The 2023 NFL Season Thread

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It does not amaze me that people are still 'racist-y' enough to not see the embedded racism in a comment like that. It does amaze me that people this 'racist-y' still rise to the level of having a voice of any note in the media.

When I was 18ish, I didn't think Doug Williams seemed 'quarterbacky' and was genuinely surprised when he was going to Disneyworld. Why? Because I was young, dumb, and too affected by the culture around me; and Doug was black. I am not particularly sensitive to race and justice but even I have learned/grown and cringe when looking back at things like how I viewed Doug Williams when I was 18 years old (I am 58 now). What the f*** is wrong with this world?

I'll be totally honest, When I clicked on the link to what she said it did not strike me as anything peculiar. There must be some history to this I'm missing. To me it just sounded like she preferred the traditional quarterback.

It would be nice to know what she said back several weeks ago when Dak Prescott was the favorite to be MVP.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

That is your opinion. But it is not mine. I may not automatically accept the word from an ex-athlete/coach, but it carries more weight w/me. I don't mind non-jocks as hosts or reporters. But as evaluators, I want someone who has been in the business.

And back to this lady, I wonder what makes Run CMC "running backy" to her? He ain't the traditional RB himself. Seems like we ain't so worried about what he looks like.

Bottom line is none of these guys are experts. Especially those on sports talk radio. They talk because it's their job to watch games. Their opinion on what the see I take with a grain of salt.

You can weigh a players opinion more, it makes sense. But some of these guys are out in left field too. Ever hear Ron Jaworski when he was doing draft coverage? His opinion on QBs coming out of college was awful. Bordering on embarrassing he was so wrong.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Bottom line is none of these guys are experts. Especially those on sports talk radio. They talk because it's their job to watch games. Their opinion on what the see I take with a grain of salt.

You can weigh a players opinion more, it makes sense. But some of these guys are out in left field too. Ever hear Ron Jaworski when he was doing draft coverage? His opinion on QBs coming out of college was awful. Bordering on embarrassing he was so wrong.

All good points. And let's face it: The days - if there ever were any - of deep, thoughtful analysis & discussion on sports talk radio are long gone. I mean you get segments here and there of some good, pithy & sometimes expert discussion, but if you're tuning in to sports talk radio, you're pretty much know you're going to get a fair amount of bombast.

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I'll be totally honest, When I clicked on the link to what she said it did not strike me as anything peculiar. There must be some history to this I'm missing. To me it just sounded like she preferred the traditional quarterback.

It would be nice to know what she said back several weeks ago when Dak Prescott was the favorite to be MVP.

Totally. If she were trashing on Dak, too, (and/or Hurts, back when the Eagles were the hot team earlier this year), and giving her kudos to Purdy and Lawrence then that might lend credibility to the popular media narrative. But heck, she's a female POC, and appears to be very young, meaning her perspective is much more likely to be one of sports ignorance rather than racial animus/ignorance.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It does not amaze me that people are still 'racist-y' enough to not see the embedded racism in a comment like that. It does amaze me that people this 'racist-y' still rise to the level of having a voice of any note in the media.

When I was 18ish, I didn't think Doug Williams seemed 'quarterbacky' and was genuinely surprised when he was going to Disneyworld. Why? Because I was young, dumb, and too affected by the culture around me; and Doug was black. I am not particularly sensitive to race and justice but even I have learned/grown and cringe when looking back at things like how I viewed Doug Williams when I was 18 years old (I am 58 now). What the f*** is wrong with this world?

The problem is most people aren't humble enough like you to admit a fault & see a need to change.

All of us, and I include myself, ALL OF US have biases & prejudices that lie deep w/in the subconscious. Those some times leak from the subconscious to our brain. And if we are the type to speak w/o thinking, those thoughts becomes racist words. Then our pride doesn't allow us to admit our weakness when we are called out on it. Those that are less likely to speak in dog whistles & make choices based on prejudice are those of us who admit they have a problem & are thus aware enough to question our initial thoughts.

