AI Trade "LOGIC"

[Karl Pagel Blues]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Saying the game is “borderline unplayable” is just hyperbole.

I purchased OOTP23 on May 4th. A month later, I uninstalled it.

Finances, roster management, waiver and trade logic were still disappointingly bad.

Unfortunately, as someone who plays as GM / Manager, saying the game is borderline unplayable reflects precisely how I feel about OOTP at this moment.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Saying the game is “borderline unplayable” is just hyperbole.


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Did you read post 75?
https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...0&postcount=75

Look at the problems I described and that was off the top of my head. And those problems have been in the game since OOTP.18 at least.

I didn't even get into the problems of the GUI or all the inconsistencies between views, screens and various GUI interfaces.

OOTP has too many white knights. Just give the game honest criticism.

I acknowledge the great job OOTP does on the field, projections and terms of stats.

It's just the moment you unfreeze the universe or interact with it as a human you can see all the holes the games have. And they are huge holes.

Trading, free agents, contracts, rule 5, 40 man, GUI, stories, personalities, owner goals, owner budget, anything to do with the owner, anything to with the city or fanbase, the financial model

Saying a game is borderline unplayable also doesn't mean the game can be fun and enjoyable.

The history of video games is loaded with unplayable games that were fun and still had huge followings.

The problem is the vast majority of the user base for OOTP basically just plays OOTP. They aren't gamers. They don't play dozens of games a year.
So they can't see all the problems with the game.

I can remember a game called Dead State. It had a small cult following. Enjoyable and fun but completely broken. I even loved the game. But it was beyond borderline unplayable. Still fun.

Stop white knighting OOTP. Just give the game honest criticism

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Did you read post 75?
https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...0&postcount=75

Look at the problems I described and that was off the top of my head. And those problems have been in the game since OOTP.18 at least.

I didn't even get into the problems of the GUI or all the inconsistencies between views, screens and various GUI interfaces.

OOTP has too many white knights. Just give the game honest criticism.

I acknowledge the great job OOTP does on the field, projections and terms of stats.

It's just the moment you unfreeze the universe or interact with it as a human you can see all the holes the games have. And they are huge holes.

Trading, free agents, contracts, rule 5, 40 man, GUI, stories, personalities, owner goals, owner budget, anything to do with the owner, anything to with the city or fanbase, the financial model

Saying a game is borderline unplayable also doesn't mean the game can be fun and enjoyable.

The history of video games is loaded with unplayable games that were fun and still had huge followings.

The problem is the vast majority of the user base for OOTP basically just plays OOTP. They aren't gamers. They don't play dozens of games a year.
So they can't see all the problems with the game.

I can remember a game called Dead State. It had a small cult following. Enjoyable and fun but completely broken. I even loved the game. But it was beyond borderline unplayable. Still fun.

Stop white knighting OOTP. Just give the game honest criticism

So if the game is “barely unplayable” as you say, then why do you keep purchasing and playing the game? I would request a refund and be done with playing the game and OOTP if I were you.


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[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

So if the game is “barely unplayable” as you say, then why do you keep purchasing and playing the game? I would request a refund and be done with playing the game and OOTP if I were you.


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If they were smart they would...

[jimmysthebestcop]

Basically even borderline unplayable I will get about a month of play time out of the game. So for $40 it is still worth it. I did however skip OOTP 22. But its basically baseball that is winning out. I mean people drop $20 on movies that can be stinkers for like 2 hours of entertainment.

So $40 for dozens and dozens of hours is still worth it as I enjoy it. It's just not a game I can play all year or take a universe decades into. After about 5 years any team a human takes control of will basically become unstoppable. And even switching teams or restarting doesnt add anything new.

OOTP XX I only played PT but personally even though I enjoyed PT that 1 year I had no desire to ever play it again. 21 I was able to play cause I took XX off from campaign mode. Then 22 I didnt purchase at all. I wasnt going to get 23 but i was craving baseball too much.

If any video game can give you 20-40 it is worth the $40 every time. It's just that I also have plenty of $40-60 games that give me 100-300 hours.

[tcblcommish]

People shouldn't get hung up on someone calling a game broken or unplayable because it's an opinion. The game works and does what it is supposed to I would imagine at least most of the time but the game is very easy to manipulate and that really isn't something that should be up for debate. 99% of games are easy to manipulate.

