Joe Morgan on OBP

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
I'll see your EQA and raise you some Win Shares.

Jason

heheh-
I have to admit, Im not totally sold on Win Shares- I remember going to a BP pizza feed and having a short discussion on it. I think its an amazing effort and a remarkable attempt- however, some of the assumptions bother me a bit; 52% being first among them.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Yeah, the rating of hitters relative to pitchers is something of an Achilles' heel for the system.

I like the way it incorporates fielding stats, though. I just think pitchers might be valued a little too low and position players a little too high.

Still, that's a pretty minor tweak in the scheme of things. And he does what can be done with the crummy fielding data we have available for the pre-modern era.

[sixfour210]

Well for the record, I simply don't agree with anyone's logic on this board, especially when it comes to "luck" in the game of baseball. And that analyzing numbers has anything to do with knowing your players talents and putting them together to form a great baseball team.

Everyone refuses to see any side but their own in every discussion and not yet have I seen anyone say, "maybe you're right, that makes sense to me". Therefore I think I'll retire from these silly charades for now. Maybe if I see an actual even, two-sided debate going on, then I'll give my say. Until then, continue on with your "I can never be wrong" attitudes.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

No one said that luck made good teams. Once again, you're creating a straw man argument.

The statement was that luck helps to determine which games a team will win and lose, and in a short playoff series, this can be a major factor.

I, for one, am actually sorry we won't get the benefit of your posts, and I'm not being a bit sarcastic. It's interesting to see what sorts of ideas a person can come up with when not constrained by facts and logic.

[holyroller]

One again sixfour, just because we don't agree with you, does not reflect either on you personaly or us personaly. What it does reflect on is your arguments. We don't agree with them, because ours are better, at least in our minds. There is no reason to lash out and call us names or make pseudo-psyhcological arguments for why we don't agree with you, we don't agree with them because we think they are dead wrong.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
One again sixfour, just because we don't agree with you, does not reflect either on you personaly or us personaly. What it does reflect on is your arguments. We don't agree with them, because ours are better, at least in our minds. There is no reason to lash out and call us names or make pseudo-psyhcological arguments for why we don't agree with you, we don't agree with them because we think they are dead wrong.

Well guess what? I think you are dead wrong and so does everyone else in MLB for that matter as well as everyone else that I've talked to outside of this board. This is why I find it amazing that you keep trying to insist that I'm wrong all the time. I mean I'm not the one who can't tell the difference between a chicken and a human.

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Well guess what? I think you are dead wrong

That is perfectly fine.

and so does everyone else in MLB for that matter

That is simply not true. Billy Beane of the A's, J.P. Ricciardi of the Blue Jays, and Theo Epstein of the Red Sox are in full agreement with our arguments.

as well as everyone else that I've talked to outside of this board.

People do tend to associate with those who are like-minded.

This is why I find it amazing that you keep trying to insist that I'm wrong all the time.

You are wrong, in my opinion. You may find it amazing or hard to take that someone dissagrees with you, but get used to it, that is life.

I mean I'm not the one who can't tell the difference between a chicken and a human.

And as per your usual style, you end with an irrelevant personal attack. Well done.

[kq76]

Heh, I think HR and I went to the same school of picking apart posts.

Also..

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
I'll see your EQA and raise you some Win Shares.

And I'll raise you both with some XR and XWins, oh and some DIPS I have lying around somewhere.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally posted by sixfour210
I think you are dead wrong and so does everyone else in MLB for that matter

When did you get called up to the majors?

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
You are wrong, in my opinion. You may find it amazing or hard to take that someone dissagrees with you, but get used to it, that is life.

See, I could care less that you disagree with me. What I'm saying is that you insist that you're right all the time and can't possibly do any wrong. I just think this is extremely arrogant and naive. Open your eyes to the rest of the world HR. You could possibly be wrong about something.

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
See, I could care less that you disagree with me. What I'm saying is that you insist that you're right all the time and can't possibly do any wrong. I just think this is extremely arrogant and naive. Open your eyes to the rest of the world HR. You could possibly be wrong about something.