"Do I like Lamar for MVP cause he is a black QB?" "Do I like CMC for MVP cause he is a white RB?" "Is my dismissal of either tainted by my favoring those of my race?"

Giving 2nd thoughts to our opinions allow us to dig deeper on the reasons for our choices and makes sure we don't let color color our opinions.

I admire you for being humble enough to admit your vulnerability and decent enough to make a change.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Bottom line is none of these guys are experts. Especially those on sports talk radio. They talk because it's their job to watch games. Their opinion on what the see I take with a grain of salt.

Agreed. That's why I don't listen to them. I can't stand SportsCenter anymore because they give less highlights and more opinions & hot takes. Look on their homepage & you will see just as many clips from their opinion shows as you do of actual game footage.

Here's the major problem: Most sports fans aren't smart enough like me to turn the blowhards off. And they allow themselves to be manipulated into thinking like them instead of thinking for themselves. And I know that because I read from posters up here and other places the same uninformed, unreasoning thoughts that get shouted on TV & the radio. They haven't given a millimeter of energy into researching & thinking out the topic themselves. They are just repeating the hot take.

And here is the scary part: The same is happening right now in news & political radio, which is one of the reasons why nobody can get along right now. A bunch of listeners having their ears tickled who never give a second to wonder if what they just heard is the equivalent of cow manure for the ears.

You can weigh a players opinion more, it makes sense. But some of these guys are out in left field too. Ever hear Ron Jaworski when he was doing draft coverage? His opinion on QBs coming out of college was awful. Bordering on embarrassing he was so wrong.

That's obvious. If every employee in sports knew what they were talking about none of the would ever have gotten fired. But I will still give them an initial benefit of the doubt in the possibility that they are speaking from experience. The others are speaking from guesswork & hearsay. The same stuff you and I base our opinions from. They are nothing more than you and I w/megaphones. If I was on ESPN, would you ever take what I said on air as encyclopedic knowledge? Then why would we take Mike Greenburgs & Bob Costas' words as such? They know what we know.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Agreed. That's why I don't listen to them. I can't stand SportsCenter anymore because they give less highlights and more opinions & hot takes. Look on their homepage & you will see just as many clips from their opinion shows as you do of actual game footage.

Here's the major problem: Most sports fans aren't smart enough like me to turn the blowhards off. And they allow themselves to be manipulated into thinking like them instead of thinking for themselves. And I know that because I read from posters up here and other places the same uninformed, unreasoning thoughts that get shouted on TV & the radio. They haven't given a millimeter of energy into researching & thinking out the topic themselves. They are just repeating the hot take.

And here is the scary part: The same is happening right now in news & political radio, which is one of the reasons why nobody can get along right now. A bunch of listeners having their ears tickled who never give a second to wonder if what they just heard is the equivalent of cow manure for the ears.

That's obvious. If every employee in sports knew what they were talking about none of the would ever have gotten fired. But I will still give them an initial benefit of the doubt in the possibility that they are speaking from experience. The others are speaking from guesswork & hearsay. The same stuff you and I base our opinions from. They are nothing more than you and I w/megaphones. If I was on ESPN, would you ever take what I said on air as encyclopedic knowledge? Then why would we take Mike Greenburgs & Bob Costas' words as such? They know what we know.

I can't tell you how long it has been since I watched ESPN for anything but football games. NFL Network is a lot like that too now.

It's more about sensationalism. Especially daytime radio. They are not experts. Like you said, more like me and you talking in a bar, loudly.

[Cobra Mgr]

As long as Buffalo has to lean on Josh Allen's thinking process they will never win a SB.

[Syd Thrift]

Zach vs CMC or whatever aside, all this crap about “only former players should evaluate” is insanity. John Clayton was great at his job, as was Chris Wesseling. I’m a big fan of Gregg Rosenthal’s insight. Mina Kimes does a great job with in depth, nerdy analysis. For that matter, Aaron Schatz has been great with it for years. Pablo Torres approaches sports like an investigative journalist and does a damn fine job of it. Max Kellerman knows more about boxing than any 2 people on this board put together. Colleen Wolfe does great too.

