For the love of God....fix 3D PbP

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by eldur00

I'm not sure anyone thinks Markus has a budget like EA. In fact, nobody here is complaining about the quality of the graphics per say. I think most of us understand what this game is, and I know I am totally fine with graphic quality. I'm not fine with the "beta feel" 3D has with the delays, etc.
It is true 3D has improved. But you're looking at it as a contributing fan that has been here for a while. How is someone that is buying the game for the very first time going to react to how 3D works right now ?
I just think 3D would have been a fine addition if they would have been working on it on the side and wait for it to be working a lot better than it is right now. Right now, it's clunky. And I'm 100% sure they will get it right in due time.

We are allowed to be fans of the game and think some parts are not up to the standards we have been accustomed to, without being angry, picking a fight, or having an agenda. I bet the game would not be as good as it is if everyone would just always agree with everything and thinks every single feature is grand or making excuses for when it's not as grand as the rest.

I'll agree that right now, 3d is not as strong a part of the game as the actual sim. That said, it's light years above its origin. My point isn't that it doesn't need improvement...it's that these things take time. Patience seems to be in short supply in modern society. Baseball is supposed to be different.

Also, I'm not advocating that these newer guys keep silent or 'mind their place' because they're rookies. Their voice is as important as any other...but there are kinder ways of expressing yourself (and I'm frequently guilty of overt blunt verbal force myself, so I know full well what I'm saying) that ensure a more receptive response. I'd encourage anyone who has issues with todays game to look up the free version 8...if you can find it, and see just how incredibly far we've come.

Lastly, think about how many other games exist where you can personally interact with the development team on a DAILY BASIS. Folks need to be mindful of what a gift that is, and work to guarantee it stays that way.

[DreamTeams]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The big thing I want to see before I start zooming in closer or using the “center field” cams are:

- more variation in uniforms from the waist down, and at that probably a revamp of the way those are modeled onto the 3D figures. At the very least though I’d love to see some kind of option to set player to player and team to team re: showing stirrups, how tight those pants are (with looser flannel before the 60s, then those super tight polyester models into the 90s before a return to the “in between” flavor we have today), not to mention sleeveless jerseys and so on.

In my opinion proper pants is something that is way over due. Wasn't it supposed to be included in a patch several versions back? Can't recall, but hopefully it'll get addressed sooner than later.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth:

1, I would much rather have extra time and effort spent on making the AI better. To me that is the core of the gameplay. I would like to see the game progress to the depths of Football Manager AI (some questionable moves) but overall leaps and bounds better in my opinion. Better AI = more challenge, relistic owner goals, realistic GM/Manager careers i.e. job offers, reputation etc. The core of the game relies on the AI, and when I see the AI trade away it's best playes for pure garbage... it is maddening.

2. I play in 3D as well and definitely think it can be improved. One trick that i do to make it more in sync is set the 3D animation speed to fast or even very fast.. it makes it way more smooth.

TLDR- OOTP Team, please put efforts and time into the AI and core of the gameplay before working on animations please!

As has been mentioned over and over again, this isn't a zero sum game. The people who work on the AI are by and large not the same people who work on the 3D. And you can't just transfer people from one department to the other without basically losing them for a couple months as they learn their way around the new tech (and that's completely ignoring the fact that coding for graphics is a completely different beast compared to coding... anything else).

On the other hand, if they make more money from PT for example they can plow that back into hiring devs for the AI *and* hiring devs for the graphics side of things.

[curt]

Originally Posted by Tony820

*Can anyone guess I'm in a 7 game losing streak?

