Bobby Cox gets 1800th win - Page 5

lynchjm24 · 09-23-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Old Man, you alias you:

Look up the difference between supported opinions, informed opinions, and uninformed opinions. The time you spend doing it will be well worth it for you.

Got this from google.

1. Supported Opinion - When Mal agrees with Bill James, esp. with regards to Atlanta Braves.

2. Informed Opinion - Any opinion that Mal has.

3. Uninformed Opinion - Any opinion that is in opposition of an opinion of Mal's.

Malleus Dei · 09-23-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toanstrom
People are always looking to discredit Cox but truth be told he always gets the job done, and always wins against the top competition.

True. Plus people are always claiming "so-and-so is a better manager," but when you look at the numbers or the analysis, Cox is the best of all the current managers. This is not that LaRussa and Torre aren't darned good managers, because they are, just that the numbers and the analysis tells you who the best one is.

As I said at the beginning, you are looking at a future legend. I had the same thought when I was watching Billy Martin and Earl Weaver manage (they are my two favorite managers of all time).

Malleus Dei · 09-23-2002, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lynchjm24

Got this from google.

1. Supported Opinion - When Mal agrees with Bill James, esp. with regards to Atlanta Braves.

2. Informed Opinion - Any opinion that Mal has.

3. Uninformed Opinion - Any opinion that is in opposition of an opinion of Mal's.

You missed again, that was what was listed under "really stupid and insulting opinions." Take that crap back to Off Topic where it belongs, and go with it if you don't want to talk baseball.

KWhit · 09-23-2002, 07:36 PM

Another flame war. And guess who's in the middle of it yet again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Old Man, you alias you:

Look up the difference between supported opinions, informed opinions, and uninformed opinions. The time you spend doing it will be well worth it for you.

Mal,

Look up the difference between pomposity and modesty. The time you spend doing it will be well worth it for you.

Just a thought...

Old Man · 09-23-2002, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Old Man, you alias you:

Look up the difference between supported opinions, informed opinions, and uninformed opinions. The time you spend doing it will be well worth it for you.

Just like you I look up what I want to look up. But here is one for you

Another opinion for you:

I am not an alias. Why? Because I know me, trust me I could not be 2 people. My wife can hardly stand one of me.

Can I support it? Inform you of it? Some things are better left uninformed, let people believe what they will. Live and let live.

holyroller · 09-23-2002, 07:38 PM

Mal,

Bill James has also done research and determined that baseball is better today then it has ever been. As you have vehemently stated before, you believe that baseball peaked in the 50's and it has been all downhill from there. He has reasons for his opinions and you have reasons for yours. I would regard both of them as "informed opinions" whatever the hell that is, but they are opinions nonetheless. Bobby Cox being the best manager in the game IS an opinion. You can make a very very strong argument for him, but you can also make a case for other managers as well. Flame away....

KWhit · 09-23-2002, 07:40 PM

Well said, Holyroller.

toanstrom · 09-23-2002, 07:41 PM

This is quite possibly the most stupid and childish thing i have ever seen. Mal asked you to give any kind of support for your simply stating that he was wrong (people didnt even start naming other possibilities until pages into this thing) and all of a sudden he gets accused of "starting a flame war" and "not knowing when to shut up" If people really want to drop the issue than drop it rather than coming up with clever little cartoons and drawing on some mock trial experience in High School.

Old Man · 09-23-2002, 07:48 PM

I think everyone has a right to their opinion. I thought this was about opinions and not a debate?

Now clutch hitting THAT was a debate.

Cooleyvol · 09-23-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toanstrom
This is quite possibly the most stupid and childish thing i have ever seen. Mal asked you to give any kind of support for your simply stating that he was wrong (people didnt even start naming other possibilities until pages into this thing) and all of a sudden he gets accused of "starting a flame war" and "not knowing when to shut up" If people really want to drop the issue than drop it rather than coming up with clever little cartoons and drawing on some mock trial experience in High School.

Dude, I never said Mal was wrong. I merely stated that my opinion was different from his.

Both are opinions and, thusly, unprovable.

darkhorse · 09-23-2002, 08:41 PM

I haven't watched an MLB game since the '94 strike and loathe modern pro baseball so much I won't play that period in OOTP. However, Bill James says baseball has never been better. Malleus, would you start another thread and explain to us all the beauty of the game at present and Bill James expert analysis of why. I wouldn't want to be in error.