I mean this is a message board dedicated to a way of looking at baseball that practically didn’t exist before non-player Bill James wrote a series of publications in the 70s and 80s that detailed how sometimes baseball managers and GMs don’t seem to know what they’re doing, and then non-players Voros McCracken, Tom Tango, and a whole assortment of non-players have expanded on it since then until finally nowadays the people who “actually played the game” listen to the stat nerds. Even if they didn’t, why are you even here?

[Cobra Mgr]

I'm here because I'm a sports fan who also loves history. I read. I research. I ask questions. I meditate on what I learned. I form opinions. I talk about it with other who are like me.

JUST LIKE KELLERMAN, KIMES, ROSENTHAL & ALL OTHER REPORTERS.

They were able to make careers out of their niche. Congratulations.

But they ain't getting hired to coach or be GM's are they? Because no one thinks they have the ability to run a team, teach a team or lead a team. Kiper & McShay are very knowledgeable about the NFL draft, the process & the prospects. But they aren't asked to run any draft rooms. Cause they aren't experts like they are made out to be. They aren't evaluators. They research & ask questions of real evaluators & experts, meditate on it, compare their notes & then report on it.

The same thing we all do on a much smaller scale.

They are REPORTERS. Not experts. They can report what they've learned. They can relate what they've heard. But they should not be presenting themselves as critics & experts of what goes on on the field. They haven't been there & done that.

[Cobra Mgr]

Oddities from the Panthers' dumpster fire............They were 0-10 in games they scored an offensive TD. They were 0-12 in which they scored a TD. They were 2-3 in games in which they didn't score a TD...........They are the 1st team since 1991 to not have a single snap in the 4th w/the lead.

[Cobra Mgr]

Here's your Black Monday update..........

Falcons canned Arthur Smith last night............

Ron Rivera no longer in command of the Commanders.............

Carolina finishes office cleaning by firing GM Scott Fitterer..............

G-Men fire OL coach...........

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

My predictions for the year

Phil   13-4          Buf   13-4
Dal    11-6          Mia   10-7
NYG    10-7          NYJ    9-8
Wash    8-9          NE     4-13

GB     11-6          Pitt  12-5
DET    10-7          Balt  12-5
Chi     8-9          Cin   12-5
Minn    6-11         Clev   9-8 

NO      8-9          Jx    10-7
Car     6-11         Ten   10-7
Atl     6-11         Ind    6-11
TB      3-14         Hou    4-13

SF     14-3          KC    14-3
Sea     7-10         Den    9-8
LA      3-14         LAC    6-11
Ariz    2-15         LV     5-12

WC

Dal over NO        Cincy over Jax
NYG over GB        Balt over Pitt
Phil over Det      Buff over Mia

Div Rd

SF over NYG        KC over Balt
Phil over Dal      Cincy over Buff

Conf Fin

Phil over SF       Cincy over KC

SB

Phil over Cincy

So if you bet opposite this, you ought to make a killing in Vegas.

So who got rich off of my picks?

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Zach vs CMC or whatever aside, all this crap about “only former players should evaluate” is insanity. John Clayton was great at his job, as was Chris Wesseling. I’m a big fan of Gregg Rosenthal’s insight. Mina Kimes does a great job with in depth, nerdy analysis. For that matter, Aaron Schatz has been great with it for years. Pablo Torres approaches sports like an investigative journalist and does a damn fine job of it. Max Kellerman knows more about boxing than any 2 people on this board put together. Colleen Wolfe does great too.

I mean this is a message board dedicated to a way of looking at baseball that practically didn’t exist before non-player Bill James wrote a series of publications in the 70s and 80s that detailed how sometimes baseball managers and GMs don’t seem to know what they’re doing, and then non-players Voros McCracken, Tom Tango, and a whole assortment of non-players have expanded on it since then until finally nowadays the people who “actually played the game” listen to the stat nerds. Even if they didn’t, why are you even here?

I don't disagree with you. I just don't think anyone is an expert. Or very few. I can give you an example from recent history that can tell you a lot.