LOL

Of course I could be wrong. So could you. The difference is that I don't call you names or make sweeping judgements about you because I don't agree with you. That's the only bone I have to pick with you.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
LOL

Of course I could be wrong. So could you. The difference is that I don't call you names or make sweeping judgements about you because I don't agree with you. That's the only bone I have to pick with you.

Didn't call anyone names and any judgement I made was based on past "discussions" with you. I've done nothing that hasn't been reciprocated to me or anyone else. I'm not into quoting past threads but you most certainly have made sweping judgments on me based on my "completely wrong" thoughts.

Here's my point. You all could NOT do what any baseball executive does. You could not possibly be so full of yourselves that you think you could do a better job than anyone in any legitimate position in professional baseball. If you could, you wouldn't be here talking on this message board. You'd be using your exceptional talent for good use and helping some pro team to win a championship.

To have a healthy debate about a controversial topic is one thing but when you start saying that you know more than someone that has been in the game since before you were even born is where I draw the line. That's like me telling my mother I know more about raising kids at the age of 5.

I think this board is also very misleading because most of you think alike and tend to agree right away with things. You then get comfortable with being "right" all the time just because you get reassurance from the same people day after day. But if you were to take the same topic outside on the street, you'd find a more diverse mixture of ideas that conflict with your way of thinking.

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210


I think this board is also very misleading because most of you think alike and tend to agree right away with things.

When did that start happening?

[holyroller]

There again with the Major League Baseball executives argument. And once again I will ask you, if you really feel that way, that our arguments are wrong because they disagree with traditional baseball orthodoxy (and once again I point out that our arguments are in line with the thinking of Billy Beane, J.P. Ricciardi, Theo Epstein, Kevin Towers, Brian Cashman, and more and more baseball executives with each passing year), why do you even bother with the discussion. I could do the same thing to you, your ideas conflict with those of the GM's I mentioned, why are you so arrogant to presume that you know more about it than they do? See how that works? I don't really think that, I disagree with you because I have played baseball, watched baseball, and studied baseball, and I have formed opinions based on those experiences. Your opinions are different, and that is fine, but I'm not going to agree with you simply because you seem to really want me to. You seem to think that I am closed-minded or obstinant because I refuse to agree with you. That is simply not the case. I don't agree with you because I think my arguments are superior to yours, just as you think yours are superior to mine. If someone came along with an argument that was better than mine, I would rethink my position. The simple fact is you haven't. I used to think the same things about baseball that you did, until I read and heard and participated in arguments where I realized that my arguments weren't as strong. You can accuse me of being closed-minded or arrogant or middle-school minded or ignorant or any other number of things, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with you because I think you are wrong. I'm not all-knowing, far from it, and I have been wrong countless times and will be wrong countless more. However, what you seem to not realize is that you could as well. If you ever seriously want to discuss baseball based on actual arguments, than I am more than willing to do that and refrain entirely from getting personal. However, what you do is make an argument, someone disagrees with you, you make the same argument again, people still disagree with you, and then you go with the name calling (if you don't think you have engaged in that, I suggest you read your posts, in this thread alone, again). That's not a debate or an argument, that is completely pointless.

[Dwolfson20]

Originally posted by sixfour210
See, I could care less that you disagree with me. What I'm saying is that you insist that you're right all the time and can't possibly do any wrong. I just think this is extremely arrogant and naive. Open your eyes to the rest of the world HR. You could possibly be wrong about something.

Here's my problem: if you don't care that we disagree, then why in the heck are you so adamant about trying to change our minds?

So far you have been very hypocritical in that you have slammed us for refusing to concede to your points, while you have done exactly the same thing in response to ours.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Well guess what? I think you are dead wrong and so does everyone else in MLB for that matter as well as everyone else that I've talked to outside of this board. This is why I find it amazing that you keep trying to insist that I'm wrong all the time. I mean I'm not the one who can't tell the difference between a chicken and a human.

