months before it elicits the first feelings of boredom from me.


Would I be wrong, therefore, in assuming that some of the OOTP veterans, who are still dissatisfied with OOTP6, even with the advent of 6.03, are just suffering from a case of OOTP-burnout? I mean, it’s only natural to feel a little bored by something that’s so familiar. The very thought of playing Civ3 again, for example, gives me a searing headache for some reason, so perhaps someday I’ll even feel the same way about OOTP. But as of right now, at least from this relative newbie’s (rookie’s) perspective, this game is as fresh as the proverbial daisy, and possesses an addictive quality that no other baseball title that I’ve ever played has.

[Skipaway]

I think it got more to do with hype than burnout. People spent the whole year after each release talking about what could be added or improved in the next version, and it's hard not to disappoint some of them.

[gmo]

Good points, Dud. I'm not really speaking from experience, but I've been around for now 3 versions. I think a lot of veterans are irked by some long-time things still not being addressed (fixed, changed, enhanced, etc) at all or adequately. Plus some things in the process like the compared-to-previous-versions late release, H2H seemingly continually being pulled out of reach like the dollar on the string, Markus seeming less in touch on the boards, fears about joining SI, other tangential issues related to SI... I think there's lots of little things and for a lot of people the cumulative effect really gets to them, especially if they feel the release and followup with V6 has been worse than the same process previously. But its all personal perceptions and interpretations.

IMO, it ain't the best thing since sliced bread, but people should not expect it to be either. I really like the game, and I'm content with how it has progressed and is progressing. Id say there have been slipups, sure. But though I don't know Markus, I feel like I can cut him some slack with things like I would with a friend. Everyone is different, but of course I feel that if everyone looked at OOTP the way I did, things would be much mellower. But hey, maybe that would be a bad thing.

EDIT - Skipaway adds another great point. Leading up to release beginning with early reports of features then screenshots, people are breathlessly saying the upcoming version will be perfect, then after release when it turns out to be mortal and not all that was imagined, the disappointment and frustration shows up.

[Dud_Selig]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

I think it got more to do with hype than burnout. People spent the whole year after each release talking about what could be added or improved in the next version, and it's hard not to disappoint some of them.

I understand what you're saying, Skip. I obviously wasn't here for that year in which the possible additions to OOTP6 were discussed, but I have been active in other gaming communities in which the programmers sought the advice/suggestions from their customer base on what additions (or subtractions) to make for their future releases.

Many people who participate in such discussions usually end up disappointed with whatever the programmers eventually develop & release. Some people even feel personally betrayed by the programmers themselves, although I must admit that I've never really understood such an excessive reaction. Then there are those who are happy with whatever the developer comes up with, even when it is clear the final product was below all expectations. Go figure..

Markus seems to have a good overall rapport with his customer base, and seems genuinely interested & receptive to feedback. In the end, as customers/fans, I guess that’s really all we can ask for. The day Markus disappears from sight and is replaced on these boards by one of the SI drones, is the day that the OOTP franchise can be officially proclaimed as dead. Let’s hope that never happens.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Dud_Selig

Would I be wrong, therefore, in assuming that some of the OOTP veterans, who are still dissatisfied with OOTP6, even with the advent of 6.03, are just suffering from a case of OOTP-burnout?

IMO you would be wrong. Most of us veterans are very attached to the game, and we are accordingly very concerned with the game being as good as it can possibly be. There has been a lot of recorded disappointment/disillusionment among the veterans with OOTP6, and this is IMO because we know well from experience that the game isn't what it could be or should be at this point in time.

With SI/OOTP looming on the horizon the future does not look very bright for there being time to get OOTP6 to a fully-featured and fully-debugged state, but there is always hope.

