Is Boxing Dead? (warning some Klitschko spoilers here)

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I'm sorry, but you have it backwards. Boxing without a central regulating body is what's shortsighted and foolish. You don't like the word "union". Fine. Call it a "collective working establishment" or "central governing body". That way your bolde sensibilities need not be offended and we can continue on.

Blah - Blah - Boxers are making more money today than ever before - and that goes for the TCs - The notion that boxing is broken..and can only be fixed by some centeralized / powerful commision / union / Or dumber yet Fed Gov't ......is absurd.

Reality is any such commision / body would only tax (take more money) away from the fighters and raise the cost of the sport on a whole (i.e. we'd all get stuck paying even more).

No, boxing is far from dead - Here in the States the reality is our Nation is so wealthy that the sport of boxing - Which is a hard, brutal, non-glamours for 90% of it sport....isn't a sport lots want to go into at the moment (for understandable reasons / other opportunities).

Like James Toney said...... You play football... You play basketball....You play soccor.....You DON'T play boxing....

If the fighters themselves want to get together and promote their own pension plans....So be it. That is their choice (and it will cost them out fo their own purses). The notion that a third-entity needs to be established is BS.

Again, fighters today from the TCs up through the champions are making more money than ever (outside of the HWs, who made more in the 90s).

Any centralized commisson organization isn't going to do a thing at promoting better fights or guys on their way up - Look at Ring Ratings - They are a joke and becoming just as political - Furthermore they dont' seem to have a clue at guys that are below 135 (outside of them winning an upset fight...then they are ranked)......and The Ring...knows boxing to boot.

[Syd Thrift]

I think it's a slam dunk that, like others have said, there are far, far, far fewer fighters and far, far, far fewer fight venues in the USA than there used to be. Are the top guys paid more after taking inflation into effect? Yes. I don't think the tomato cans make nearly as much a year as they did 50 years ago. There was another widely used term for those guys: ham-and-eggers, implying that they were fighting to make a living. I'd be interested to see how much today's TCs make on a per-fight basis (again, adjusted for inflation) compared to guys of yesteryear and see if it gets anywhere close to making up for the fact that TCs of old could fight 2 or 3 times a month in many, many different venues. I think that international play has compensated, but I also think the heavyweight division for example is less fun to track when it's Wladimir Klitschko vs. Sultan Ibragimov instead of Mike Tyson vs. Evander Holyfield.

BTW, I "played" football throughout high school and in reality you don't play football either. Or you can, but two-hand touch and flag are a world of difference between throwing yourself into another 300 pound guy 80 times a game.

Also... who said anything about the federal government? I agree, having the federal government create a control for boxing is silly because boxing is not a US-only sport.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I think it's a slam dunk that, like others have said, there are far, far, far fewer fighters and far, far, far fewer fight venues in the USA than there used to be. I think that international play has compensated, but I also think the heavyweight division is less fun to track when it's Wladimir Klitschko vs. Sultan Ibragimov instead of Mike Tyson vs. Evander Holyfield.

BTW, I "played" football throughout high school and in reality you don't play football either. Or you can, but two-hand touch and flag are a world of difference between throwing yourself into another 300 pound guy 80 times a game.

I played football throughout HS and College (MAC) Western Michigan (Broncos!). LB. And yes, I am more than very aware....that football is rough and tough, smash you in the mouth sport.....But you do play it.....(or better yet, at least 75% of the people you run up against....are playing it.....and that makes all the difference).

It is not at all the same as boxing or MMA. In terms of the mentality of the sport. Or the opportunites that are there to be more readily seized...

Boxing has been around a very long time...It has progressed and grown all the while being called dead numerous times.......I just dislike the notion that "commission" or such would bring any good to the sport..... They will simply cost the fighters more money (via fees and taxes) and ditto that for the consumers....

Adding artifical costs to the sport of boxing (and/or the process) isn't any type of solution.

We are in full agreement when it comes to the HWs of today - They are awful - Certainly, truly the worst era in my lifetime....and I've been hard pressed to find another so poor in the reading of history...... They are terrible.

[Syd Thrift]

The consumers would continue to pay whatever they were comfortable with paying. I'm not sure how having a regulatory council would make our entire system of capitalism go belly-up. Boxers would, you are correct, have to pay in, and in return would get the following, I would imagine:

- Something like a pension or at least a 401(k) option
- Health care (maybe not a problem for Floyd Mayweather but definitely a must-have for a tomato can)
- A central way to license agents and promoters and thus keep the really awful con artists out
- The ability to collectively bargain with media outlets and other sources of revenue. None of the free or basic cable stations are going to enter into an agreement with any one boxer, but if they can be guaranteed X number of fights to occur on X dates, that's another matter
- The ability, one would hope at least, to regulate some of the non-ring activities fighters engage in between fights, like illegal doping (the fact that there hasn't been a scandal in boxing has more to do with the fact that there is no way to randomly test a boxer who isn't actually on a fight card than any idea that no boxer takes 'roids, I'm sure) or placing a limitation on how many hours a week a guy can spar.

All of these things may hurt the individual boxer a little but all would be beneficial for the sport as a whole. Boxing is hurt when a story comes out about a former champ or contender who is now barely able to make ends meet. That lowers the prestige of the sport and no amount of benefit fighting can bring that back. An individual boxer cannot by definition collectively bargain. And even though an individual is going to use whatever advantage he can get in order to get a big payday, that doesn't mean that the general public is not turned off by the after-effects of this (namely, the way boxers tend to be hollow shells of the people they were when they were in the ring - Ali and Jake LaMotta for two good examples).

The downside, of course, is the possible corruption. Since I don't think it's materially possible to be more corrupt than boxing is right now, I can't see how a regulating body would make things worse.

Basically, it's a tragedy of the commons situation. Individuals acting in their own unenlightened self-interest do the sport far more harm than a single organization acting partially in its constituency's best interests and partially in the interests of its own pocketbooks.

ETA: I think that even playing linebacker is a different activity altogether compared with playing the offensive line. IMO a big part of why so many boxers and offensive linemen have such awesome personalities (not being sarcastic here; I really mean it when I say that there are more flat-out intelligent boxers on a per capita basis than there are intelligent professionals of any other sport) is that for them the sport is a job, not a lifestyle.

[hamed]

^ Western Michigan, good football. In my last job, our director was a Central Michigan grad. As a WMU alum, is Eastern Michigan your big/hated rival or is it Central or both?

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by mh2365

MMA fighters are just guys who used to fight in bars ... most of them have killed small animals in the past ... or they are taking out their frustration of not being able to rape furry woodland creatures by fighting. Plus they are all addicted to Flintstones Vitamins and Smurf Porn.


^ just trying to live up to Tommy's expectations of guys who don't like the MMA

edit - forgot to say anyone who gets down on the ground and wrestles another guy in spandex is obviously gaye!

* you forgot that most shop at walmart and are fans of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by hamed

I agree 100%!

BTW, anyone read about another MMA guy who's called out Kimbo? I read it somewhere but now can't find the article. I'd never heard of the guy & my brother didn't see the article but wondered who it was?

* bodyguard for some porn guy. He tried out for the Miami Dolphins about a decade ago but didn't make it. I've seen a few of his fights on youtube...he can't fight but is rather scary looking.

[hamed]

Originally Posted by IceTea

* you forgot that most shop at walmart and are fans of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

UNC fans also shop @ Walmart.

I do too but not for my good clothing.

And you're right, Kimbo's a rough looking dude!

[meade95]

Originally Posted by hamed

^ Western Michigan, good football. In my last job, our director was a Central Michigan grad. As a WMU alum, is Eastern Michigan your big/hated rival or is it Central or both?

Central! We hate the Chips!!....But one hell of a party that weekend....(until they started buses in the cops!)..... Still a party weekend...but not like it was back in the 90s -

[Romdawg88]

Originally Posted by hamed

Thanks Calis, I think it was Paul - I've never heard of him before but it looks familiar. I would have recalled Gary because that's my brother's name.

No surprise you haven't heard of Paul Buentello. He's a solid top 20ish Heavyweight and did actually get a shot at the UFC HW title, and was KOed in 20 seconds by Andrei Arlovski, but he hasn't really done anything of note in his career and the biggest name he's beaten is Tank Abbott a couple of years ago.

On-Topic: I'm not seeing where this boxing is dead or dying talk is coming from truthfully. I know it's not as popular as it was in it's heyday but the sport has craved out a solid niche for itself and the sport has made a truckload of money for itself in 2006 and 2007. Plus, like someone else in the thread said Boxing is still very popular in countries outside of the US. The one area I do believe that promoters need to focus on is drawing in the younger crowd.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The consumers would continue to pay whatever they were comfortable with paying. I'm not sure how having a regulatory council would make our entire system of capitalism go belly-up. Boxers would, you are correct, have to pay in, and in return would get the following, I would imagine:

- Something like a pension or at least a 401(k) option
- Health care (maybe not a problem for Floyd Mayweather but definitely a must-have for a tomato can)
- A central way to license agents and promoters and thus keep the really awful con artists out
- The ability to collectively bargain with media outlets and other sources of revenue. None of the free or basic cable stations are going to enter into an agreement with any one boxer, but if they can be guaranteed X number of fights to occur on X dates, that's another matter
- The ability, one would hope at least, to regulate some of the non-ring activities fighters engage in between fights, like illegal doping (the fact that there hasn't been a scandal in boxing has more to do with the fact that there is no way to randomly test a boxer who isn't actually on a fight card than any idea that no boxer takes 'roids, I'm sure) or placing a limitation on how many hours a week a guy can spar.

All of these things may hurt the individual boxer a little but all would be beneficial for the sport as a whole. Boxing is hurt when a story comes out about a former champ or contender who is now barely able to make ends meet. That lowers the prestige of the sport and no amount of benefit fighting can bring that back. An individual boxer cannot by definition collectively bargain. And even though an individual is going to use whatever advantage he can get in order to get a big payday, that doesn't mean that the general public is not turned off by the after-effects of this (namely, the way boxers tend to be hollow shells of the people they were when they were in the ring - Ali and Jake LaMotta for two good examples).

The downside, of course, is the possible corruption. Since I don't think it's materially possible to be more corrupt than boxing is right now, I can't see how a regulating body would make things worse.

Basically, it's a tragedy of the commons situation. Individuals acting in their own unenlightened self-interest do the sport far more harm than a single organization acting partially in its constituency's best interests and partially in the interests of its own pocketbooks.

ETA: I think that even playing linebacker is a different activity altogether compared with playing the offensive line. IMO a big part of why so many boxers and offensive linemen have such awesome personalities (not being sarcastic here; I really mean it when I say that there are more flat-out intelligent boxers on a per capita basis than there are intelligent professionals of any other sport) is that for them the sport is a job, not a lifestyle.

Boxers can already do (and or have access) to virtually everything (or much) of what you listed above - Collective bargaining helps insulate the loser / the slacker....at the costs of the guys busting their as$.

Fighters already can purchase their own insurance - They can group together policies within Gyms -

Such an organization would do virtually nothing with regard to doping and what not - Look at the scandals assoicated with the Olympics, MLB, NFL, etc, etc. (they are all heavliy centeralized).

Every item you listed....As a mandate... Is nothing but costs. It will only make the TCs of boxing have less (out of their pocket) and dependent more on others.....

Reality is most fighters ARE NOT dopping......Just as most players in other sports are not. And for every fighter you list (who made their OWN bad choices and are not wealthy later in life) I can give you a hundreds of other examples of atheletes from different sports in the exact same postion.

People are responsible for their own decisions / choices. It is NOT societies responsibliy to make sure some guy is rich for his entire life (regardless of his poor choices) nor is it the responsiblity of other fighters.....

And the notion that boxing is "so corrupt" is just hogwash. It isn't. Guys everday come from nothing to work themselves up to contenders through their own sweat-equity....... Look at M. Castillo and I. Vasquez......Both penniless when they came to this great country and several years down the road...they are/were world champions.....


Syd - You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one - I see it completley different -

[Mad Bomber]

Originally Posted by meade95

Central! We hate the Chips!!....But one hell of a party that weekend....(until they started buses in the cops!)..... Still a party weekend...but not like it was back in the 90s -

I actally saw Western Michigan play last year in Toronto at the International Bowl against the Cincinnati Bearcats, and it was very competitive contest, as I have always been a fan of U.S college football, and the same can't be said for the NFL.


Greg

[hamed]

Originally Posted by meade95

Central! We hate the Chips!!....But one hell of a party that weekend....(until they started buses in the cops!)..... Still a party weekend...but not like it was back in the 90s -

OK thanks, that's interesting! I'm always interested in hearing about rivalries from other people.

[hamed]

Originally Posted by Romdawg88

No surprise you haven't heard of Paul Buentello. He's a solid top 20ish Heavyweight and did actually get a shot at the UFC HW title, and was KOed in 20 seconds by Andrei Arlovski, but he hasn't really done anything of note in his career and the biggest name he's beaten is Tank Abbott a couple of years ago.

On-Topic: I'm not seeing where this boxing is dead or dying talk is coming from truthfully. I know it's not as popular as it was in it's heyday but the sport has craved out a solid niche for itself and the sport has made a truckload of money for itself in 2006 and 2007. Plus, like someone else in the thread said Boxing is still very popular in countries outside of the US. The one area I do believe that promoters need to focus on is drawing in the younger crowd.

Yeah Rom, I'll check with my brother today to see if he's heard of him. Maybe he's calling Kimbo out so he gets some exposure.

Good points about boxing. I read how big Wlad & his brother are in Germany & Wlad thinks that's because boxing is on free TV in Germany - like it used to be in the US. Sounds like greed to be on HBO & PPV has hurt boxing & eroded the base. I think Tarver was going to fight on ABC last year but got sick so it never came off.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by bigMatt

Gentlemen - considering comments that refer to last night's HW contest - the phrase SPOILER ALERT might have been nice.


Just sayin...

This has to be the longest amount of time that a thread existed before having its title altered.

[aaaaaaaaa]

I'd like it if there were only one world champ ofcourse, meaning possibly less corruption etc., but i wouldn't like it if boxing became a 'league' sport with all fighting all - to me the matchmaking is one of the most fascinating sides of the sport.

[Cap]

Anyone who doesn't realize that the number of real boxing gyms and clubs in North America has diminished incredibly over the last 60 years has their head up their ass. Sure, the top 5% of pro fighters are making crazy money, the promoters and broadcasters even more, thanks to things like PPV. Just like Sinatra and Crosby made more money than the lounge singer in the Zebra Room. No one in his right mind is saying make boxing into a league sport. That would be stupid. But it does need a responsible international body to police it, mediate between fighters and managers and promoters, provide sensible rankings. Unfortunately, because of human nature and the capitalist free market system, that's why we have the WBA, WBC, IBF, yadda yadda yadda. Boxers need a union, made up of other boxers whose brains haven't been scrambled yet, to serve their interests in the same way managers and promoters belong to syndicates to protect their investments. Unfortunately, thanks to fascist anti-union scum in many parts of this continent, it's unlikely that boxers will ever get more than token protection. So most will have to hold down some kind of work besides to make ends meet. That's life and it's unfair. Tell your priest.

Boxing will survive in some crude form as long as people will put down money to watch two guys beat the living bejasus out of each other. Anyone who thinks that boxers are more skillful than they were 60 years ago, don't know sqwat.

Cap

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Cap

Anyone who doesn't realize that the number of real boxing gyms and clubs in North America has diminished incredibly over the last 60 years has their head up their ass. Sure, the top 5% of pro fighters are making crazy money, the promoters and broadcasters even more, thanks to things like PPV. Just like Sinatra and Crosby made more money than the lounge singer in the Zebra Room. No one in his right mind is saying make boxing into a league sport. That would be stupid. But it does need a responsible international body to police it, mediate between fighters and managers and promoters, provide sensible rankings. Unfortunately, because of human nature and the capitalist free market system, that's why we have the WBA, WBC, IBF, yadda yadda yadda. Boxers need a union, made up of other boxers whose brains haven't been scrambled yet, to serve their interests in the same way managers and promoters belong to syndicates to protect their investments. Unfortunately, thanks to fascist anti-union scum in many parts of this continent, it's unlikely that boxers will ever get more than token protection. So most will have to hold down some kind of work besides to make ends meet. That's life and it's unfair. Tell your priest.

Boxing will survive in some crude form as long as people will put down money to watch two guys beat the living bejasus out of each other. Anyone who thinks that boxers are more skillful than they were 60 years ago, don't know sqwat.

Cap

Cap as usual - Completely wrong about virtually everything you said....(outside of there being less boxing-gyms today than 60 years ago....which was never under debate - Nice strawman there).

Reality is TCs today are making more than in days past - Furthermore the crusade (by many) against boxing in general.....and by those within the boxing community that want this and that demands (regulations) enacted.....is part of a general mindset that is very noble in its rhetoric and very ugly in its implications........Many so called "Cuonsumer advocates" or "worker advvocates" typically represent arrogance (and complete ignorance of economics) masquerading as humanitarianism.....

Best regards,

[mh2365]

I'm feeling a little jealous here ... meade broke out the strawman and it wasn't directed at me ... what is this world coming too!!!

[Syd Thrift]

You keep saying that cans make more money than they used to, but as mentioned before, I don't believe you. I want to see a cite.