2022-2023 NBA Season Thread

[Syd Thrift]

lmfao if you think calling MJ, the greatest player of our time, “black Jesus “ is divisive, perhaps you should try eating less paint

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

lmfao if you think calling MJ, the greatest player of our time, “black Jesus “ is divisive, perhaps you should try eating less paint

I think it's disrespectful, yes. You wouldn't call Larry Bird Jesus.(if he had Jordan's credentials).

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I think it's disrespectful, yes. You wouldn't call Larry Bird Jesus.(if he had Jordan's credentials).

MJ’s been called Black Jesus since 1987.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/...me-black-jesus

Also, if this is “disrespectful”, where’s your ire towards Ray Allen?

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

MJ’s been called Black Jesus since 1987.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/...me-black-jesus

Also, if this is “disrespectful”, where’s your ire towards Ray Allen?

I didn't say anything about Ray Allen.

[Déjà Bru]

Careful, guys. Steer it back to basketball if you can. The game, that is, not the politics or personalities. My fault, a bit, for mentioning LBJ's pronouncements.

[thehef]

Not sure if y'all caught it, but Dak Prescott was asked about the Jerry Jones thing, and IMO he gave both a very thoughtful, intelligent, and respectful answer. LeBron could take note... (But would then ignore i, as those qualities are not in his toolkit...)

Back to basketball... here's my pet peeve:

Let's say there's less than 24 seconds left on the game clock, but more than just a few seconds left. IOW, plenty of time, doesn't have to be a rushed heave or catch-and-shoot... Doesn't really matter which quarter, but the scenario I'll be referring to is especially true - and therefore, IMO, especially stupid - when it's 4th quarter and the the game is on the line...

The play is typically to give the ball to the team's alpha-male top scorer, and let him go one-on-one until - all too often - he simply jacks up a difficult/contested jumper, usually in the vicinity of the three-point line.

My question is: If that's the best "play" (it clearly is not), why not run it every single time down the court (occasionally giving it to alpha-male #2 or #3, depending upon who's on the court at the time)? Seems to me that it would make much more sense to actually run a play. You know, some ball movement, maybe screen or two, getting into the paint to get to the line or kick it out for an open jumper... I'd think that in these days of advanced analytics, they would trump the irrational need for many of these players to show that "I am the man" in crunch time. IMO, not recognizing that = choking in crunch time!

I'm not saying the smart plays never happen: they do. But the dumb alpha-male plays are all too common, IMO. And don't get me wrong: When it's on the line I absolutely want the ball in Steph's or Tatum's or Durant's or Giannis' hands. And any of those guys going one-on-one is certainly one of the options as the play evolves. But having an actual play to maximize the opportunity is what I'd like to see every time.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I didn't say anything about Ray Allen.

Exactly. Ray Allen was in the movie “He Got Game” when he was in college and was referred to by that character name, Jesus Shuttlesworth, throughout his playing career. You likely don’t remember it because you’re not looking for reasons to be offended by James.

Personally I don’t really care about him either way. I think he’s amazing to watch, or at least was 10 years ago, I think he was reasonably funny in Trainwreck, and… that’s about as far as it goes. Personally I give the Durantula a much longer leash, and this is a guy who’s just kind of shut up about Irving even though they’re current teammates (also Irving got Harden mad enough to leave, also Irving more or less got Nash, who was a KD pick, fired/to resign). I feel like a lot of this stuff has way less to do with a player being a good or bad spokesperson and way more to do with how you feel about what they do on court. For me, KD gets the pass because he’s a Supersonic. For others, LBJ gets an anti-pass because of The Decision or because he was the bad guy to those overpowered Warriors teams or because he joined the Yankees of the NBA, the LA Lakers (which, even as a Sonics fan, I loved to hate those guys but also just enjoyed them when they weren’t playing my guys).

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by thehef

Not sure if y'all caught it, but Dak Prescott was asked about the Jerry Jones thing, and IMO he gave both a very thoughtful, intelligent, and respectful answer. LeBron could take note... (But would then ignore i, as those qualities are not in his toolkit...)

Back to basketball... here's my pet peeve:

Let's say there's less than 24 seconds left on the game clock, but more than just a few seconds left. IOW, plenty of time, doesn't have to be a rushed heave or catch-and-shoot... Doesn't really matter which quarter, but the scenario I'll be referring to is especially true - and therefore, IMO, especially stupid - when it's 4th quarter and the the game is on the line...

