OOTP and the competition

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

The next version will be OOTP10. Markus needs to get the basic plays of baseball in the game after this many versions. They are long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long overdue.

OOTP10 needs to be the catch-up version where everything wrong and missing is finally fixed, made right and added. That's a long list, and it will take a full version's efforts to implement.

I am quite sure that instead we will get a new crop of shiny objects, which many here will inevitably adore ("Ooh, shiny!"), while the long-overdue matters remain long overdue.

[Tony M]

I know this isn't an area that people care two figs about, but there was a vast improvement in the underlying database from 6.5 to OOTP2006, but it's still not perfect. It's a mish-mash of relational-style and object-style, with tables having variable sized subtables and fixed size subtables, etc.

Shoring up the foundations would be a solid block on which to build/repair those areas that are a bit wobbly.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by RonCo

So, yeah, I agree with everything Syd said. we've got lots of things today--probably 1,000 features. But a lot of those features are what I will call skin-deep because either they've been "smudged" due to time or architecture constraints, or because they just flat out don't work (Simple things like: if i move my fences in, it doesn't change the results engine--just to pick one of many at random. These things are really pretty strange to me, but don't seem to phase many others).

Please don't tell me ballpark factors don't work.

I just spent three days reworking ballpark ratings to fit the dimensions, hoping that more runs would be scored in smaller parks and less runs in the larger parks. That's for 64 stadiums. I even made sure all of the factors equalled 1.000 for the entire league in all categories.

Say it ain't so, Joe.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, it's not realistic to ask Markus to take another year off or to add nothing new in this year's version to attract new customers. The advantage to the small developer, as has been stated here earlier, is that he can survive with a smaller profit margin than a larger developer would need to continue to justify a title. The downside is, that margin represents food on his table and a happy (well, satisfied, at least) landlord. Unless somebody's got an extra $50 grand laying around, I don't see how either of the above notions are feasible.

Of course, you can always take the tack of being Joe Consumer and moving to whichever game is going to satisfy you the most. OOTP has a huge lead on everything else, but you could always spend 2 or 3 years kicking Shawn's rear in beta to get his game up to snuff (and hoping he doesn't quit again) (not a knock against Mr. Sullivan; few small-dev games give up new versions as often as OOTP does, and likewise few small developers are able to support themselves on nothing but the game the way Markus has been able to). As always, the option is yours.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Please don't tell me ballpark factors don't work.

I just spent three days reworking ballpark ratings to fit the dimensions, hoping that more runs would be scored in smaller parks and less runs in the larger parks. That's for 64 stadiums. I even made sure all of the factors equalled 1.000 for the entire league in all categories.

Say it ain't so, Joe.

The factors themselves work (at least as long as you don't pull them down below .800 or so or above 1.5 or so), it's the dimensions themselves that get a little bit knotty. You can put together the Polo Grounds, for example, and see guys hit 400 foot homeruns to dead center.

ETA: Actually, that's not even what RonCo's saying. He's saying that if you set up a huge ballpark and give it factors of 1.000 all around and then pull in the fences, you'll still have factors of 1.000 all around. Honestly, I'm not sure how to prevent that. Fences are just one of many aspects of why hitters hit more HRs and so on in some parks than in others.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Please don't tell me ballpark factors don't work.

I just spent three days reworking ballpark ratings to fit the dimensions, hoping that more runs would be scored in smaller parks and less runs in the larger parks. That's for 64 stadiums. I even made sure all of the factors equalled 1.000 for the entire league in all categories.

Say it ain't so, Joe.

The ballpark factors work, I believe (but I can't speak for RonCo) that he means if you change the distances of the fence, they affect nothing (except PBP). For example, if your fences are 400 feet away or if your fences are 300 feet away, it doesn't affect the generated result (which is sort of illogical). It only affects how the PBP reads. If a homerun is called for, it looks to those dimensions to generate the ball travelled 424 feet, or the ball travelled 324 feet.

At least I think that's what he was talking about. Your changes to ballpark factors do affect the outcomes. Should be no worries there.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

The ballpark factors work, I believe (but I can't speak for RonCo) that he means if you change the distances of the fence, they affect nothing (except PBP). For example, if your fences are 400 feet away or if your fences are 300 feet away, it doesn't affect the generated result (which is sort of illogical). It only affects how the PBP reads. If a homerun is called for, it looks to those dimensions to generate the ball travelled 424 feet, or the ball travelled 324 feet.

At least I think that's what he was talking about. Your changes to ballpark factors do affect the outcomes. Should be no worries there.

Thanks for the info.

I feel much better now.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The factors themselves work (at least as long as you don't pull them down below .800 or so or above 1.5 or so), it's the dimensions themselves that get a little bit knotty. You can put together the Polo Grounds, for example, and see guys hit 400 foot homeruns to dead center.

ETA: Actually, that's not even what RonCo's saying. He's saying that if you set up a huge ballpark and give it factors of 1.000 all around and then pull in the fences, you'll still have factors of 1.000 all around. Honestly, I'm not sure how to prevent that. Fences are just one of many aspects of why hitters hit more HRs and so on in some parks than in others.

Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't waste my time on something cosmetic.

Thanks for the ranges. I pretty much stayed within .800 and 1.500.

Just a few below that range and a few above. I will go back and keep them within .800 and 1.500.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

This is not meant to be a "Bash Markus" post. It is meant only to nudge and rouse him to communicate more with his Beta Team. He is a great computer programmer and has given us a wonderful baseball game beyond my wildest dreams and I wholeheartedly thank him for it from the bottom of my heart, but he really needs to improve in communication and direction.

I, too, missed Steve's wonderful organizational skills last year. We had no direction last year on the Text Team, and rightly so - he is a parttime employee - and the job requires someone fulltime. It was up to us to do what we could with what we had. Fortunately we used the time to perfect the text. But once we did that we just sat around asking for directions from Markus. Very few came.

If you recall, Eugene, we were often reminded during beta testing that we should not expect Markus to keep up to date with all the posts on the message boards. The reason: he's too busy coding. Well, I would venture to guess that Markus seldom reads the message boards even when he is not busy coding. I noticed your post on the beta board a little while ago. It was directed specifically to Markus (as indicated in the thread title). Three months later, he still has not responded. Likewise, we discuss all kinds of (relatively) important OOTP issues on the regular boards. How often do we hear from Markus? I'll bet he has little to no idea what's important to us at the moment. That - together with the fact that Markus probably knows already what he plans to do with OOTP10 -- suggests that Markus takes very little of our input into consideration. It is what it is, I guess.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

If you recall, Eugene, we were often reminded during beta testing that we should not expect Markus to keep up to date with all the posts on the message boards. The reason: he's too busy coding. Well, I would venture to guess that Markus seldom reads the message boards even when he is not busy coding. I noticed your post on the beta board a little while ago. It was directed specifically to Markus (as indicated in the thread title). Three months later, he still has not responded. Likewise, we discuss all kinds of (relatively) important OOTP issues on the regular boards. How often do we hear from Markus? I'll bet he has little to no idea what's important to us at the moment. That - together with the fact that Markus probably knows already what he plans to do with OOTP10 -- suggests that Markus takes very little of our input into consideration. It is what it is, I guess.

That's very disheartening coming from a couple of guys who would do anything to make this game better,its a shame too because this really is a fantastic game that with a little more cooperation from the man in charge could be something really really special.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

That - together with the fact that Markus probably knows already what he plans to do with OOTP10 -- suggests that Markus takes very little of our input into consideration. It is what it is, I guess.

That's true and it's not. Would player development come even close to matching Tango progressions if not for RonCo's work? Would historical stats output hew so close to what really happened if not for Garlon's work? Would we have so flexible a playoff customization system if not for Le Grand Orange's work? Would the play by play and news stories be even readable if not for the fabulous work of Eugene, tysok, you and others on the text team? I think Markus often makes use of the contributions of experts in our community, and in that way, the community has shaped the game. If the aforementioned and others had instead been playing a sim croquet game and we had had different areas of expertise represented here, the game would be much different (it would be interesting to know what the game would look like now if instead we had had a mascot expert, a concession stand expert, and a groundskeeping expert among us).

And I have no problem with that - were I in his position, I'd take advantage of any specialized knowledge or skills in the community. That to me is more important than reading the generalized stuff on the forums. And these days, I'm not surprised he doesn't spend much time here.

[Syd Thrift]

I think he does take a lot of what people say into consideration, but this is probably the wrong time to say what should be put into the game. From what little tiny bit of programming I've done, I can say that it's a largely creative exercise. You have things you want to implement, you take some time to figure out how you'll get them done, and then you try out your ideas to see if you can make them work. Once the planning begins, it's tough to bring in new stuff unless it's really easy to implement, and even then it'll take time and focus away from the main project.

Not to sound like a Markus apologist (although I guess my prior posts make me look like even more of one), but I'm not sure that the fact that the lone programmer on a project isn't actively soliciting feedback while he's actually working on the alpha stages of the project is reason to get down. Let's wait to see what he comes up with to say that it isn't good enough.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by injury log

And I have no problem with that - were I in his position, I'd take advantage of any specialized knowledge or skills in the community. That to me is more important than reading the generalized stuff on the forums. And these days, I'm not surprised he doesn't spend much time here.

That's an interesting phrase -- "take advantage of." I hate to say it, but I think Markus has taken advantage of people in the best sense of the term . . . and the worst. Case in point: Eugene's post on the beta board. Three months have gone by with no reply from Markus. Why? Eugene has busted his butt to improve the news stories (and, to a lesser extent, the PbP) in OOTP -- all with little help from Markus. What does he get for it? Nothing. Markus just blows him off. It's hard not to feel insulted, even if Markus never meant to. (Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case.)

[endgame]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

IMHO, Steve needs to be much more involved and available than last year. I hope his schedule will permit him to.

Originally Posted by endgame

I'll reserve comment beyond adding that his involvement and availability in the forums themselves would add back a missing dimension.

I'll piggy-back a bit on these last few comments first with the exchange above. Beyond that, Steve was - at least it was my original impression - supposed to be the the point man, literally, that pointed Markus and Andreas to issues and comments in the forums if they were deemed worth immediate attention. Of course, that's another catch-22 as in asking Steve to fulfill that role means we, in turn, have to turn our attention toward the task of making it important to Steve, which these days is akin to tickling bones with the idea that somehow you can make them dance.

[The Wolf]

I was going to post something really embittered and cynical here, but you have all beaten me to the punch.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by injury log

That's true and it's not. Would player development come even close to matching Tango progressions if not for RonCo's work? Would historical stats output hew so close to what really happened if not for Garlon's work? Would we have so flexible a playoff customization system if not for Le Grand Orange's work? Would the play by play and news stories be even readable if not for the fabulous work of Eugene, tysok, you and others on the text team? I think Markus often makes use of the contributions of experts in our community, and in that way, the community has shaped the game. If the aforementioned and others had instead been playing a sim croquet game and we had had different areas of expertise represented here, the game would be much different (it would be interesting to know what the game would look like now if instead we had had a mascot expert, a concession stand expert, and a groundskeeping expert among us).

And I have no problem with that - were I in his position, I'd take advantage of any specialized knowledge or skills in the community. That to me is more important than reading the generalized stuff on the forums. And these days, I'm not surprised he doesn't spend much time here.

Reading this post has really been an eye opener for me,I had no idea that the community was so heavily involved in making OOTP what it is today.As a new member here,I feel as though that type of dedication to making the game better should be something that I should be striving to do as well rather than bellyaching about the things that I don't like.With that said,I'd like to apologize to anyone here who has been put off by anything I may have written,it won't happen again.Secondly,from this day forward,I will do whatever I can to help this game be the best it can be.My hope is that I'm chosen for beta,that way I can see how things get done and then from there move forward.I really feel that I have something to add to this game and this community other than complaints,hopefully I get the chance to show it.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever;2656371 "doctored by endgame"

Reading this post has really been an eye opener for me, I had no idea that the community was so heavily involved in making OOTP what it is today...bellyaching about...things

Phillie, your original post is admirable and I hope you are chosen to provide your input and inject your optimism into the process behind the scenes. It isn't always pretty. However, don't abandon your willingess to be critical. My rather large and blatant distortion of your original quote is not, however, as far from the truth as you may imagine.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

He's probably referring to Visual Concepts' game.

Trying to answer for RonCo is the original Losers' Game, but I'll take a shot here: I believe he wasn't referring to any particular game now in production or in development, but to some theoretical game now brewing in the imagination of some bored baseball fanatic/computer science major who's sitting in front of his monitor thinking, "I can do a better job than this."

Originally Posted by pstrickert

That's an interesting phrase -- "take advantage of." I hate to say it, but I think Markus has taken advantage of people in the best sense of the term . . . and the worst.

'Exploitation' was considered a GOOD thing until the post-WWII era. Countries/companies that were good at exploitation were admired and respected because they got the most out of the resources available to them… or to the people they were exploiting.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

That's an interesting phrase -- "take advantage of." I hate to say it, but I think Markus has taken advantage of people in the best sense of the term . . . and the worst. Case in point: Eugene's post on the beta board. Three months have gone by with no reply from Markus. Why? Eugene has busted his butt to improve the news stories (and, to a lesser extent, the PbP) in OOTP -- all with little help from Markus. What does he get for it? Nothing. Markus just blows him off. It's hard not to feel insulted, even if Markus never meant to. (Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case.)

No, my friend, what you are saying is a bit too harsh. I got a lot from Markus. I got a great baseball game for my efforts and the efforts of many Betas like you and others on the Beta Team. I never regret the time I spent the last three years working on the News and PBP. The time was well spent and worth it. Not tooting my own horn, but the game is better. However it could be much better with a little more direction and interest from Markus. Perhaps all of the various Beta Teams could also put forth the same argument for their favorite part of the game.

There is no way Markus can read everything on the forums, but you are correct when you say he could check the Beta Forum and respond more often. He has listened to me on several occasions. Markus surprised me with players stats like we had in V6.51 in the PBP right at the end of Beta. That was great and seemed to be added in a very short time. I just wish we could have written it and perfected before it went in to the game. My experience with Markus over the past three Betas is he quickly does things and doesn't perfect them as far as text is concerned. That's why I believe he could spend two weeks with with the Text Text and really hone in on the PBP, expand the Hard-Code PBP and really perfect the PBP.

Lack of response from Markus is frustrating. I don't understand why he can't reply to a question after three months on the Beta Forum. I can understand why he doesn't reply here on the other forums. It is just too much material to cover. I would rather him be spending time coding and dealing with the Beta Team.

Over the past six years I have asked Markus to post regular progress reports here on the forum and on the Beta Forums. A monthly report would be great. A three-month report would be acceptable and adequate, too.

Just please communicate more.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Curtis

Trying to answer for RonCo is the original Losers' Game, but I'll take a shot here: I believe he wasn't referring to any particular game now in production or in development, but to some theoretical game now brewing in the imagination of some bored baseball fanatic/computer science major who's sitting in front of his monitor thinking, "I can do a better job than this."

I wish someone would do that for American Football. I can just about write a program to generate Quarterback stats based on 3 or 4 ratings, but that's as far as it goes...