[too_on_too_out]

Originally Posted by Giants44

I love 3D - It is the only way I play now

I see its flaws (I didn't even see my pet peeve which is a 2 out "send\dont send" option ALWAYS leads to the 3D and play by play fast forwarding time warp style to the next AB without showing or telling you the result and you have to figure it out based upon the score and outs)

I want them to get better

I see it getting better

I still want it get even better

I dont want them to "concentrate somewhere else" and have never understand this line of reasoning in any area of the game. the game has a 20 year record of massive never ending improvements - most of which I love, some of which I dont care or will never care about. But someone else does and that makes the game better for them. this game already does so much that really matters to me, it is never my expectation that it ONLY fixes things I like. fix it all, get better. we trust you, you've earned it

Sure, it's easy to get misty eyed. But how about coughing up some coin? How about if they went subscription-based, so you're paying $100 year, every year?

[too_on_too_out]

Originally Posted by Calvert98

That is awesome!!! Hopefully the player models will get some work too.

Anyway, great news. Thanks for sharing Markus!

Just had to add, thank you for taking the time to check-in with the community and for listening to the OOTP fans here.

-Cal

No, it is not 'awesome' if the new developers are put on churning ever more new features. This game already has more features than Photo Shop. What it needs is a serious look at how to hone what it has and start tying it all together. And THAT alone will be a major, years-long overhaul.

[EDIT] In fact, I am adding also this: I find it chilling that Markus made no mention of a designer. A designer. Bud, the UI is pre-war era. Navigation, screen real estate, information design. Not a big, green button. Figure it out. Do it right.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

- more variation in uniforms from the waist down, and at that probably a revamp of the way those are modeled onto the 3D figures.

This came up recently in the OOTP Mods forum. I'd love to be able to at least recolor the pants, but ideally to add detail (e.g., stripes) as well.

I think one difficulty would be that the on-field player models do not seem to be optimized for customizing. That is, things that look great on the profile picture do not always translate well when zoomed in on the field. Lines and images get stretched and distorted, even if they look okay in the profile pic.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that originally the assumption was that we would use the default or wide camera views, so texturing the models on the field was not as high a priority. Logos/wordmarks on the chest seem to work fine, but the lower down the torso and nearer to the sides where the mesh begins to curve, images and designs start getting distorted.

Markus: Feel free to correct me if my impressions are wrong. This is purely interpretive on my part based on experience with other games that allow costume customization for 3D meshes.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

This came up recently in the OOTP Mods forum. I'd love to be able to at least recolor the pants, but ideally to add detail (e.g., stripes) as well.

I think one difficulty would be that the on-field player models do not seem to be optimized for customizing. That is, things that look great on the profile picture do not always translate well when zoomed in on the field. Lines and images get stretched and distorted, even if they look okay in the profile pic.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that originally the assumption was that we would use the default or wide camera views, so texturing the models on the field was not as high a priority. Logos/wordmarks on the chest seem to work fine, but the lower down the torso and nearer to the sides where the mesh begins to curve, images and designs start getting distorted.

Markus: Feel free to correct me if my impressions are wrong. This is purely interpretive on my part based on experience with other games that allow costume customization for 3D meshes.

I’ll go a step further with that: originally hats and jerseys were only supposed to be part of FaceGen related stuff. It was implemented long before 3D became a thing. When 3D got implemented they decided that instead of reworking the whole way you do custom jerseys, and in the offing blow up a whole bunch of the mods that have been done, they’d try to lay on the mod work into the game.

It does work, kind of, sure. It doesn’t look particularly good up close but that was frankly always a bit too much to ask of that process.

[Dave Stieb II]

Per quote from earlier post:

2. I play in 3D as well and definitely think it can be improved. One trick that i do to make it more in sync is set the 3D animation speed to fast or even very fast.. it makes it way more smooth.

TLDR- OOTP Team, please put efforts and time into the AI and core of the gameplay before working on animations please!

My response:

I took your advice. I upped the animation speed - just to 'slightly faster' or whatever is below fast - and the game did seem to play out smoother and certainly moved quicker, which I also liked.
I did find myself getting a little nauseas though. I never did like amusement park rides so I might wait and allow myself to adjust before advancing to fast or, I CAN DO THIS, very fast.
Of course, I've also been eating way too much of my own cooking during this virus lockdown and that might have something to do with how I felt also.
Seriously though: Good, sound advice, thanks.