The play is typically to give the ball to the team's alpha-male top scorer, and let him go one-on-one until - all too often - he simply jacks up a difficult/contested jumper, usually in the vicinity of the three-point line.

My question is: If that's the best "play" (it clearly is not), why not run it every single time down the court (occasionally giving it to alpha-male #2 or #3, depending upon who's on the court at the time)? Seems to me that it would make much more sense to actually run a play. You know, some ball movement, maybe screen or two, getting into the paint to get to the line or kick it out for an open jumper... I'd think that in these days of advanced analytics, they would trump the irrational need for many of these players to show that "I am the man" in crunch time. IMO, not recognizing that = choking in crunch time!

I'm not saying the smart plays never happen: they do. But the dumb alpha-male plays are all too common, IMO. And don't get me wrong: When it's on the line I absolutely want the ball in Steph's or Tatum's or Durant's or Giannis' hands. And any of those guys going one-on-one is certainly one of the options as the play evolves. But having an actual play to maximize the opportunity is what I'd like to see every time.

Um, that’s not how the NBA works anymore and hasn’t been for like 15 years. They still don’t run college style plays but everything nowadays is based on 2 man ball (pick and rolls, pick and pops, pick and fades), quick rotations, and, for some players, lots of movement off the ball. Gone are the days of spending 20 seconds trying to feed the ball into the post or to iso on one guy. If anything the Bulls - who I have season tickets to - run the iso to DDR as often as any team in the league and even then it’s only in very specific situations - the team needs a score, DeMar is having a good night, the other team isn’t going crazy double teaming him. More often, what happens in a play is something like this:

- the team (I’ll use the Bulls here) runs upcourt to try and catch a mismatch. If it breaks down, they go into their regular offense

- they toss it over to DeMar, who tries to make something happen for like *a* move. If he doesn’t actually get past his man, he guns it back out to, say, Ayo Dosunmu

- this year, Ayo has been taking that shot more often but still, usually he’ll pass it over to Zach or perhaps Vooch is sitting in the high post (which he’s been doing more often this year)

- those guys try *a* move and pass it out. You see this a lot - guy get the ball, drive a couple steps, and then pass it back out

- Much of the time, Vooch or Patrick will come over and set a screen for someone. If the defense doesn’t switch right, the shooter looks for the roller/pop man

- if DDR or Zach breaks past their guy, even then they’re looking at what space that created. Did a defender have to crash down off their man to defend them? They pass it back out and the team rotates the ball around the perimeter until they find the open man

- only with around 8 or fewer to shoot do they get it to DeMar or Zach and ask them to drive or shoot if they can’t get around their guy (DeRozan gets asked to do this a lot because he’s one of the best midrange shooters in 5e game - in fact, he’s basically old Kobe at this point - and he also, like Kobe, is really good at getting people to jump into him on his attempts)

It’s simply not the isoball that was played in the 90s and early 2000s. It’s also IMO way more exciting than the fist sets and so on that the league used in the 80s or for that matter the Phil Jackson triple post stuff. The current game rewards ball movement, good picks, and solid man to man defense at all levels.

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Exactly. Ray Allen was in the movie “He Got Game” when he was in college and was referred to by that character name, Jesus Shuttlesworth, throughout his playing career. You likely don’t remember it because you’re not looking for reasons to be offended by James.

Personally I don’t really care about him either way. I think he’s amazing to watch, or at least was 10 years ago, I think he was reasonably funny in Trainwreck, and… that’s about as far as it goes. Personally I give the Durantula a much longer leash, and this is a guy who’s just kind of shut up about Irving even though they’re current teammates (also Irving got Harden mad enough to leave, also Irving more or less got Nash, who was a KD pick, fired/to resign). I feel like a lot of this stuff has way less to do with a player being a good or bad spokesperson and way more to do with how you feel about what they do on court. For me, KD gets the pass because he’s a Supersonic. For others, LBJ gets an anti-pass because of The Decision or because he was the bad guy to those overpowered Warriors teams or because he joined the Yankees of the NBA, the LA Lakers (which, even as a Sonics fan, I loved to hate those guys but also just enjoyed them when they weren’t playing my guys).

I am also a Sonic fan actually, I grew up in Western Washington. I don't think KD has the greatest personality, but he's not obnoxious like James. I had never heard of Ray Allen's nickname. LBJ has no sense of humility, even though he has a losing record in NBA finals, and has no loyalty to any one team. He obviously has had better success on a historically poor franchise, the Cavs, then with the Lakers, a historically good franchise, and you would think this would tell him something, but it obviously doesn't. He reminds me of being a basketball version of Alex Rodriguez, minus the steroids.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Um, that’s not how the NBA works anymore and hasn’t been for like 15 years.

