The World of Football/Soccer.

[ukhotstove]

The United team that played and lost against Everton in the FA Cup and the ammonut of games they played in that season, hardly a reserve team was it and they brought on Evra, Scholes and Berbatov in which Evra and Berbatov replaced the two players with the least games under their belts in Fabio de Silva and Macheda.

Foster 10
R D Silva 27
Ferdinand 41
Vidic 53
F D Silva 2
Welbeck 13
Gibson 14
Anderson 36
Park 39
Tevez 48
Macheda 5

[mlyons]

Actually, I read your whole post, thank you, and I thought I addressed everything you brought up.

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Do you ever actually read what people post, I have MULTIPLE problems with Wolves fielding their reserves, (1) People had paid good money thinking they were going to watch their 1st team play, which they didn't

I agree, that was a problem, and McCarthy should have been more responsible to his team's supporters and announced his intentions earlier. I believe I stated that quite clearly in my post.

(2) Wolves 1st team is only good enough to beat United 9 times out of 10 so their reserves had no chance

That's being harsh on Wolves' backups. This wasn't like they were throwing untested 16-year-olds into the fray. If you actually look at the lineup they fielded against Manchester United, all of those players were either established top-level players or played a big part in Wolverhampton's promotion campaign the previous season, with the only exception being George Friend. If McCarthy had fielded that lineup on the first day of the season, no one would have blinked an eye.

(3) The way United are playing at the moment Wolves could actually have got a draw or maybe even have beat them

Not with the players that had just run themselves to death beating Spurs three days earlier, I don't think.

(4) It opens the door open to all kinds of accusations on throwing a game which truth be known McCarthy did, he threw the game and should imo be fined/suspended or even banned. Again your point about United would hold water but for the fact they only lost on penalties by the way 3,000 Wolves fans went to the game.

Well, that's just bull****. Every single player he fielded is a Premier League player, and every single one of them gave their all trying to get a result. Frankly, the idea that he was trying to lose that game (which is much different from the idea that he was trying to maximize the number of points he took from his two upcoming matches) is insulting.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

The United team that played and lost against Everton in the FA Cup and the ammonut of games they played in that season, hardly a reserve team was it and they brought on Evra, Scholes and Berbatov in which Evra and Berbatov replaced the two players with the least games under their belts in Fabio de Silva and Macheda.

Foster 10
R D Silva 27
Ferdinand 41
Vidic 53
F D Silva 2
Welbeck 13
Gibson 14
Anderson 36
Park 39
Tevez 48
Macheda 5

Well, that's just a bit disingenuous. First off, United does a lot more rotation than Wolves does, so their backups are going to see a lot more playing time, naturally, which is why it's so strange that people get upset at the few times small clubs actually try to rotate their players to keep them fresh. Secondly, you're looking at a club at the tail end of a very long campaign, so obviously the raw numbers are going to be inflated. Let's compare that lineup to Wolves' based on percentage of the team's overall matches played.

Foster: 15%
R Da Silva: 41%
Ferdinand: 62%
Vidic: 80%
F Da Silva: 3%
Danny Welbeck: 20%
Gibson: 21%
Anderson: 55%
Park: 49%
Tevez: 73%
Macheda: 8%

Wolves:
Hahnemann: 21% (more than Foster)
Zubar: 26% (more than Rafael)
Mancienne: 68% (more than Ferdinand)
Elokobi: 56% (less than Vidic)
Hill: 16% (more than Fabio)
Surman: 26% (more than Welbeck)
Castillo: 47% (more than Gibson)
Foley: 26% (less than Anderson)
Friend: 5% (less than Park)
Halford: 68% (less than Tevez)
Maierhofer: 42% (more than Macheda)

If you don't have a problems with Manchester United's lineup that day, I don't see how you can have a problem with Wolverhampton's. Unless, of course, you don't think small clubs should have the same freedom to choose their lineups that the big clubs do.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Well, that's just bull****. Every single player he fielded is a Premier League player, and every single one of them gave their all trying to get a result. Frankly, the idea that he was trying to lose that game (which is much different from the idea that he was trying to maximize the number of points he took from his two upcoming matches) is insulting.

Every player is a premiership player ? well duh he's bound to be if he's on the books of a premiership team. Below is the team that played United and the premiership games he's played in and in brackets the premiership games he's started oh by the way a prize who can guess which players are usually taken off in games they start, psst it's Mancienne, Halford and Castillo. In fact Mancienne as only finished 8 games most of them being at the start of the season, Halford as only started and finished 5 with Castillo only finishing 2 games.

Hahnemann 3 (3)
Foley 3 (2)
Elokobi 8 (7)
Mancienne 12 (9)
Hill 1 (1)
Zubar 3 (3)
Halford 12 (11)
Surman 3 (1)
Castillo 7 (6)
Friend 0 (0)
Maierhofer 7 (0)

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Well, that's just a bit disingenuous. First off, United does a lot more rotation than Wolves does, so their backups are going to see a lot more playing time, naturally, which is why it's so strange that people get upset at the few times small clubs actually try to rotate their players to keep them fresh. Secondly, you're looking at a club at the tail end of a very long campaign, so obviously the raw numbers are going to be inflated. Let's compare that lineup to Wolves' based on percentage of the team's overall matches played.

Foster: 15%
R Da Silva: 41%
Ferdinand: 62%
Vidic: 80%
F Da Silva: 3%
Danny Welbeck: 20%
Gibson: 21%
Anderson: 55%
Park: 49%
Tevez: 73%
Macheda: 8%

Wolves:
Hahnemann: 21% (more than Foster)
Zubar: 26% (more than Rafael)
Mancienne: 68% (more than Ferdinand)
Elokobi: 56% (less than Vidic)
Hill: 16% (more than Fabio)
Surman: 26% (more than Welbeck)
Castillo: 47% (more than Gibson)
Foley: 26% (less than Anderson)
Friend: 5% (less than Park)
Halford: 68% (less than Tevez)
Maierhofer: 42% (more than Macheda)

If you don't have a problems with Manchester United's lineup that day, I don't see how you can have a problem with Wolverhampton's. Unless, of course, you don't think small clubs should have the same freedom to choose their lineups that the big clubs do.

Lets have a look at your % at the end of the season and your including the games they've played in, not sure if you've taken notice but it was Friend's debut against United so his % before the game was errr 0% and Maierhofer had been a sub in every game before hand were as Macheda had started over half of the games he had been involved in.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Lets have a look at your % at the end of the season and your including the games they've played in, not sure if you've taken notice but it was Friend's debut against United so his % before the game was errr 0% and Maierhofer had been a sub in every game before hand were as Macheda had started over half of the games he had been involved in.

Over half? So three, then. Three out of sixty-six matches played. Oooh.

And I'm pretty sure that not only were you including the FA Cup semifinal in your total, but matches they played in afterwards.

Honestly, I just don't get how you can condemn Wolves for resting players in a midweek fixture after a very tough game when they have a vital six-pointer coming up, but still think it's acceptable for a big club to throw away the FA Cup semi-final. Let's put it in a little more personal terms. How would you feel if there were an uproar every time Wigan rested a player? Do you think they have very many outfield players who are capable of playing at their best for three matches in a seven day stretch without a rest?

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Over half? So three, then. Three out of sixty-six matches played. Oooh.

And I'm pretty sure that not only were you including the FA Cup semifinal in your total, but matches they played in afterwards.

Honestly, I just don't get how you can condemn Wolves for resting players in a midweek fixture after a very tough game when they have a vital six-pointer coming up, but still think it's acceptable for a big club to throw away the FA Cup semi-final. Let's put it in a little more personal terms. How would you feel if there were an uproar every time Wigan rested a player? Do you think they have very many outfield players who are capable of playing at their best for three matches in a seven day stretch without a rest?

Holy **** they just didnt rest 1 or 2 players they rested a full team, when the likes of Man Utd or Arsenal do it their putting a team out that in all honesty could beat the team they are playing, Wolves first team struggle against the better teams so how the hell do you think their reserves go on ? By the way it wasn't 3 games in 7 days it was 3 games in 9 days, at the end of the day the job of a manager is to put a team out who he feels can beat the opposition, did McCarthy do that ? Answer NO. So in that aspect he took a dive.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

[A]t the end of the day the job of a manager is to put a team out who he feels can beat the opposition, did McCarthy do that ? Answer NO. So in that aspect he took a dive.

No, the job of the manager is to do the best he can in all competitions. Concentrating on single matches without paying any attention to how they affect the long haul of the season is incredibly short-sighted, and any manager who did that would be doomed to utter failure. Now, I think there is a reasonable discussion to be had about whether or not McCarthy's strategy was the right one to maximize the number of points Wolverhampton would get from this stretch of matches (I personally feel that ten changes might have been a little excessive), but that doesn't seem to be a discussion you're interested in having.

What you're doing is questioning the right of a club to field the lineup that the manager feels is most appropriate to a given match, taking into account the overall context of the season. What are you advocating to prevent something like this from happening again, if it bothers you so much? Should all managers have to submit a lineup to the FA forty-eight hours before a match for approval? What about tactics? Should the FA discipline managers of small clubs if they're too attacking against big clubs and lose by more than three goals?

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

(I personally feel that ten changes might have been a little excessive), but that doesn't seem to be a discussion you're interested in having.

That's been my whole point, the ammount of changes he made. I have no problem him changing one or two players, I do have a problem him sending what was pretty much a full reserve team out. He not only gave United the game he also put imense pressure on his team to beat Burnley today and even avoid relegation, imo McCarthy as proved he's a decent championship manager but when the games become important aka Ireland (world cup) and Sunderland in the premiership he can't handle it.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

That's been my whole point, the ammount of changes he made. I have no problem him changing one or two players, I do have a problem him sending what was pretty much a full reserve team out. He not only gave United the game he also put imense pressure on his team to beat Burnley today and even avoid relegation, imo McCarthy as proved he's a decent championship manager but when the games become important aka Ireland (world cup) and Sunderland in the premiership he can't handle it.

My only quibble with that is that it wasn't a full first team he had out against Spurs, either. Halford, Elokobi, Mancienne, and Castillo could all be considered first team choices for Wolves. Zubar, too, although he's missed a lot of time due to injury. It sounds a lot more terrible to just say he changed out all of his outfield players, but he wasn't really fielding ten backups.

[ukhotstove]

Whats the take on Stuart Holden ? Reports are that Blackburn are interested in signing him on a 4 year contract, have to say I know nothing about him apart frm he plays for Houston.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

My only quibble with that is that it wasn't a full first team he had out against Spurs, either. Halford, Elokobi, Mancienne, and Castillo could all be considered first team choices for Wolves. Zubar, too, although he's missed a lot of time due to injury. It sounds a lot more terrible to just say he changed out all of his outfield players, but he wasn't really fielding ten backups.

I don't have a problem with the players, he could have sent the under 10's out and they would have tried their best. My problem is with McCarthy and yes some may say he's a genious because they won at the weekend and they may go on and stay up but end of the day he sent a team out knowing that they were certain to lose and to me that just stinks.

[bababui]

Wigan has to be the wussiest place on earth. Todays game was cancelled because it was too cold and icy for the fans. Ive never heard this excuse before. The field has undersoil heating so the match should have been played. Never heard of a hockey game called for this pathetic reason.

[ukhotstove]

The game wasn't called off because of it being "too cold for the fans", it was actually called off due to the travelling conditions. Having travelled to and from work the last couple of days it didn't surprise me that it was called off, a journey that usually takes me 10 minutes and even though I travel at a time that there are very few cars on the road as the last couple of days taken me 30 minutes because of the conditions.

A great man once said 'Some people believe football is a matter of life and death.

'Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I'm very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.'

Trust me great as he was, he's wrong on this point.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Whats the take on Stuart Holden ? Reports are that Blackburn are interested in signing him on a 4 year contract, have to say I know nothing about him apart frm he plays for Houston.

Probably not good enough for a Premier League team unless their system suits him well, which I don't think Blackburn's does. He's not a very physical player, but he's got decent technique and pace. He can play central midfield or out on the right.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by bababui

Wigan has to be the wussiest place on earth. Todays game was cancelled because it was too cold and icy for the fans. Ive never heard this excuse before. The field has undersoil heating so the match should have been played. Never heard of a hockey game called for this pathetic reason.

It was called b/c of road conditions outside the stadium and in the area. I see nothing 'wussy' about caring for the public's wellbeing.

[bababui]

Still a weak excuse. How do people leave the house in central Canada where the conditions are much more extreme? Everyone just had to slow down a little.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by bababui

Still a weak excuse. How do people leave the house in central Canada where the conditions are much more extreme? Everyone just had to slow down a little.

This is about what's norm. Seattle was paralyzed last year by mild snow, simply because the city rarely sees snow that much and wasn't prepared for it.

Look at the weather guidelines, and you'll see how it can be very different everywhere.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by bababui

Still a weak excuse. How do people leave the house in central Canada where the conditions are much more extreme? Everyone just had to slow down a little.

So I guess the NFL delaying two start times yesterday was lame as well?

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Still a weak excuse. How do people leave the house in central Canada where the conditions are much more extreme? Everyone just had to slow down a little.

How is it a weak excuse ? Lets kill or injure a few people just so somebody can kick a football around a field, also I'm sure Canada has a far better system in place to cope with snow seeing they get tons of the stuff every year where in Wigan it's snowed about a half dozen times in about the last five years maybe even more years come to think of it.