Early OOTP10 suggestions

[kagnew35]

See a lot of personnal wishes, some worthy, some very small niche. What I want is an easier interface, solid working of current features, simple printing of any and all roster pages, without need for "open in external browser". copy and paste in many areas, quicker response to clicks on tabs, easy way to adjust minor lg rosters, ie, mass moves, a system of just inputting real life stats to determine ratings, with an import function from lahman or an encyclopedia. Basically tighten up the nuts and bolts. Let Markus determine the new toys as he finds time. Love the "newspaper" suggestion, been asking for that for a while now. And Markus, better hurry on these, I'm 73

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The question, of course, is: will Markus realise this?

If he does some database re-organising and re-structuring, things like this should be much easier to do. So many of the structures are double-keyed at the moment - games for example have both the teams and league id's despite the fact that teams have league id's, and this effectively prevents games being played between different leagues and having it appear everywhere it should.

I have split the MLB into two separate leagues AL and NL and kept the schedule as is and you only see the interleague games in the home league's schedule screen. Game still seemed to function. Could even change the waiver rules between them as well.

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

European baseball leagues have women? Byes?

Thats not what I meant. I meant that in order for the game to continue to branch out with new features it needs to also keep improving its base.

I agree with you otherwise. I play purely fictional with a few MLB-like leagues and a few wildly different ones. I'd love to have those extra features but am willing to wait for them too.

[Sdpm100]

If we're going to have a world universe then ties and byes are pretty much needed. In fact they should have been in from OOTP2006.
Related to this is the fact you can have Spring Training games lasting 20+ innings which is pretty silly.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

lol the WBC was practically a miserable failure. noone seemed to even care much about it at all. managers didnt want their players to be playing. seemed to be a lot of problems with that competition IRL.

but it would be fun to see an international competition somewhere along those lines for sure

Originally Posted by Carplos

...how do you figure that? It was considered a success by pretty much everyone. Even ESPN was pleasantly surprised by the interest.

Indeed. Didn't Cuba (I think it was) want to have it every two years?

[jasonntn]

I'm a little late to this discussion. But I would have to agree with others that the basic simulation of MLB-like baseball should be the priority for current developement. I actually never play with perfectly MLB rules as I consider it to be the poorest run major sports league in the US. Having DHs in half of the league and not the other, along with allowing a meaningless exhibition game in July determine home field advantage for the championship series of the league simply make that point. However, I do play OOTP and try to simulate what a *better* MLB would be. And without perfecting the simulation first everything else becomes irrelevant.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Any chance of you releasing the playoff document to the public?

I don't see any reason why I couldn't, and the feedback would probably be helpful in refining and improving the concept. I should check first with the guys to make sure it's okay.

Just a note: though it's thirty pages, about half of that total is taken up with screenshots which illustrate the system and demonstrate lots of examples.

Originally Posted by Tony M

I have split the MLB into two separate leagues AL and NL and kept the schedule as is and you only see the interleague games in the home league's schedule screen. Game still seemed to function. Could even change the waiver rules between them as well.

How did you do that exactly? Did just the interleague games count in the standings, or did all the games get played?

Interestingly, the schedule files themselves only have a team ID and no league ID entry. I would think that, certainly for ease-of-creation issues, having a field for league ID would be quite helpful if full interaction between separate leagues is to be implemented.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by ttsec

I'm adding another vote for female players.

Perhaps even have limit female/male players for mixed leagues, much like the current foreign players limit.

In my multiple years of playing in mixed-gender leagues, I've never seen a woman play catcher or attempt to play catcher. In fact, every woman in the leagues have been 1B.

The Wolf needs to get out more; MLB isn't the only baseball in the world. The motto of the game is "It's your game, play it your way!" Therefore, to work on the main game would be adding more features, options, and customization, and to consider those a waste of time would be going against the very heart and soul of the game.

A female only league with some 'custom' pics? Could it get any better??

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by jasonntn

I'm a little late to this discussion. But I would have to agree with others that the basic simulation of MLB-like baseball should be the priority for current developement. I actually never play with perfectly MLB rules as I consider it to be the poorest run major sports league in the US. Having DHs in half of the league and not the other, along with allowing a meaningless exhibition game in July determine home field advantage for the championship series of the league simply make that point. However, I do play OOTP and try to simulate what a *better* MLB would be. And without perfecting the simulation first everything else becomes irrelevant.