Aha sixfour; once again you prove that you dont let facts get in the way of perfectly good ignorance. Learn not to take an arguements personally, and learn that when ppl present evidence, crying "nah nah you're wrong because my mommy says so" doesn't quite cut it. till next time,
Aadik

[cooper_gd]

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
*looking for the line of owners outside Joe Morgan's door looking to hire him as a GM*

Jason

On that note . . .

SPORTSWIRE 5/01/03 ---BREAKING NEWS---

Cincinnati Reds GM Jim Bowden was fired today as a result of a poor start (the teams worst since 1997), horrible pitching, and a perceived team theory difference between the Carl H. Lindner owner group and the GM . . .

A spokesperson for the team said the short list for replacement GM's are Chris Berman, Harry Carey's Ghost, and Gordon Pimplebumm.

Berman is the long time sports announcer on ESPN. When asked about his qualifications, he responded - "On any given day during the baseball season, I have ten or more televisions tuned into the games on ESPN-SAT... I can safely say that I have probably watched more baseball than anyone. I see highlights every night," he continued, "and therefore know what type of plays score and what plays don't."...

Carey, the deceased play-by-play announcer of the Chicago Cubs answered to his qualifications and Cub fans feeling about he going to the Reds; "Whyth thaaaf's a sta-rappin' youngman - looook ath thfe size oft at sombrero."

Pimplebumm is the wild card of the group. A former college baseball player, the current accountant is an avid baseball watcher, armature historian and has a cult-like knowledge of Bill James' research. When asked why he would be a good GM, he replied;

GP:"Listen, you are not smarter than me, okay? My DOPS theorem (Dividend OPS) is going to re-write the game and how it is played. I won like 157 world championships in 220 years, right?"

SW:"Our bio says you are only 42... how did you-"

GP:"Listen, idiot, I developed my theory by playing a VERY realistic baseball simulation game. In fact, I've been playing them for years... strat-o-matic, microleague, earl weaver, front page, ootp... ya know? Quit looking at me like THAT! I'm taking Bill James to the next level - it's like the perfect murder - no snags, unbeatable!"

SW:"Ooookay... well, what is DOPS?"

GP:"Look, fool, what I do is take OPS, multiply in by a positive integer equaling games played, then divide that by total swings taken in a season for a hitter. The numeric result is the players energy rating factor - positive results verses energy used, i.e. actual swings of the bat. This number is finally multiplied by runs scored and hence the ultimate stat guide - Dividend OPS - D-O-P-S as I call it... and it is genius!"

SW:"Wow... would you like to comment on the Red Sox this year? A lot has been made of them employing Bill James as an advisor. . . Their bullpen has an ERA of 5.61 in 87 innings they have given up 105 hits! The starters have a 4.32 ERA and Pedro's walk to k ratio is way up! The Red Sox has always been able to hit, but is this pitching staff meltdown a concern?"

GP: "- - - - - -"

SW: "Miste-"

GP:"LISTEN HERE YOU SMARTHY F%$#@#$ SON OF A $%^#!, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMMENT ON ME TAKING A BASEBALL BAT AND SHOVING IT UP YOUR F&%$#@*---"

----SPORTSWIRE----

[cooper_gd]

I just thought it was a good article... I did not want people to start hating each other... too much hate in this world.

BTW: Pimplebumm could easily be me... minus the anger.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
Here's my problem: if you don't care that we disagree, then why in the heck are you so adamant about trying to change our minds?

So far you have been very hypocritical in that you have slammed us for refusing to concede to your points, while you have done exactly the same thing in response to ours.

There again you act like I'm trying to make you think a certain way. I have no stance on anything anymore. What I'm simply saying that you all seem very-closed minded when it comes to these discussions which makes it hard to bring up new ideas and ways of thinking with you all.

[sixfour210]

I don't agree with you because I think my arguments are superior to yours, just as you think yours are superior to mine.

You have to understand that I never even had an argument persay in this thread. I agreed with Joe Morgan that no one stat could make a championship team and we then got into talking about how everyone knows more than every baseball GM on the planet. This is where I disagreed. And again, if you think you know more than someone who is currently employed by a professional baseball team, while you're typing on a message board, then you're looney.