I'm only referring to (typically) the last possession, where the only "play" is to give it to your best player and let him try to create - without any involvement from his teammates - but more often than not it seems to be a difficult fadeaway. I'm not simply suggesting that teams should pound the ball until they can feed Jabbar for a skyhook And I have no problem with inbounding to Tatum or Durant and letting them do their one-on-one thing if they have a point guard or center attempting to guard them (or any other mismatch). I'm referring to plays with no mismatch, zero ball-movement, zero involvement with any of the other four offensive players, that essentially ends with a difficult shot. That's not typically what you run during the rest of the game, so why - other than hubris - is it SOP at the end of games?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Um, that’s not how the NBA works anymore and hasn’t been for like 15 years.... More often, what happens in a play is something like this:

- the team (I’ll use the Bulls here) ...

And ya, what you describe as to the options the Bulls would typically run through is what, IMO, should happen - time permitting - on the last possession of a game (with, perhaps, a bit more emphasis on your better scorers getting the touches). If it's good enough for 47 minutes, why not at the end?

And I'll also re-draw the distinction: If the best play is to give it to a star and let him actually create something - like put his guy through the ringer and get a good, in-rhythm jumper, a blow-by drive to the rim, a drive and kick-out, or a hard drive to the basket, I'm all for it. I'm mainly referring to the pounding of the ball for several seconds, a bit of jukin' & jivin', and then a long launch with the defender in your face... Not even an attempt to actually get a high-percentage shot.

[Syd Thrift]

The midrange shot is very specifically dying out. Like, very few people shoot that shot with a guy in their face or wide open anymore, whether it’s minute one or minute 48. People have even complained about this aspect of the game going away, as in “everyone shoots from 5 feet or 25 feet now”. So your scenario just plain doesn’t happen except with very specific players in very specific situations (ironically the Bulls have one of those guys in DeMar DeRozan, one of the last midrange shooters in the league - like I said, he’s basically old Kobe Bryant).

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The midrange shot is very specifically dying out. Like, very few people shoot that shot with a guy in their face or wide open anymore, whether it’s minute one or minute 48. People have even complained about this aspect of the game going away, as in “everyone shoots from 5 feet or 25 feet now”. So your scenario just plain doesn’t happen except with very specific players in very specific situations (ironically the Bulls have one of those guys in DeMar DeRozan, one of the last midrange shooters in the league - like I said, he’s basically old Kobe Bryant).

Again, I think you're missing my point. I'm not advocating specifically for a mid-range shot at the end of the game. Rather, I'm advocating working for a higher percentage shot - like teams typically do throughout the rest of the game - rather than settling for a long, contested, low-percentage launch. IOW, time-permitting, teams should run through their own version of your Bulls progression example.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by thehef

Again, I think you're missing my point. I'm not advocating specifically for a mid-range shot at the end of the game. Rather, I'm advocating working for a higher percentage shot - like teams typically do throughout the rest of the game - rather than settling for a long, contested, low-percentage launch. IOW, time-permitting, teams should run through their own version of your Bulls progression example.

Yes, and I'm saying that the scenarios you're describing are *extremely* rare in the modern NBA. Look, there are plenty of criticisms to be had - if, for instance, you enjoy post play, there's very little of it anymore and even post players like Joel Embiid and Giannis have to have range out beyond 3 land - but these are just plain not it. Practically the only guy in the league who consistently puts up long, contested midrange shots at any point in the game, early or late, is DeMar, and that's very, very specifically because he modeled his game after Kobe Bryant, who was an absolute assassin at still managing to hit those supposedly low-percentage shots.

If anything, there's a criticism out there that guys don't shoot from the midrange *enough* - it's a spot on the court like any other spot, and while it may be true that the tradeoff between the extra few percentage points you have to make a shot from 16 feet aren't worth the extra point you get if you shoot from 23, right now you're probably more likely to be left wide open from midrange than from 3. But - and again, I'm saying this as a person who watches a pretty decent amount of the last great midrange shooter left in the NBA - it's a dying art.

The other criticisms I see and which have some validity is that you just plain can't be physical the way you could in the 90s and early 2000s, like, for whatever reason that part of the game is pretty much gone now. Personally I think I prefer the finesse-based play but a *lot* of people who I think misremember the 90s in particular will complain about this (and I think in fairness to that, too, prior to last season there was this whole thing where guys like James Harden would kick out a leg when putting up a shot and draw a contact foul; however, the league did legislate that away). There are no longer bigs who sit in the post on offense or defense. The average height has actually gone down in the past 10 years by I think 3 inches because of this. There's no Shaq, obviously, but also no 7 foot stiff whose entire reason for being in the league was muscling up against Shaq, and on top of that there are no more intimidation shot blockers like Dikembe Mutombo or Theo Ratliff or Ben Wallace (or to go a little further back, Mark Eaton). If you enjoyed that style of play (admittedly I didn't and always kind of hated/sneered at those players) (OK that's not true... I liked the Rattler and Dikbo just fine; the guys I couldn't stand were those tall guys whose value in the league was pretty much entirely that they were very tall, guys like Jim McIlvaine and young Shawn Bradley (who did TBF round out his game as he got older) and Calvin Booth (who's now an executive)), you pretty much have to pull up old tape. Even bigs who have a solid offensive game like Bol Bol have to prove they can run up and down the court and many of those types (Tacko Fall is another example) are either barely in the league or in the G Leagues.

It's a very interesting and fun game to watch IMO. There are for sure issues with the way the game is played today. But those issues are categorically not the ones you're describing, which were the big issues in like 2005.

[Antonin]

It's nice in a way to see our Cavs on national TV tonight vs the Lakers, but I hope the analysts don't try to resurrect the old narrative about LeBron and the Cavs. They always show the one or two people who burned LeBron jerseys back when he left the first time and try to make it seem like there was a tsunami of hate and hysteria in Cleveland.

National analysts don't pay much attention to the Cavs these days, which is kind of sad because good things are happening here. If only we could stay healthy! But Allen is hurt, Love was hurt, Garland was hurt...

Our team is fun to watch and the players have bought in to the coach's ideas. On any given night, any of our guys can become a human highlight reel. Osman, Stevens, Levert... And of course our incredible guards Garland and Mitchell. There's no reason why we can't go deep into the playoffs this season.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Antonin

It's nice in a way to see our Cavs on national TV tonight vs the Lakers, but I hope the analysts don't try to resurrect the old narrative about LeBron and the Cavs. They always show the one or two people who burned LeBron jerseys back when he left the first time and try to make it seem like there was a tsunami of hate and hysteria in Cleveland.

National analysts don't pay much attention to the Cavs these days, which is kind of sad because good things are happening here. If only we could stay healthy! But Allen is hurt, Love was hurt, Garland was hurt...

Our team is fun to watch and the players have bought in to the coach's ideas. On any given night, any of our guys can become a human highlight reel. Osman, Stevens, Levert... And of course our incredible guards Garland and Mitchell. There's no reason why we can't go deep into the playoffs this season.

I'm going to see if I can catch that game. You ought to know: How have Cav fans greeted LBJ recently?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

...I'm saying that the scenarios you're describing are *extremely* rare in the modern NBA....

Recently I saw Jason Tatum do it twice in the span of a few games (I'm a big Tatum fan, btw, so I'm not singling him out). Then shortly thereafter, someone else did it on national TV and on the postgame show the talking heads were voicing my same complaint... And it just pretty much happened at the end of the 1st quarter of the Cavs/Lakers game. Although it wasn't the last shot, it was LA's last shot, about 30 seconds left, so LeBron ran the clock down and - at least somebody set screen for him - but James' subsequent 3-point shot was not what I call being of the high-percentage variety. IOW, it was not anything close to attempting to work for the best shot. (This is not a textbook example of my complaint, but it's timely )

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I'm going to see if I can catch that game. You ought to know: How have Cav fans greeted LBJ recently?

The broadcast didn't really show any of the pregame events, aside from an interview with Darius Garland while he was practicing his shot. But they did say there was a video tribute to LeBron, and they showed people standing and applauding and LeBron waving his thanks.

He still has a great deal of support and love here. He was, after all, central to one of the most exciting and uplifting Cleveland sports events of the last 50 years. After he returned and led us to the championship, I think almost all the bad feeling went away.

When the Lakers play here the fans boo, as they should boo any opponent. But when LeBron does something spectacular there are plenty of "oooohhhh" and "ahhhhh". And when they play here you see plenty of No. 23 and No. 6 jerseys in the crowd.