JAttractive · 09-23-2002, 08:55 PM

Toanstrom I think you are failing to see what some of us are saying. Ok maybe my analogy to a mock trial years ago was weak but the point is still the same:

If someone wants to claim SOMETHING, ANYTHING is the best the onus is on them to prove it. By simply disagreeing with them we have nothing to prove. We don't need to provide alternative answers. But the real kicker is that the first party will never be able to prove it. You can never prove who is the best, never. It is just not something you can transform in to a fact. So therefore Cooleyvol is actually correct, despite convincing arguements made my Mal.

Whether you want to accept it or not no one, not Bill James, not Malleus, not me, not Cooleyvol, not anyone on this planet can answer that question.

I should probably just get out of this thread but I always cringe when someone tries to pass something as fact when it is actually not (and will never be fact).

JAttractive · 09-23-2002, 09:02 PM

I am going to do my best to resist the urge to post here again but I will read the replies. I said my piece and if you still think you can "prove" who is best be my guest.

Kezzek · 09-23-2002, 10:28 PM

I think everyone would appreciate a good solid debate but not an argument.

Debate the person's position, not the person.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right here, in regards to the debate topic. I'm just saying that there was (and continues to be) a lot of uncalled for personal attacks in this thread. Having to read that junk is the virtual equivalent of stepping in dog sh*t.

Having read this board (and at least one of its predecessors) over the past year and a half, I can't shake the feeling that it's getting worse than ever. More and more people (regulars and anonymous joes) seem to like "piling on" and making threads sink in a downward spiral of stupid maliciousness. Christ almighty, people aren't *that* witty. In fact, it isn't "wit". It's the internet's version of:

"Poopiehead!"
"Nuh-uh, YOU are!"

Bleh. It's degrading. To you, to me, to all of us. You might be "anonymous" behind that monitor but it would do everyone well to listen to that same whispering conscience that keeps (most of) us from acting like this in real life.

Sorry for the mini-rant and off-topic tangent. I'll now leave this thread and let the baseball talk continue. (hopefully)

Malleus Dei · 09-23-2002, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kezzek
I think everyone would appreciate a good solid debate but not an argument.

Debate the person's position, not the person.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right here, in regards to the debate topic. I'm just saying that there was (and continues to be) a lot of uncalled for personal attacks in this thread. Having to read that junk is the virtual equivalent of stepping in dog sh*t.

Having read this board (and at least one of its predecessors) over the past year and a half, I can't shake the feeling that it's getting worse than ever. More and more people (regulars and anonymous joes) seem to like "piling on" and making threads sink in a downward spiral of stupid maliciousness. Christ almighty, people aren't *that* witty. In fact, it isn't "wit". It's the internet's version of:

"Poopiehead!"
"Nuh-uh, YOU are!"

Bleh. It's degrading. To you, to me, to all of us. You might be "anonymous" behind that monitor but it would do everyone well to listen to that same whispering conscience that keeps (most of) us from acting like this in real life.

Sorry for the mini-rant and off-topic tangent. I'll now leave this thread and let the baseball talk continue. (hopefully)

Kezzek, I try to get them to get them to talk baseball but what you have described seems to be all that they know how to do.

Thanks. I really do appreciate hearing another adult voice in this wilderness.

Modern Relic · 09-23-2002, 11:49 PM

Dammit Mal, that's just not fair. Now you know I've not slung a single insult at you, and I'm not taking sides here. But I think that HR raised an excellent point. Why not address it? If you're going to use Bill James as the argument ender in favor of Cox, then I think it's only fair that you address the fact that James feels baseball today is better than it ever was.

I and everyone else here know how you feel about that issue. Heck, I even agree with you on that point. So is James right about Bobby Cox and wrong about the state of baseball?

And if he's wrong about the state of baseball, couldn't he JUST POSSIBLY be wrong about Bobby Cox? He is only human, after all.

Please tell me what I'm missing here.

toanstrom · 09-24-2002, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JAttractive
\If someone wants to claim SOMETHING, ANYTHING is the best the onus is on them to prove it. By simply disagreeing with them we have nothing to prove. We don't need to provide alternative answers\

If all this is true why do we even bother to debate here? If all I have to say to someone i disagree with is, "you cant prove it, neh neh neh!!!" Then why should anyone bother to post here? The idea is to start CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENTS ABOUT BASEBALL!!!

If we can never convince someone else of our viewpoint through facts and evidence then why bother to state an opinion. Now if you want to pick a bone with James thats fine, thats called DEBATE. Otherwise maybe we should have forums for people who think exactly like we do, that way we would never infringe on anyones right to have an opinion.

Jason Moyer · 09-24-2002, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Bill James has also done research and determined that baseball is better today then it has ever been.

Where was this published?

Edit: I'm only curious because in the new abstract he has a rather lengthy essay on all of the things that need to be done to fix baseball.