I also totally agree with your plea to put more time into the AI and core gameplay. That is definitely where I'd like to see the emphasis put.
I respect the fact I'm only one customer and that others might prefer the focus to be on other areas of the game but I would be remiss to not state my case - or in this case, support your case, and allow my little bat boy voice to be heard.
P.S. I'm on my fourth consecutive version of the game with too many thousands of hours of game time under my belt and I'm far too old to be a bat boy. But call me what you will.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I also totally agree with your plea to put more time into the AI and core gameplay. That is definitely where I'd like to see the emphasis put.
I respect the fact I'm only one customer and that others might prefer the focus to be on other areas of the game but I would be remiss to not state my case - or in this case, support your case, and allow my little bat boy voice to be heard.

This
I'm shocked so many people care about pants, but, to each our own

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

This
I'm shocked so many people care about pants, but, to each our own

It is possible to care about more than one thing at a time.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Per quote from earlier post:

2. I play in 3D as well and definitely think it can be improved. One trick that i do to make it more in sync is set the 3D animation speed to fast or even very fast.. it makes it way more smooth.

TLDR- OOTP Team, please put efforts and time into the AI and core of the gameplay before working on animations please!

My response:

I took your advice. I upped the animation speed - just to 'slightly faster' or whatever is below fast - and the game did seem to play out smoother and certainly moved quicker, which I also liked.
I did find myself getting a little nauseas though. I never did like amusement park rides so I might wait and allow myself to adjust before advancing to fast or, I CAN DO THIS, very fast.
Of course, I've also been eating way too much of my own cooking during this virus lockdown and that might have something to do with how I felt also.
Seriously though: Good, sound advice, thanks.


I also totally agree with your plea to put more time into the AI and core gameplay. That is definitely where I'd like to see the emphasis put.
I respect the fact I'm only one customer and that others might prefer the focus to be on other areas of the game but I would be remiss to not state my case - or in this case, support your case, and allow my little bat boy voice to be heard.
P.S. I'm on my fourth consecutive version of the game with too many thousands of hours of game time under my belt and I'm far too old to be a bat boy. But call me what you will.

If you find the camera moving too fast, in the game setup options there are some parameters you can configure. Some people find that using a higher camera speed leads to it being less jerky, some may prefer a lower speed so the camera takes a smoother path.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth:

1, I would much rather have extra time and effort spent on making the AI better. To me that is the core of the gameplay. I would like to see the game progress to the depths of Football Manager AI (some questionable moves) but overall leaps and bounds better in my opinion. Better AI = more challenge, relistic owner goals, realistic GM/Manager careers i.e. job offers, reputation etc. The core of the game relies on the AI, and when I see the AI trade away it's best playes for pure garbage... it is maddening.

2. I play in 3D as well and definitely think it can be improved. One trick that i do to make it more in sync is set the 3D animation speed to fast or even very fast.. it makes it way more smooth.

TLDR- OOTP Team, please put efforts and time into the AI and core of the gameplay before working on animations please!

I'll have to try that...

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It is possible to care about more than one thing at a time.

Jag vet

I didn't say people shouldn't care about pants.
Or that they were silly for caring about pants instead of X

Only that I, personally, was surprised that so many people seem to care about pants.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Jag vet

I didn't say people shouldn't care about pants.
Or that they were silly for caring about pants instead of X

Only that I, personally, was surprised that so many people seem to care about pants.

It's probably mostly those of us who like historical play--with a bump up for those who like the HP or other close up views. It just looks weird to see the 1978 Cardinals with their blue jerseys, but stock gray pants.