No matter where he goes he will always be a son of Akron, Ohio, right down the road, and an adopted son of Cleveland.

It was a great game tonight. I think the Cavs really wanted to put on a demonstration for the visitors and the country. I think Mitchell and Allen in particular wanted to take it over.

I always wonder what the players say to each other before and after a game. I didn't see local broadcaster Austin Carr, but I'm sure he was there. Carr was the first and, until LeBron was drafted, greatest Cavs superstar, and I know they've talked a lot over the years.

During the game I noticed LeBron saying something to Allen after a Lakers basket. He's a well known trash-talker. Whatever it was, Allen just ignored it and kept on keeping on.

Our Cavs looked good tonight! The slogan this year is "Let 'em Know." I guess they did that on national TV tonight.

I had to laugh at Kenny Smith's comment about Cleveland having "no vacation spots." I guess five star hotels, five star restaurants, a world-renowned orchestra, a world class art museum, an extensive park system, three major league sports teams and even a beach are not enough for him.

I usually take what Charles Barkley says with a grain of salt, but when he described Cleveland as a greatly underrated city I have to say he was right on the money.

[Déjà Bru]

Thanks. I guess 1) how you leave and 2) what you accomplished while you were there make all the difference. Contrast this with Ben Simmons and Philadelphia.

You neglected to mention that, in addition to looking good, the Cavs won a glorious victory over the Lakers, 116-102. The ESPN headline was "Mitchell upstages LeBron at home."

Back in my Knicks fanhood purgatory, I would have been bitter about how Cleveland swooped in to claim Donovan Mitchell, snatching him from the jaws of New York. The Knicks and their fans really thought they were going to get him from the Jazz.

Now, though, I am "Que sera, sera."

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Thanks. I guess 1) how you leave and 2) what you accomplished while you were there make all the difference. Contrast this with Ben Simmons and Philadelphia.

You neglected to mention that, in addition to looking good, the Cavs won a glorious victory over the Lakers, 116-102. The ESPN headline was "Mitchell upstages LeBron at home."

Back in my Knicks fanhood purgatory, I would have been bitter about how Cleveland swooped in to claim Donovan Mitchell, snatching him from the jaws of New York. The Knicks and their fans really thought they were going to get him from the Jazz.

Now, though, I am "Que sera, sera."

Well, the way LeBron handled his return to the Cavs was a real masterpiece of public relations. It was one of those "I'll always remember where I was when..." moments. For a couple years during his first go-round in Cle I was working at a bookstore between careers, and LeBron's mom used to come in to buy stuff at the in-store coffee shop. She was not the nicest person in the world. But I guess if I had grown up in grinding poverty and then produced a son who became one of the greatest and richest athletes in the world, I would be a bit arrogant too.

The victory over the Lakers was pretty neat, but I noticed that neither LeBron nor Davis played in the following game in Toronto. Maybe LeBron spent the night after our game at his mansion near Akron, putting Biofreeze all over his body. He always tries to give a special effort when his Lakers play us. I saw that Anthony Davis had to leave the game early with "flu-like symptoms." I hope it was not COVID. My mother died from that disease and I would not wish it upon anyone.

The analysts for our game against the Lakers got some things right and some things wrong. It's true that people here wondered if Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland would "be able to co-exist" because "both of them need the ball." But from the moment Mitchell arrived it was clear that he was only interested in 1) winning, and 2) fitting in so that the team could have more of item 1. He and Garland can both "create their own shot," but each is very willing to pass to the other and to their teammates. When one is hot, the other defers to him as far as shooting is concerned. There has never been any hint of ball-hogging--quite unlike the situation when LeBron was here.

Ricky Rubio played with Mitchell in Utah and was really happy when we got him. I'm sure he explained to Mitchell what the situation is in Cleveland. Mitchell seems to have bought into it completely.

NBA players like to talk about the dominant player on a team as "the head of the snake," but in Cle we really have a 2-headed snake. And, actually, we have some plays where Caris LeVert or Cedi Osman bring the ball up the court. LeVert was brought here as a scorer, but the coach made it clear to him that since we now have plenty of top class scorers, his minutes this season will depend on his willingness to play defense.

It's a great bunch of guys. Kevin Love and Rubio provide veteran leadership. Love looks and sounds in interviews like he is having more fun now than at any other time in his career. One of the coolest things when watching a Cavs game is to see Love grab a rebound and pass the ball the length of the court with pinpoint accuracy to Osman, who is always the first guy running back, for an easy layup.

We have a very entertaining team.