Jason

Malleus Dei · 09-24-2002, 08:01 AM

I've read the same essay. His list looks like mine.

Modern Relic · 09-24-2002, 09:26 AM

HR? Can you post a link to James's comments stating baseball is better than ever?

09-23-2002, 07:38 PM	#86
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Mal, Bill James has also done research and determined that baseball is better today then it has ever been. As you have vehemently stated before, you believe that baseball peaked in the 50's and it has been all downhill from there. He has reasons for his opinions and you have reasons for yours. I would regard both of them as "informed opinions" whatever the hell that is, but they are opinions nonetheless. Bobby Cox being the best manager in the game IS an opinion. You can make a very very strong argument for him, but you can also make a case for other managers as well. Flame away.... __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

09-23-2002, 07:40 PM	#87
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Well said, Holyroller. __________________

09-23-2002, 08:41 PM	#91
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	I haven't watched an MLB game since the '94 strike and loathe modern pro baseball so much I won't play that period in OOTP. However, Bill James says baseball has never been better. Malleus, would you start another thread and explain to us all the beauty of the game at present and Bill James expert analysis of why. I wouldn't want to be in error. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

09-23-2002, 10:28 PM	#94
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	I think everyone would appreciate a good solid debate but not an argument. Debate the person's position, not the person. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right here, in regards to the debate topic. I'm just saying that there was (and continues to be) a lot of uncalled for personal attacks in this thread. Having to read that junk is the virtual equivalent of stepping in dog sht. Having read this board (and at least one of its predecessors) over the past year and a half, I can't shake the feeling that it's getting worse than ever. More and more people (regulars and anonymous joes) seem to like "piling on" and making threads sink in a downward spiral of stupid maliciousness. Christ almighty, people aren't that* witty. In fact, it isn't "wit". It's the internet's version of: "Poopiehead!" "Nuh-uh, YOU are!" Bleh. It's degrading. To you, to me, to all of us. You might be "anonymous" behind that monitor but it would do everyone well to listen to that same whispering conscience that keeps (most of) us from acting like this in real life. Sorry for the mini-rant and off-topic tangent. I'll now leave this thread and let the baseball talk continue. (hopefully) __________________ - Kez, P.E.

09-23-2002, 11:49 PM	#96
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	Dammit Mal, that's just not fair. Now you know I've not slung a single insult at you, and I'm not taking sides here. But I think that HR raised an excellent point. Why not address it? If you're going to use Bill James as the argument ender in favor of Cox, then I think it's only fair that you address the fact that James feels baseball today is better than it ever was. I and everyone else here know how you feel about that issue. Heck, I even agree with you on that point. So is James right about Bobby Cox and wrong about the state of baseball? And if he's wrong about the state of baseball, couldn't he JUST POSSIBLY be wrong about Bobby Cox? He is only human, after all. Please tell me what I'm missing here. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

09-23-2002, 07:41 PM	#88
toanstrom Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 277	This is quite possibly the most stupid and childish thing i have ever seen. Mal asked you to give any kind of support for your simply stating that he was wrong (people didnt even start naming other possibilities until pages into this thing) and all of a sudden he gets accused of "starting a flame war" and "not knowing when to shut up" If people really want to drop the issue than drop it rather than coming up with clever little cartoons and drawing on some mock trial experience in High School.

09-23-2002, 07:48 PM	#89
Old Man Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 464	I think everyone has a right to their opinion. I thought this was about opinions and not a debate? Now clutch hitting THAT was a debate.

09-23-2002, 08:55 PM	#92
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Toanstrom I think you are failing to see what some of us are saying. Ok maybe my analogy to a mock trial years ago was weak but the point is still the same: If someone wants to claim SOMETHING, ANYTHING is the best the onus is on them to prove it. By simply disagreeing with them we have nothing to prove. We don't need to provide alternative answers. But the real kicker is that the first party will never be able to prove it. You can never prove who is the best, never. It is just not something you can transform in to a fact. So therefore Cooleyvol is actually correct, despite convincing arguements made my Mal. Whether you want to accept it or not no one, not Bill James, not Malleus, not me, not Cooleyvol, not anyone on this planet can answer that question. I should probably just get out of this thread but I always cringe when someone tries to pass something as fact when it is actually not (and will never be fact).

09-23-2002, 09:02 PM	#93
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	I am going to do my best to resist the urge to post here again but I will read the replies. I said my piece and if you still think you can "prove" who is best be my guest.

09-24-2002, 09:26 AM	#100
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	HR? Can you post a link to James's comments stating baseball is better than ever? __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby