Bah

[cgh3rd]

I think you can make the game extremely difficult to win if you play as a small market team, with a small stadium, with no salary cap and high dollar amount for cash. I don't play with house rules either but the setup allows you to make the game as tough as you want it to be.

I have tried to take all the best ideas on the board and implemented them into my setup with the new league I'm playing. In my first season I'm findng the game quite challenging staying around .500 after 2 World Series titles in a row in the previous setup I used.

As to your other points I also have bought games for similar reasons that you describe. I respect your opinion and statement on independant developers. I'm not at the point with OOTP to hold back my money. I have gone through similar types of responses with other games over the years.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Working to improve existing products does not generate a new source of cash flow.

It most definitely does. By supporting and improving an existing product you're telling and showing your customer base your dedication, support, and caring about their happiness. This in turn influences the customer in his decision to support future versions of the product.

Econimics is more than just releasing new versions to make more money, it's also about building a strong and satisfied customer base.

[sporr]

A human is always going to be able to beat the computer a majority of the time in a baseball sim, at least for the next many years. I mean, the best chess-playing computer AI can be beaten half the time by the best chess-playing human intelligence. And chess is a game that has a finite series of possible moves and calculations, even if there are a lot of them. The OOTP baseball universe has so many possible courses of action by a manager that calculating all of the potential outcomes and choosing a reasonable decision becomes very, very difficult to do.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by BruceM

It most definitely does. By supporting and improving an existing product you're telling and showing your customer base your dedication, support, and caring about their happiness. This in turn influences the customer in his decision to support future versions of the product.

Econimics is more than just releasing new versions to make more money, it's also about building a strong and satisfied customer base.

I believe Marcus HAS built a strong and satisfied customer base. Count me as one of them. The people who claim to be part of the base and then want to jump off a cliff at the first sign of problems do not constitute the base in my opinion. I'm not making accusations, just opining. : )

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by silvam14

I believe Marcus HAS built a strong and satisfied customer base. Count me as one of them. The people who claim to be part of the base and then want to jump off a cliff at the first sign of problems do not constitute the base in my opinion. I'm not making accusations, just opining. : )

That strong base, which btw if youhaven't noticed is showing some cracks around the edges, is a big reason why people buy new versions each release, which is exactly what my point was.

[jnshmoo]

I think Markus should stop developing OOTP because he can't please the fans of the game and he can't deliver on all of the most important issues and SI is just going to ruin the game. Everybody wants the same thing and Markus never delivers. Nobody is happy with the progress of OOTP. It's amazing he continues to work on coding this game when nobody buys it because it is just so god awful.

Every single one of these threads sound just like every person that calls the sports talk stations here in Detroit. Nevermind the fact that the Tigers were the WORST team in all of baseball last year. They came ONE game from breaking the record for worst performance EVER. Now they are 5 games back and close to .500 at the All-Star break. They've already won more games than they did all of last season. As far as I'm concerned, the Tigers have already been a huge success this season, yet all anyone can do is complain, complain, and complain some more. Why? Because they aren't completely dominating the league? Hell, even if they were, I bet people would still find something to complain about.

[phenom]

can someone pm me when a game is released bug-free, with all proposed inclusions, of any genre?

thanks.

...and don't tell me it's a tired response, because it's no more tired than the argument it's in response to. For every person who wants a new way, there's another who likes it how it is.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

I think Markus should stop developing OOTP because he can't please the fans of the game and he can't deliver on all of the most important issues and SI is just going to ruin the game. Everybody wants the same thing and Markus never delivers. Nobody is happy with the progress of OOTP. It's amazing he continues to work on coding this game when nobody buys it because it is just so god awful.

Every single one of these threads sound just like every person that calls the sports talk stations here in Detroit. Nevermind the fact that the Tigers were the WORST team in all of baseball last year. They came ONE game from breaking the record for worst performance EVER. Now they are 5 games back and close to .500 at the All-Star break. They've already won more games than they did all of last season. As far as I'm concerned, the Tigers have already been a huge success this season, yet all anyone can do is complain, complain, and complain some more. Why? Because they aren't completely dominating the league? Hell, even if they were, I bet people would still find something to complain about.