I agree with you that the absolute core, what should be the priority every year is to try and improve on the simulation engine. It's pretty damn good as it is, but there are still some flaws (pitching comes to mind). In any case, that's what every single league has in common, whether it's strict MLB, a 19th ccentury simulation, a hobbit league or whatever.

What I don't understand about your post is how that's "MLB-like" baseball. Baseball is baseball, it's the same physics and the same abilities whether you're playing in MLB, in Japan, in Montenegro, in a pee wee league or whatever you're playing. I don't see how the sim engine should differ from MLB to other leagues.

Whatis more litigious, though, is whether OOTP should try to implement features like full 2008 minor leagues or correct minor league ballpark dimensions or the exact tie-breaking procedures at the end of the year, as opposed to new customization features like playoff byes, relegation, etc. None of these things have anything to do with the quality of the simulation. Basically, the debate is, and I think even The Wolf would agree, about whether OOTP should be a vessel for accurate MLB replay, or if it should be a baseball sandbox as customizable as possible.

[mattshwink]

Originally Posted by jasonntn

However, I do play OOTP and try to simulate what a *better* MLB would be. And without perfecting the simulation first everything else becomes irrelevant.

What is a "perfect" simulation though? What specifically would you like to see improved? And why does the game become irrelevant if it doesn't include MLB (many previous versions did not)? I have no idea the number of MLB simmers vs historical simmers vs fictional simmers (I myself fall into all categories!) but I would suspect that an equal number of people could care less about MLB then do care about it. So if that is the case not perfecting the MLB simulation would make the game irrelevant for those who care about MLB, but not the others.

I think OOTP does a pretty good job of emulating MLB (not that some things couldn't use some tweaking). Not only does it emulate modern MLB fairly well, but it emulates every era of MLB (and from the posts I've seen, historical simming is greatly improved over previous versions).

It does require tweaking. But a lot of this is up to what you like. Want as close an approximation to MLB as possible? Tweak the engine. Want to emulate an earlier era? Tweak the engine.

That's the great thing about OOTP, and the thing that has influenced my decision to purchase multiple versions (my first was OOTP 5). I always make some settings adjustments. And with a great community, there is some very good advice out there on how to do this.

If you are interested in how close to "perfect" the simulation is I would suggest looking at some of the stuff RonCo and Skydog have put together (even though most of their work is fictional related). It really gives some insight into how the engine works and how it compares to MLB.

RonCo's thread is here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...modifiers.html

His study his posted here, and has an outstanding statistical analysis of the game engine and statistics. He also proposes some settings to make it better.
http://www.typosphere.com/Age_and_De..._Modifiers.pdf

Even these adjustments don't make it perfect. But perfect is impossible to achieve.

I have seen this game improve over the years (albeit with a detour or two along the way). I look forward to seeing it evolve over (hopefully) many more years to come. I have seen how fan input has changed the game (even in the latest patch). So by all means, make some concrete suggestions on improving simulation. Just keep in mind that perfection is not achievable

Matt

[jdew]

Women in a men's professional baseball league could never happen, would never work out? Really?

Ever hear of Mamie "Peanut" Johnson?

In case you haven't.....

Played professional baseball on a men's professional baseball team 1953-1955. Right handed pitcher who's record was 33-8; batted .262 to .284. Not too shabby. Of course, she played in the Negro League. But then so did Josh Gibson, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, Monte Irvin, Martin Dihigo, Larry Doby, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell and a whole lot of other pretty decent ballplayers, some of whom never played a day for an MLB team.

You could look it up:

Johnson, Mamie 'Peanut' - Negro League Female Athlete



Should it happen in OOTP? I don't really care. Its Markus' product to do what he wants with. He hasn't done such a bad job so far, so I'll go with whatever he decides.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I don't see any reason why I couldn't, and the feedback would probably be helpful in refining and improving the concept. I should check first with the guys to make sure it's okay.

I don't see that it would be a problem, since you wrote the document, but obviously it's best to check.

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

Basically, the debate is, and I think even The Wolf would agree, about whether OOTP should be a vessel for accurate MLB replay, or if it should be a baseball sandbox as customizable as possible.

Why couldn't it be both?

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Why couldn't it be both?

I don't know.

[Mattymo]

Originally Posted by mattshwink

What is a "perfect" simulation though? What specifically would you like to see improved? And why does the game become irrelevant if it doesn't include MLB (many previous versions did not)? I have no idea the number of MLB simmers vs historical simmers vs fictional simmers (I myself fall into all categories!) but I would suspect that an equal number of people could care less about MLB then do care about it. So if that is the case not perfecting the MLB simulation would make the game irrelevant for those who care about MLB, but not the others.

Matt

I would say that, across the board, probably half of OOTP subscribers are MLB simmers. Remember that probably 5% of OOTP users post on these boards and probably 90% are from the United States.

Markus wants to make as much $$ is possible (no I'm not saying that his only priority, or even his main priority) so he's going to market it towards the masses. The masses don't want the quirky things some people on these boards want.

But I think the poster meant perfecting the AI, not necessarily perfecting the game. I could be wrong though.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by jdew

Women in a men's professional baseball league could never happen, would never work out? Really?

Ever hear of Mamie "Peanut" Johnson?

In case you haven't.....

Played professional baseball on a men's professional baseball team 1953-1955. Right handed pitcher who's record was 33-8; batted .262 to .284. Not too shabby. Of course, she played in the Negro League. But then so did Josh Gibson, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, Monte Irvin, Martin Dihigo, Larry Doby, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell and a whole lot of other pretty decent ballplayers, some of whom never played a day for an MLB team.

You could look it up:

Johnson, Mamie 'Peanut' - Negro League Female Athlete

Cool. I never knew about that.

As far as I can tell, there isn't any rule against it in any mordern league either, but there has never been a woman good enough to test it.

[mattshwink]

Originally Posted by Mattymo

I would say that, across the board, probably half of OOTP subscribers are MLB simmers. Remember that probably 5% of OOTP users post on these boards and probably 90% are from the United States.

Markus wants to make as much $$ is possible (no I'm not saying that his only priority, or even his main priority) so he's going to market it towards the masses. The masses don't want the quirky things some people on these boards want.

But I think the poster meant perfecting the AI, not necessarily perfecting the game. I could be wrong though.

Then the RonCo and SkyDog stuff applies...really good reading (if you like that kind of thing, and I do). But RonCo's analysis states that things are pretty good. And with some engine tweaks, even better. That is why you can tweak the engine...to have your leagues perform the way you want.

My big point, though, was that if you are looking for a perfect AI you won't find one. I think the best way to get the AI improved is for people to note specific instances of what needs to be fixed/tweaked, keeping in mind that no settings will make everyone happy (but that is why the customization in this game is really useful).

I would agree that some things are more important then others...but if you asked 10 people on these boards the #1 thing they wanted for the next version you would get somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-10 different answers. So its not as easy as most people think to make that kind of design decision (not to mention how much work it would be to actually make the change).

Also.....I used to not be interested in historically simming at all, but I gave it a try with version 9....one of my favorite things now! So sometimes you don't know you wanted something until you have it!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Mattymo

I would say that, across the board, probably half of OOTP subscribers are MLB simmers. Remember that probably 5% of OOTP users post on these boards and probably 90% are from the United States.

Markus wants to make as much $$ is possible (no I'm not saying that his only priority, or even his main priority) so he's going to market it towards the masses. The masses don't want the quirky things some people on these boards want.

Nice to see that someone gets it. The number of people who want these "quirky things" (good phrase there) are a tiny, insignificant minority. If the game is going to succeed - especially now that it is being mass marketed via Steam Powered Games - then it is going to need mass market appeal, and in baseball that is spelled M-L-B.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by bababui

A female only league with some 'custom' pics? Could it get any better??

Leave it you to find the dirty part, Baba!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by jasonntn

I would have to agree with others that the basic simulation of MLB-like baseball should be the priority for current developement...without perfecting the simulation first everything else becomes irrelevant.

Well put.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Not gonna say its a dumb idea but if Markus had a list of requested ideas and features about the size "War & Peace", then this would be right before the end.

I'll say it: it's a dumb idea.