What is unplayable for one isn't for another and can be a great game, doesn't mean they are "white knighting" anything. People just don't always want the same thing from games and may not see the problems the same as others.

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[PSUColonel]

I think maybe we are getting off track here…I don’t think we should be just “bashing” OOTP for its short comings. Are they there? Yes. Does it mean OOTP is terrible? Hardly. I think the idea here is to be a bit of a “group think” and while pointing out flaws is part of that process, so is suggesting how things can be improved. I actually love threads like this because it forces everyone to look in the mirror, decide what they like, what they don’t…but most importantly, do something about it.

[PSUColonel]

I guess this is probably a discussion better for the Beta forums, but I also realize not everyone with an opinion is BETA listed either. So in my humble opinion…it may not lol great to new customers, but it also lights a fire.

[PSUColonel]

I’m an old school supply side guy who understands the bottom line is the driver here…but truly good business people will always recognize how to adapt. Are we at the point where OOTPD has decided we have done our bit for 24 years? I can’t answer that…only Markus & Co can. I think the idea here, is simply to point out what may be possible.



EDIT: we also have to remember they are the studio now, not the publisher.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

People shouldn't get hung up on someone calling a game broken or unplayable because it's an opinion. The game works and does what it is supposed to I would imagine at least most of the time but the game is very easy to manipulate and that really isn't something that should be up for debate. 99% of games are easy to manipulate.

What is unplayable for one isn't for another and can be a great game, doesn't mean they are "white knighting" anything. People just don't always want the same thing from games and may not see the problems the same as others.

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Good points. But I still feel there a large group of forum users rigorously defend OOTP no matter what and aren't very objective.

I have no issues with praising OOTP in areas it excels at. Just like I have no problems criticizing OOTP in areas it is extremely poor in.

The GM, finance, and organization management is where it's extremely poor at. Stats, projections, customization, baseball is where it excels at.

If you play OOTP focusing on running an organization then I certainly think it borders on unplayable. So many things start to crumble once a human does anything organization wise.

And again the problem is OOTOD teases us with organization management but the features are broken or minimum. If they weren't a part of the game. There wouldn't be as many complaints.

But trying to do management type stuff leaves OOTP open to full criticism.

I saw the writing on the wall with XX. The management side just isn't something the devs are committed to or possibly even want for the game.

They want OOTP to be jack of all trades for all baseball fans. Play the game however you want. Some areas for some players it will be excellent and for others pretty much below average.

This is all things devs have posted about. It's why I stopped coming to forum when 21 came out. No need complaining because devs want OOTP in a different direction.

I was hoping with new sale of OOTP something could have changed. Plus missing baseball I jumped back in for 23.

[Cod]

This thread is full of people discussing issues and problems with the AI trade logic, but I haven't seen hardly any potential solutions offered. There are a few trade simulation websites that try to do this as well, but even they fall short. However, BaseballTradeValues offers some great insight to how they value players at the major and minor league levels:

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/...ajor-leaguers/
https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/...inor-leaguers/

Is it perfect? Probably not, but I respect the fact that the site creators are open about how the logic is applied. Would a blog post from an OOTP developer discussing how values are assigned put people at ease? At least then, people who don't like how things work can provide input to increase the value of this part of the product.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Cod

This thread is full of people discussing issues and problems with the AI trade logic, but I haven't seen hardly any potential solutions offered. There are a few trade simulation websites that try to do this as well, but even they fall short. However, BaseballTradeValues offers some great insight to how they value players at the major and minor league levels:

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/...ajor-leaguers/
https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/...inor-leaguers/

Is it perfect? Probably not, but I respect the fact that the site creators are open about how the logic is applied. Would a blog post from an OOTP developer discussing how values are assigned put people at ease? At least then, people who don't like how things work can provide input to increase the value of this part of the product.

It is not even about values of players. Most of the problems stem from the fact the AI offers players they just signed or just traded for. And cant handle the team option aspect. Cause the AI cant handle finances or 40 man.

The trading block is basically broke. It works for players but not ai to ai. They will be trying to rent players to dump contract and other AI teams wont make a deal even if they are asking for any minor league player. Most AI teams will even eat half of the remaining contract which is already at half at trade deadline.

Honestly I dont care if the AI cant handle trade values of players for players. I actually think it does a good job of it when money or contract stuff is not in the equation.

I literally traded for a top rental player who was on trading block. I believe Yankees were selling Chapman. That is what doesnt make sense. They ate half the contract. I immediately shopped him and the Yankees want him back to give me a solid prospect.

See that is that is the stuff that is completely broke. You can also basically sign any player to a 6 year deal. With after 5th year player option and years 5 and 6 team options. You lower the price for the 4 years and jack it up in the last 2 years with huge buyouts.

Not only will every player sign that deal or extension but every team will want to trade for them, Even though it will be something like a 30 million buyout.

I dont want to police myself. I want the game to not allow it. Just like AMA Free Agent. The player can sign the #1 every year just offer 5 million. Immediately promote him to DSL and he will be like top 10 prospect. No matter what trade setting every team will offer MLB ready prospects for a player who is at least 5 years and usually its like 7 years.

This is the type of logic that is broke in the game. Trading players ABC for players XYZ is usually ok if the finances are generally the same. The only problem stems from some of thee weird GM preferences.

I am not even trying to break thing. Some gamers purposely try to break stuff. OOTP would crumble.

Bottom line there are HUGE problems with OOTP. It is just that the fanbase has no idea because they are true Baseball fans, they arent gamers, its an AGE thing, or OOTP is like their only game.

Im in my 40s but Ive been a gamer my entire life. I play between 1 -2 dozen games a year. A mixture of genres ranging from AAA devs to Indy devs.

OOTP is flat out for baseball fans and not gamers. In the hands of a gamer its is in fact borderline unplayable. I dont even understand how we can be arguing over this.

OOTPD wants it this way. They want it for all baseball fans. A jack of all trades. And they obviously with Perfect Team. I am sure PT is what helped to sell OOTP overseas as it can become a fictional fan duel. $$$$$$$$$$

Example the 3d stadium creator has been in OOTP for 3 versions. But it has 0 purpose in terms of game play. It isnt tied in with GM, owner, team or city. So what is the point of it in terms of game play? Absolutely NOTHING. It is just a costume designer. Granted it is free while most dev/pub charge for skins etc.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Another broken aspect of OOTP. Fan loyalty.
You can literally sign all popular players to 1 year deals and immediately trade them away. You will bump up your fan loyalty from nothing to 100%.Works the same way with wavers and trades for rental.

Get all popular players and trade away for nothing except to increase loyalty to max.

22 Marlins my total budget was like 100 million. My estimated budget for 2024 is around 200 million. And I only finished April 2023. Fan loyalty went from like 35 to 95.

And I kind of want to sign Trevor Bauer who still has like 12+ month suspension cause he only wants like 5 million 1 year deal. And he has max popularity.

How about player personalities NEVER EVER UPDATED!!! Look at Byrce Harper. Dude is MVP and face of Philly basically. But OOTP treats him with all of the bad personalities. Cause it is an on/off switch and not a rteal mechanic.

[ashantewarrier]

Notice that the complaints are from those who’ve not been on the boards for that long. Interesting.

I suggest you folks with suggestions/complaints, post them to the bugs forum. Posting them here won’t help your cause and could be counterproductive.


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[AlpineSK]

I've been playing the game since 4 but not quite on the board for as long. I used to hang out at Baseball Sim Central way back when. I don't see many new people here but I see some frustrated long time users.

As for solutions I don't know how to code so I can't tell you what those are. I just hope that devs see this sort of thing and take it into consideration when they make the inevitable "changes under the hood" every year.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Notice that the complaints are from those who’ve not been on the boards for that long. Interesting.




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And that should be scary for OOTP. New blood is what is going to bring in the profits. The old loyalists that purchase every year regardless is budgeted in. They get that money whether they improve the game or not. The new people are the lifeline to the franchise growing and evolving into something bigger.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Notice that the complaints are from those who’ve not been on the boards for that long. Interesting.

I suggest you folks with suggestions/complaints, post them to the bugs forum. Posting them here won’t help your cause and could be counterproductive.


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I think this stuff can be productive but I do agree with PSUColonel that coming in with “this is a problem and I am literally poking my eyeballs out of my face with a rusty fork because of it!!!!” is counterproductive. Specifically, if you want a fix, suggest a specific fix. “Git gud” is not a fix. And I realize that this can be hard because we don’t see what’s under the hood (which is part of why I’d love to see a way to put these calculations out in the open the way Paradox games do) but if you’re just listing issues without any kind of suggestion of how they could be done better, that’s just going to look like venting and nobody is going to take you seriously. Especially if you walk into a thread about trade logic and start moaning about… player personality ratings being immutable. Like, why are you trying to ruin this thread for everyone else?

Ideally too you need to find a way to quantify things. Again, not sure how you do that with trades but with a lot of the strategy related stuff, it’s about posting numbers vs what the numbers should be. That’s going to get dev’s attention and also give them something where they can create a story with use cases that can be fulfilled. There’s no way to write a story like “make the trade AI better”. How does a QA person look at that story, compare it to a feature someone’s just added, and say “yep, we’re done”? Nobody’s going to write an open ended story like that, especially if working on it might actually make the perceived issue worse. I’m not saying you always have to come with a complete thing but I do think you need to think just a little bit like a developer here.

I really don’t think we should stifle discussion. I think some of this stuff just reeks of… dumb and frankly makes it harder for the team to sort out the things that might be decent and actionable from the things that are just old man yells at sky.

[jimmysthebestcop]

You seriously cherry picked 1 comment about personality I made? But ignored the dozens of exploits I listed that been in the game 5+ years?

Sure every game can be manipulated but OOTP is full of countless exploits that are never closed, complained about, reported or fixed.

You shouldn't be able to trade for a player and trade him back to the same team the same day.

Come on! Get real. Defend the parts of the game that are good but be honest about the dozens of parts the game is awful at.

[Syd Thrift]

All that said, and I’m pushing this to a new post, is I do think it’s really, really hard to “fix” trade logic when you don’t really know what’s wrong in the first place. I kind of feel like it needs to be revamped, which, like the engine revamp that happened this year, is bound to make more people unhappy / complain about “nothing new”, but I feel like it needs to be done. Specific things I think that are needed in the new version:

- That EU4 style breakdown of why a given trade won’t work. Maybe you only see this from your assistant’s perspective but if we start with like “-20 we are in Win Now mode and you’re making our starting lineup worse”, at least then we can say “hey, you’re overvaluing current talent” or whatever.

- I think AI should be more proactive. Like, every 6 months, let’s say, the AI reviews their roster, looks at strengths, weaknesses, if they consider themselves a contender, etc., and then develops a game plan, if a generalized one. “Let’s acquire a better second baseman” or “let’s get a better prospect for the infield”. Then once it does that, it checks that box off the list until it’s time to re-review things again. Too often what I see is the AI apparently deciding it’s short on quality catchers in the minors and then drafting 15 of them, I think because it has “draft better catching” as a priority and it just goes hog wild with 21/80 potential players because that’s all that are available (catcher here is just an example).

- During this phase I’d also like to see the AI put together an organizational depth chart and then get a bit more ruthless with AAA and lower players who don’t actually do anything but take up roster space. Like, okay, you have 2 left fielders in the majors and a 3rd guy in AAA - you don’t need a 35 year old backing him up in the minors in case all of the first 3 guys go down. If that happens (and the AI in general is doing this), you’ll surely be able to sign a Justin Upton off the street.

- I’d also love to see GMs have personality traits and a wider variance of preferences of their own. Some guys want to build up their farm and develop everything useful from within, others are cool with plugging holes with free agents. Some guys love walks, some guys like range, some guys want a team that doesn’t make mistakes, and so on. The owner demands might lend some of that but I’d really prefer GMs themselves be more proactive about this and that we can see these tendencies on their “card”.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

You seriously cherry picked 1 comment about personality I made? But ignored the dozens of exploits I listed that been in the game 5+ years?

Sure every game can be manipulated but OOTP is full of countless exploits that are never closed, complained about, reported or fixed.

You shouldn't be able to trade for a player and trade him back to the same team the same day.

Come on! Get real. Defend the parts of the game that are good but be honest about the dozens of parts the game is awful at.

Yes, I did, because it was a really, really dumb comment. It’s not actionable and it’s just griping.