LOL, I'm a Red Sox fan in live in the Boston area. You think Detroit talk radio callers are irrational? Please come to Boston after every Red Sox loss. It borders on insane!

[Claybor]

I wasnt going to add anymore to this post, but I see a few posts above that completely misinterpret what I said. I am not ranting, I am just tired, I have been playing ootp now for close to 4 years and it seems like I am allways waiting for the next patch to fix this or the next update to improve that, and each time a new can of worms is opened. I would jujst like to see them give me what they offer, which in my opinion they have fallen short on in each and every case.

[Claybor]

"can someone pm me when a game is released bug-free, with all proposed inclusions, of any genre?"

Well, in this case, are you aware that ootp baseball has been out for years now, it isnt a new release.

[phenom]

who said "new"?

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Claybor

Well, in this case, are you aware that ootp baseball has been out for years now, it isnt a new release.

Sigh.... to say that OOTP2 or even V4 is the same game is grossly understating the truth. OOTP 6 is a giant leap forward when compared to the early releases - and to deny that is to assume they are the same game and helps create the dissatisfaction your claiming.

This discussion, and others like it, are ironic in a way. Here's what one would summarize from this one alone...

1. Stop all development on Version 7
2. Return to working on Version 6 until everything ever mentioned for the past 3-4 years is added or fixed.
3. When the game is 100% complete per the above description, then go back to V7.

Well, let's see... let me make a few guesses here.

To start, I suspect that would reverse the SI/OOTPD relationship. That would mean Markus would have to live on his bank account until V6 was "complete". I would also guess that V7 (whether done by him alone or done in concert with SI even IF they would take him back at that point) would be delayed until Spring of 2006. If he couldn't use the resources that SI has offered, he would be back to trying to figure out these enhancements on his own.

I think many here don't realize that Markus likely joined SI to improve the game as well as his ability to add all the things he has had difficulty with in the past. Add to that the ability to sell the game in retail outlets, increase sales, and thus have greater monetary resources to put toward the game and the SI move looks to be a reasonable gamble.

I don't know that for a fact - but it certainly makes sense, doesn't it? If so, the "break" from independent developer to part of a team had to be made at some point - and the resulting disruption of schedules and plans was an expected and unavoidable result.

In my world, things happen - even to big businesses. Things don't always go as planned - you can't always control things to your satisfaction. Reality bites sometimes, but there is no Utopian world - only the one we live in.

I have no doubt in my mind that the "final" version of OOTP6 will be better than what we have now, and no doubt that OOTP7 will be a huge step forward as well. I also believe V8 and V9, etc. will get better and better - unless Markus gets tired of it all and decides to do something else.

Based on his stated love for the game, and his willingness to join forces with SI and give up total control of his creation, I can't doubt his love for the game nor his intentions.

But we all have to eat, and that little requirement sometimes sets up some rules we don't like.

[Dan Theman]

Claybor, what people are responding to is not so much the content of your message as they are responding to the theme. It's your feelings, and you have the freedom to not be happy with OOTP. It's also your money, and you have the freedom to not purchase any products that you don't want. The extra bonus, living in a free (as in "liberty," not "cheap") country like we do, is that you get to tell us all about them. Bud Selig Bless America.

Anyway, I bought this game because I enjoy sports sims and I'm passionate about baseball. I heard it was great, saw it, figured everybody was right, and came to find that they were.

I've seen metaphors relating this game to everything from building a new home to buying a new car to a world history class. It's not. It's a video game. A $26 (for some of us) video game, and I treat it as such.

$26. Think about that for a minute:
*for $26, you could buy two movie tickets, two medium drinks, and one bucket of popcorn to share. That's a nice evening.
*for $26, you could go out to the bar on Friday night, get druk, tip a waitress who couldn't care less about you, and go home alone. Maybe not as nice of an evening, but perhaps a little more common for me.
*for $26, you could be halfway toward purchasing another video game that's half as fun. I've done that too many times.
*for $26, you could get one good seat and pay for parking at a real baseball game, sans hotdogs. I do that all the time (I'm a vegetarian, by the way).
*for $26, you could pay off my late fees at Blockbuster. They've been sitting there ever since I went to Netflix. By the way - I'd really appreciate it if you did.