[Dud_Selig]

Originally Posted by gmo

Good points, Dud. I'm not really speaking from experience, but I've been around for now 3 versions. I think a lot of veterans are irked by some long-time things still not being addressed (fixed, changed, enhanced, etc) at all or adequately. Plus some things in the process like the compared-to-previous-versions late release, H2H seemingly continually being pulled out of reach like the dollar on the string, Markus seeming less in touch on the boards, fears about joining SI, other tangential issues related to SI... I think there's lots of little things and for a lot of people the cumulative effect really gets to them, especially if they feel the release and followup with V6 has been worse than the same process previously. But its all personal perceptions and interpretations.

IMO, it ain't the best thing since sliced bread, but people should not expect it to be either. I really like the game, and I'm content with how it has progressed and is progressing. Id say there have been slipups, sure. But though I don't know Markus, I feel like I can cut him some slack with things like I would with a friend. Everyone is different, but of course I feel that if everyone looked at OOTP the way I did, things would be much mellower. But hey, maybe that would be a bad thing.

EDIT - Skipaway adds another great point. Leading up to release beginning with early reports of features then screenshots, people are breathlessly saying the upcoming version will be perfect, then after release when it turns out to be mortal and not all that was imagined, the disappointment and frustration shows up.

Really? To me, Markus seems incredibly active on these boards & hasn't really struck me as a person who's "out of touch" with this community at all. Then again, I wasn't here two or three years ago, so I can't really judge the extent to which he's no longer mind-melding with us as compared to then.

I’ll admit that I’m a little concerned about Markus’ recent nuptials with SI. As customers, we’re no longer the private concern of one man, but rather of a larger entity. That almost invariably means less specialized attention from the developers as they have many other projects & customers to be concerned with. As I told Skip in my last post, the day Markus disappears from these boards (or we’re all forced to move to the SI boards for good) and he’s replaced by some talking head or other from SI is the day OOTP might be kaput, at least in it’s current guise. I hope that won’t be the case, but it still and should be a source of concern for us all.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Dud_Selig

As I told Skip in my last post, the day Markus disappears from these boards (or we’re all forced to move to the SI boards for good) and he’s replaced by some talking head or other from SI is the day OOTP might be kaput

I would have used "todt" instead of "kaput" and would have replaced "might be" with "is," but you have summed the situation up rather well. That day may well indeed be coming.

Over the years I've watched a lot of good computer baseball simulations die. Most of them were killed by ignorant management decisions, where stupid shirts with no technical knowledge and no experience in the field made incredibly wrongheaded decisions.

But at least one was killed by its own designer when he made some very foolish and very bad decisions. And that could happen again one day.

[Dud_Selig]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

IMO you would be wrong. Most of us veterans are very attached to the game, and we are accordingly very concerned with the game being as good as it can possibly be. There has been a lot of recorded disappointment/disillusionment among the veterans with OOTP6, and this is IMO because we know well from experience that the game isn't what it could be or should be at this point in time.

With SI/OOTP looming on the horizon the future does not look very bright for there being time to get OOTP6 to a fully-featured and fully-debugged state, but there is always hope.

Well, you've been in the trenches here a lot longer than I have Mal, so obviously you're in a better situation to assess the overall state of this product's development through the years than I am.

I'd be interested in reading your opinions about the SI merger. You seem pessimistic about OOTP's future, and I'm concerned about it as well. What's your take on all this? Looking into your crystal ball, do you see OOTP turning into a pumpkin as a result of the merger, or will the glass slipper still fit three years from now?

[Dud_Selig]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I would have used "todt" instead of "kaput" and would have replaced "might be" with "is," but you have summed the situation up rather well. That day may well indeed be coming.

Over the years I've watched a lot of good computer baseball simulations die. Most of them were killed by ignorant management decisions, where stupid shirts with no technical knowledge and no experience in the field made incredibly wrongheaded decisions.

But at least one was killed by its own designer when he made some very foolish and very bad decisions. And that could happen again one day.

Todt? Es ist todt? Well, I guess that answers the question I asked you about OOTP's future. Wie schrecklich!

[Skipaway]

No matter what happens from now on, the merger with SI will be blamed.