PbP comparisons between OOTP and DMB

[BusterKing]

Over 80 posts in this thread about this issue and Markus hasn't replied once yet.

The 'text' aspect of this game was what made it so popular.

I agree with SittingDuck, it seems like this area is not important to Markus and it's being neglected while many of his customers feel that it is in fact 'THE' most important part to keep us entertained.

Some long overdue improvements are needed and I hope that he can provide it to us very soon.

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

It's interesting, Duck, that two of the nine members of the so-called Design Team were PbP specialists (i.e., tysok and me). One would think that we might have Markus' ear (so to speak). Guess not. It made no difference to the PbP that we were part of that team.

I have appreciated the work of you & Tysok for quite sometime. Don't give up hope yet. I am cautiously optimistic for 3 reasons...

1. After some long threads about PBP last year, Markus did improve it and did post a comment about it.

2. Markus is considering buying a copy of DMB. When he sees the difference in PBP between DMB & OOTP, hopefully this will motivate him.

3. As I have said in previous threads, I think redoing the PBP correctly is a huge huge undertaking. One that requires considerable planning & decision making. Consider things like...
A. Multiple announcers (verbose, emotional, average, succinct, etc.)
B. Connecting the PBP to the existing almanac (league history, records, etc.)
C. Connecting the PBP to the current season stats (streaks, leaderboards, etc.)
D. Connecting the PBP to the player's personal history (accomplishments, personal best, trades, age, etc.)
E. Connecting the PBP to Team events (current road trip, success vs opposint teams, etc.)

I think that Markus will do this (Probably OOTP 11 or 12), but when he does - he will want to do it right. This would represent a major rewrite of the existing code, and will require considerable planning (and perhaps polling) before it can be implemented. Did I mention that this will be a huge undertaking? For this to get done, he needs time - a lot of time.

You & Tysok are the people that I (and many others) look to for the temporary small fixes that can be done now. You are appreciated!

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Spitfire---Aurelio Rodriguez? Of All the Tigers from that period, you bring up Aurelio Rodriguez? Thank you. He was my first boyhood hero. Did you ever get to see him live? Incredible.. he made great plays effortlessly, and had a cannon for a Arm. You made my day. Oh and Ernie wasn't hard on the ears either.

Glad you enjoyed the memory. Nope, never had the pleasure of seeing Aurelio play live. I lived then and still do in Winnipeg, Manitoba, so live major league ball is something very rare for me. This doesn't really count, but I saw the Expos play an exhibition when they had their Triple A team here. That was back in the Rusty Staub/Claude Raymond era. Still have the program! Steve Rogers pitched for that Winnipeg Whips team, and actually married a girl from Winnipeg. Some of the guys I definitely remember coming through town on the other clubs are Don Baylor, Bobby Grich, Richie Zisk, Carleton Fisk, etc. I recall a Big Moment when the Mets sent Ed Kranepool down to Tidewater and he played a series here against the locals. It was nice to see a guy who had been on that famous '69 team, as the players named above were still on the way up and weren't the household names they'd later become.

Was in Toronto a few years ago and a friend got tix to a Jays game through his law firm. We had a seat about 10 rows up, right behind home plate. That was the season that Tony Fernandez was back in Toronto and made a run at .400 for a while. I recall in that game that a young Roy Halladay struck out around 10 Tigers. That's the only regulation major league game I've ever seen. You can't imagine what it was like after all these years to FINALLY see a real big-league game live. It might be routine to some of you guys who live in the major cities, but it was something else for me to be in the Dome and watching the real deal. Most of my experience was from tv and also listening to those night games on radio, which I did a lot in my younger days. Tigers, Cards, Twins especially. Loved it when those teams were out on the coast, as the late starts meant I could catch most of the game! Used to love the glove men, and Aurelio was my Main Man in those days.

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

3. As I have said in previous threads, I think redoing the PBP correctly is a huge huge undertaking. One that requires considerable planning & decision making. Consider things like...
A. Multiple announcers (verbose, emotional, average, succinct, etc.)
B. Connecting the PBP to the existing almanac (league history, records, etc.)
C. Connecting the PBP to the current season stats (streaks, leaderboards, etc.)
D. Connecting the PBP to the player's personal history (accomplishments, personal best, trades, age, etc.)
E. Connecting the PBP to Team events (current road trip, success vs opposint teams, etc.)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In my first season this player was released by the Hamsters and signed by the Squid. Six years later the Squid trade him back to the Hamsters for two players.

This has the makings of an interesting PBP commentary; Discarded by his first team (on opening day), six years later they give up two players to get him back.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I have appreciated the work of you & Tysok for quite sometime. Don't give up hope yet. I am cautiously optimistic for 3 reasons...

1. After some long threads about PBP last year, Markus did improve it and did post a comment about it.

2. Markus is considering buying a copy of DMB. When he sees the difference in PBP between DMB & OOTP, hopefully this will motivate him.

3. As I have said in previous threads, I think redoing the PBP correctly is a huge huge undertaking. One that requires considerable planning & decision making. Consider things like...
A. Multiple announcers (verbose, emotional, average, succinct, etc.)
B. Connecting the PBP to the existing almanac (league history, records, etc.)
C. Connecting the PBP to the current season stats (streaks, leaderboards, etc.)
D. Connecting the PBP to the player's personal history (accomplishments, personal best, trades, age, etc.)
E. Connecting the PBP to Team events (current road trip, success vs opposint teams, etc.)

I think that Markus will do this (Probably OOTP 11 or 12), but when he does - he will want to do it right. This would represent a major rewrite of the existing code, and will require considerable planning (and perhaps polling) before it can be implemented. Did I mention that this will be a huge undertaking? For this to get done, he needs time - a lot of time.

You & Tysok are the people that I (and many others) look to for the temporary small fixes that can be done now. You are appreciated!

I would be in PBP Heaven if this ever comes to pass.

In reality, I am 68 years old now.

I think I will be in the real Heaven by the time Markus fixes the PBP.

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I would be in PBP Heaven if this ever comes to pass.

In reality, I am 68 years old now.

I think I will be in the real Heaven by the time Markus fixes the PBP.

Then there is only one thing that you can do. You (and the moderator) need to fly over to Germany and shake Markus by the shoulders.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

After three years of long endless hours working on the PBP, don't you think tysok, pstrickert and others have proved their knowledge of the game and their dedication and zeal to perfect the PBP.

Of course they have. That's not what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

It would not surprise me if they worked 8-10 hours a day on the PBP. They may be volunteers, but work like they are being paid thousands.

Undoubtedly. But the potential problem with using volunteers only is that the game developer is then at the mercy of the voluteers' ability to devote their free time and energy to the project. Volunteers obviously have their real lives to worry about and that means their time cannot be guaranteed to a given project. Look at how some good folks who were supposed to be on the beta testing team had to drop out because the game's beta release schedule changed.

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

What are those two related areas? Please expound briefly on them.

1) The financial model, which very much needs an overhaul; and 2) the very limited way separate leagues interact, which greatly restricts both historical and fictional options for players.

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I hope Markus will make PBP what it should be...and soon.

For me, time spent improving the PbP would be of little practical use because I have no interest in playing out games so I would never see the results of the effort. Now, improved news stories, that's an area I would certainly see any improvements made (and it's a text area of the game that definitely could also use some enhancements).

For those who do play out their games, then naturally better PbP is of a much greater priority. Hence my comment on priorities and folks campaigning for their respective issues.

[PhillieFever]

Since everyone seems to have a take on this,I thought I'd throw my two cents in.Now I can only speak for me,but I'm pretty sure that this goes for most guys here.I grew up listening to Harry and Whitey do the PBP for Phillies games my entire life,and because of this I hve a ton of memories of listening to games with my friends,family Etc...and it made that part of baseball special for me.I still to this day love listening to games on the radio.So when I play OOTP,it brings me back to that time and although the PBP could be better,the charm is still there and that is the biggest draw of the game for me.But for Markus,who's by his own admission a new fan of the game,those memories don't exist so I don't believe he feels the same way I(we) do about this subject,the passion isn't there when it comes to the PBP so obviously you get what you have,something that feels restrained and tacked on.Hopefully he'll read this entire thread and realize that his customers want a better PBP engine and he'll finally do something about it.