What did I do with my $26? I bought a game that even with all of its fault has brought me countless hours of enjoyment. That's a much better value, if you ask me. Of course you didn't, but I'm telling you anyways

I can watch my Netflix movies at home, I can drink while doing it, I don't have to worry about installing a new game only to find that I'd prefer to be playing OOTP, I don't have to risk suicidal depression or psychopathic rage every night that the Indians' bullpen takes to the field, and I don't have to haggle late fees.

Now is this the life, or what?

- Dan

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Dan Theman

Claybor, what people are responding to is not so much the content of your message as they are responding to the theme. It's your feelings, and you have the freedom to not be happy with OOTP. It's also your money, and you have the freedom to not purchase any products that you don't want. The extra bonus, living in a free (as in "liberty," not "cheap") country like we do, is that you get to tell us all about them. Bud Selig Bless America.

Anyway, I bought this game because I enjoy sports sims and I'm passionate about baseball. I heard it was great, saw it, figured everybody was right, and came to find that they were.

I've seen metaphors relating this game to everything from building a new home to buying a new car to a world history class. It's not. It's a video game. A $26 (for some of us) video game, and I treat it as such.

$26. Think about that for a minute:
*for $26, you could buy two movie tickets, two medium drinks, and one bucket of popcorn to share. That's a nice evening.
*for $26, you could go out to the bar on Friday night, get druk, tip a waitress who couldn't care less about you, and go home alone. Maybe not as nice of an evening, but perhaps a little more common for me.
*for $26, you could be halfway toward purchasing another video game that's half as fun. I've done that too many times.
*for $26, you could get one good seat and pay for parking at a real baseball game, sans hotdogs. I do that all the time (I'm a vegetarian, by the way).
*for $26, you could pay off my late fees at Blockbuster. They've been sitting there ever since I went to Netflix. By the way - I'd really appreciate it if you did.

What did I do with my $26? I bought a game that even with all of its fault has brought me countless hours of enjoyment. That's a much better value, if you ask me. Of course you didn't, but I'm telling you anyways

I can watch my Netflix movies at home, I can drink while doing it, I don't have to worry about installing a new game only to find that I'd prefer to be playing OOTP, I don't have to risk suicidal depression or psychopathic rage every night that the Indians' bullpen takes to the field, and I don't have to haggle late fees.

Now is this the life, or what?

- Dan

I like your answer better

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Dan Theman

Claybor, what people are responding to is not so much the content of your message as they are responding to the theme. It's your feelings, and you have the freedom to not be happy with OOTP. It's also your money, and you have the freedom to not purchase any products that you don't want. The extra bonus, living in a free (as in "liberty," not "cheap") country like we do, is that you get to tell us all about them. Bud Selig Bless America.

Anyway, I bought this game because I enjoy sports sims and I'm passionate about baseball. I heard it was great, saw it, figured everybody was right, and came to find that they were.

I've seen metaphors relating this game to everything from building a new home to buying a new car to a world history class. It's not. It's a video game. A $26 (for some of us) video game, and I treat it as such.

$26. Think about that for a minute:
*for $26, you could buy two movie tickets, two medium drinks, and one bucket of popcorn to share. That's a nice evening.
*for $26, you could go out to the bar on Friday night, get druk, tip a waitress who couldn't care less about you, and go home alone. Maybe not as nice of an evening, but perhaps a little more common for me.
*for $26, you could be halfway toward purchasing another video game that's half as fun. I've done that too many times.
*for $26, you could get one good seat and pay for parking at a real baseball game, sans hotdogs. I do that all the time (I'm a vegetarian, by the way).
*for $26, you could pay off my late fees at Blockbuster. They've been sitting there ever since I went to Netflix. By the way - I'd really appreciate it if you did.

What did I do with my $26? I bought a game that even with all of its fault has brought me countless hours of enjoyment. That's a much better value, if you ask me. Of course you didn't, but I'm telling you anyways

I can watch my Netflix movies at home, I can drink while doing it, I don't have to worry about installing a new game only to find that I'd prefer to be playing OOTP, I don't have to risk suicidal depression or psychopathic rage every night that the Indians' bullpen takes to the field, and I don't have to haggle late fees.