Besides, creating uniforms is fun.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by bwiese3908

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth:

1, I would much rather have extra time and effort spent on making the AI better. To me that is the core of the gameplay. I would like to see the game progress to the depths of Football Manager AI (some questionable moves) but overall leaps and bounds better in my opinion. Better AI = more challenge, relistic owner goals, realistic GM/Manager careers i.e. job offers, reputation etc. The core of the game relies on the AI, and when I see the AI trade away it's best playes for pure garbage... it is maddening.

2. I play in 3D as well and definitely think it can be improved. One trick that i do to make it more in sync is set the 3D animation speed to fast or even very fast.. it makes it way more smooth.

TLDR- OOTP Team, please put efforts and time into the AI and core of the gameplay before working on animations please!

Okay, just as an update, I've played two more games - both with the animation speed at fast - and I highly recommend that anyone who hasn't tried it, do so at your earliest opportunity.
The advice in #2 above is excellent and exactly why these forums are invaluable. The animation IS far smoother/crisper, corresponds with pbp much better in terms of timing, and the games move along much more quickly.


This is great advice....(and so is #1 above).

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

If you find the camera moving too fast, in the game setup options there are some parameters you can configure. Some people find that using a higher camera speed leads to it being less jerky, some may prefer a lower speed so the camera takes a smoother path.

Thanks, Matt. I'll give that a try. But as I just posted, upping the animation speed to fast has already enhanced my in-game enjoyment substantially. I've adapted to the change already (the wine might have helped) and things seem much more fluid, in synch with the pbp, and everything just seems crisper.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Yeah pants over say a fully fleshed out GM mode lol. I still rather have real GM mode over working 3d. I have no problem never playing a game out. Highlights are fine.

But I haven't seen the GM mode improve either. It's the exact same game okay experience as ootp 18 at least.

As fans of the game just be honest. I've never bashed the devs. Mad respect for them. But no game is above honest criticism. I never try to be harsh just honest.

I think ootpb could use some dead weight cut. Fictional, historical, online play... Sorry but it's dead weight. Cut it out. Focus on the game, GM mode, PT and mobile. Yes the billion customization options are great and ootpb does it good. But it is also a roadblock to get ootpb to the next level as a video game.

I mean so many forumites just like to create a universe and see what the numbers/results are. Sorry but that is not a true "video game experience". They will always have whatever the last version is. Why keep propagating it to the next version ad nauseum.

Even the people that just want modern results but no okay the game.Freeze the version sell them new roster dlc every year for $25 with a free patch and bug fixes.

And let's get a kick ass baseball management sim!!!!!

[Westheim]

Yeah, I was gonna say - wait, what??

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

I think ootpb could use some dead weight cut. Fictional, historical, online play... Sorry but it's dead weight. Cut it out.

The solution to "wonky 3D" according to you is to axe everything that sets the game apart from every other *annual roster upgrade* game?? I think step one should be that instead you should cut out the Lysol........

On a serious note; if you want a semi-pretty game with no customization options, no historical play etc. you should check out Football Manager, might be right up your alley. Don't soil this game like that.

[Tony820]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

But back on topic. 3D is always under development, and in the last few patches we have made good progress in fixing quirks. The next patch will add new animations and will fine-tune existing ones. It's getting better every year, but there is still a lot of work to do of course. And obviously because we have a stats driven engine and not a 3D engine, what you see in 3D is always an interpretation of the calculated play, same as the PbP, so there will be differences. Having a pure 3D engine is not possible and not desired, as a) simulations would slow to a crawl and b) the tens of thousands of lines of PbP text would be obsolete.

So, if you do not like it in its current state then I am sorry. All I can say is that we spend a considerable time, considering our limited resources, working on it every single year and making it better every single year, nobody can dispute that.

Markus, as the OP of this thread, just want to say thank you for responding and love to hear it. I won’t admit to anyone how much time I spend on this game, lol, so obviously my passion for this franchise is deep, I just want a less frustrating experience while playing the day to day grind in 3D.

Can’t wait for the next patch and what’s ahead!