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Since everyone seems to have a take on this,I thought I'd throw my two cents in.Now I can only speak for me,but I'm pretty sure that this goes for most guys here.I grew up listening to Harry and Whitey do the PBP for Phillies games my entire life,and because of this I hve a ton of memories of listening to games with my friends,family Etc...and it made that part of baseball special for me.I still to this day love listening to games on the radio.So when I play OOTP,it brings me back to that time and although the PBP could be better,the charm is still there and that is the biggest draw of the game for me.But for Markus,who's by his own admission a new fan of the game,those memories don't exist so I don't believe he feels the same way I(we) do about this subject,the passion isn't there when it comes to the PBP so obviously you get what you have,something that feels restrained and tacked on.Hopefully he'll read this entire thread and realize that his customers want a better PBP engine and he'll finally do something about it.

I agree with you, and note that Markus has stated recently that he primarily sims his games and only plays out the most important ones. I suspect that simmers may be wondering what all this PBP nonsense is all about.

I don't know about the rest of you who play out your games, but I'm starting to feel a bit like a second-class OOTP citizen.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Since everyone seems to have a take on this,I thought I'd throw my two cents in.Now I can only speak for me,but I'm pretty sure that this goes for most guys here.I grew up listening to Harry and Whitey do the PBP for Phillies games my entire life,and because of this I hve a ton of memories of listening to games with my friends,family Etc...and it made that part of baseball special for me.I still to this day love listening to games on the radio.So when I play OOTP,it brings me back to that time and although the PBP could be better,the charm is still there and that is the biggest draw of the game for me.But for Markus,who's by his own admission a new fan of the game,those memories don't exist so I don't believe he feels the same way I(we) do about this subject,the passion isn't there when it comes to the PBP so obviously you get what you have,something that feels restrained and tacked on.Hopefully he'll read this entire thread and realize that his customers want a better PBP engine and he'll finally do something about it.

You make a very good point.
As Ambermonk stated, Markus is a simmer. IMO he is only interested in the PBP in that it gives the play results the way he programmed it.
The style and nuance of the PBP is not important to him.
All he wants is a basic description that fit his programming. It doesn't have to be interesting.

OOTPB is keyed IMO to simmers as they composed about 60%-65% of his customers.

I can understand that, but I think it is time to work on the PBP and News, too.

[Eugene Church]

LGO, I understand your points and you always have good ones. Basically, each one of us plays OOTPB in a certain way and there are 100 ways to play it. We all have our favorite area of the game that we want to be fixed and improved.

I saw a tremendous amount of time and focus spent on Scouting this time around. I hope it came out well and has been improved. But I don't use Scouting. I hope it is important to most of the community as we certainly could have use the manpower, man hours and the concentrated focus on the PBP and News, if it wasn't important to most of the community.

If Markus gave battists, tysok and pstrickert one concentrated week of work and focus on the PBP, News and Hard-Code, the game would be greatly improved. I mean a solid week, where he would work with them on a close, daily basis to get the job done. He could do it after the final patch of OOTP9 and before he starts on OOTP10.

To me personally, Scouting was not a feature I wished Markus had focused on. I also think the focus on animation and sound could have been used on other areas of the game that need fixing. I understand that many people like the sound and animation despite it many shortcomings and I am happy for them. IMO they really aren't well done, but it is a beginning and apparently good for the game and good for sales, which I am all for.

I think Markus puts too many new features in the game each year and doesn't perfect them. New features just for the sake of new features is not acceptable to me and have so stated for about five years now. I wish he would begin including new features that are fully tested and work. Otherwise, don't put them in. Fix the old features before you add new ones.

For OOTP10, I hope he just fixes the major problems with OOTP9 and adds only new features that work.

But that is just my opinion and it could very well be wrong.

[THEOVELS]

Originally Posted by Broth32

I still miss the "color" PBP that OOTP used to have. Example: Joe Smith comes in batting .333 vs lefties, or John Doe is 2-1 with a 2.77 ERA in the month of June.

I miss miss miss this in the PBP

I ditto that!