Now is this the life, or what?

- Dan

And this is just another metaphor. The points being made here have nothing to do with the fact the game cost $26 or how many other things you can buy for $26. At what value do you draw the line? When does it no longer become a metaphor and mean something? Is it $100.00?, $1000.00?, $100000.00?

When people are led to believe one thing and given another, it doesn't matter if it cost $1.00 and if they don't like it they buy a chocolate bar instead.


Why is it that when only a few people are unhappy with something about this game, they aren't allowed to voice their concerns, or if they do, those concerns are downplayed. Yet when a lot of people voice a concern, then suddenly it's important.

That's like Markus saying yesterday only .05% are interested in H2H. So I guess we (the .05%) are unimportant to him. This is small comapny being slowly absorbed by big company philosophy. I ask Markus the same question I ask you, in different terms. At what % does it become important to you? At 10%?, at 25%?, at 50% or greater?

Sorry, but I made a legitimate inquiry in another thread along the same lines, and I feel insulted that Markus would respond with the "well it's only .05%" reply. I guess my $$$ are only in the .05% and don't matter to him.

That's fine, it's his business and he's free to do with it as he pleases, but in the future he'll be doing it without my .05% of the $$$.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Why is it that when only a few people are unhappy with something about this game, they aren't allowed to voice their concerns, or if they do, those concerns are downplayed. Yet when a lot of people voice a concern, then suddenly it's important.

That goes back to my comments on OOTP trying to be all things to all people, while Markus has a finite amount of time. I don't think Markus has any other choice but to adhere to the "squeakiest wheel gets the grease" philosophy. I've been asking for what I believe to be some fairly simple-to-implement interface improvements since OOTP3. They are logical, and when posted, no one has disagreed with any of them that I recall, but they're not in. I have to believe the reason isn't ease of implementation, but an issue of prioritization.

[jnshmoo]

Originally Posted by BruceM

When people are led to believe one thing and given another, it doesn't matter if it cost $1.00 and if they don't like it they buy a chocolate bar instead.

Quick. Get George Bush on the phone. We need to patch the war in Iraq right away. The American people were led to believe that Iraq had WMD. As it turns out, they appeared to have been MUCH more difficult to find than we originally expected back when the announcement was made. I guess we should have bought small nation instead.

[PistolPete]

The real thing here really turns out to be don't convert your league to V6, just start over with each new game LOL cause it's really been a mess for some leagues I've been in and I refuse to bring mine over till v6 has the bugs fixed.. which my guess is that will never happen. I'm pretty upset to hear V7 is in the works put some man power and get V6 fixed then get V7 going.
I still like ootp's product but damn can someone beta test this the right way??!!!

[Henry]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Why is it that when only a few people are unhappy with something about this game, they aren't allowed to voice their concerns, or if they do, those concerns are downplayed.

This is an interesting question. I don't see how you feel your not allowed to voice a concern. You certainly have done so. But is it wrong for those who don't agree (myself being one) to not be allowed to disagree with you? It's a two way street Bruce, it's supposed to be ok to disagree. Each side has the right, I believe, to express their opinions as well - and yes, even Markus may have an opnion on these issues.

Having said that, I don't think Markus is discounting the .05% group - just trying to manage priorities.

You've been vocal about how business should work, what if Ford had .05% of it's customer wanting a model with the driver's controls on the right side of the car. I would have to believe that would not be their #1 prioroty - even if they had said it's in the plans and they had "promised" it.

I'm just trying to point out that everyone's opnions are imprtant here - including those that disagree - but prioties must be set or else nothing gets done.

[Markus Heinsohn]

I count myself into the 0.5% group, so I obviously did not mean to be disrespectful towards the people who want H2H and are sad/disappointed that it's not in the game yet. But what I really do not understand at all, is to call the game 'incomplete' because of it... heck there are so many new things in OOTP 6, and almost all do work the way I wanted them to work... and the rest (salary report, some rare AI quirks etc.) will be solid soon.