Deflategate. Anyone that came out and said the Patriots cheated and had a competitive advantage due to the air pressure in the ball had one of two reasons. They hated Brady and the Patriots. Or they never played a down of football at any level above peewee. The beauty of it is, they won't know those that played the game know that's crap. They'll just give their ignorant opinions. Those that played the game know the reality.

All QBs scuff the ball to their liking before games. This was just an extension of that. Brady was more comfortable with the ball at that level. I can remember my playing days. You can use any ball you want. You can even use the nerf ball with the fin on the back, if we're better than you, you're still getting your butts kicked.

This is a good example of opinions as a result of a lack of experience.

[pilight]

It's just football, not rocket science.

I recall plenty of former players, ever some former QBs, who said Brady and the Patriots cheated and got a competitive advantage from improperly inflated balls.

[thehef]

As a Miami Dolphin fan, I feel that in McDaniel they have a great coach (from offensive perspective anyway), and some very talented players, especially on offense. It's that system and those talented players that are making an ordinary-at-best quarterback put up some nice numbers. My fear, though, is by the time the front office comes to the same conclusion that I've had since before the 2020 draft - that Tua is no better than a second-string QB - years will have been wasted... Hill, Waddle, Mostert, Achane, and others will be three or so years older, and McDaniel will probably be fired for not being able to get out of the Wild Card round...

The bottom line is that there are probably 100 QB's floating around between the NFL and the USFXL (or whatever it's now called) who can do what Tua does:

1) Quick hits to wide open, primary-target receivers who are explosive.
2) Extremely poor decisions when #1 doesn't work out.

I have a hard time thinking of a single starting QB (and plenty of backups) who I wouldn't rather have taking first-string snaps in Miami than Tua.

My buddy, who like me is a long-suffering fan of his team, said he'd much rather have Tua than anything the 'Skins/Commies have had post-Kirk Cousins. I told him that I'd much prefer Howell. Or Heinicke. Even Wentz. And that I'd even take Haskins, even though I'm pretty sure that he's still dead!

It'll never happen, but this offseason would be the perfect time to do what the Rams did prior to the 2021 season: Trade their young, semi-highly-regarded QB (Goff) for a solid veteran (Stafford) who's been languishing somewhere... Cousins, Carr, R Wilson, Tannehill reunion... I'd take any of those guys in a heartbeat over Tua The Terrible.

Sorry, but I'm probably going to continue ranting about Tua until he's no longer Miami's starting QB. I suspect that the ranting will, unfortunately, continue for quite some time...

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by pilight

It's just football, not rocket science.

I recall plenty of former players, ever some former QBs, who said Brady and the Patriots cheated and got a competitive advantage from improperly inflated balls.

Yeah, same. ISTR Sean Salisbury, who I definitely remember playing in the NFL, being one of those guys at the time.

I *am* a little bit OK with a little bit of the "if you didn't play..." attitude, specifically when it comes to guys talking about "heart" or "the will to win" or "intangibles". If you're some 5'6" schlub who can't be arsed to get off the couch, don't go around telling me that like Brady is better than Dak because he has the "will to win". That said, one of the big reasons why I prefer the "stat nerd" variety of sports comentators - like Mina Kimes and Gregg Rosenthal for two - is that they just straight up don't use those arguments. Players have abilities and those abilities have limits. For some guys those limits are higher than for others but there's no point in talking about "heart" or whatever; at the end of the day it's what the players do, not what you think is going on inside of their heads, that counts.

IIRC that's specifically what got Barkley going on the "living in their mothers' basement" comment: some idiot was denigrating a professional NBA player for not having the "guts" or whatever. By the time you've reached that level of play, you are mentally pretty damn tough, one way or the other. Even if you're big and clumsy like Javale McGee, you were still a stud at lower levels of play and you're only big and clumsy relative to other NBA players. And people at home, you're just not on their level at any point, and pretending that any amount of that ability comes from willpower and not a ton of talent mixed with practice really makes you look dumb.

[Syd Thrift]

dola,

My three least favorite NFL-related comments:

1. "<guy> has no heart!!!" (spoken by someone who's football experience was watching other guys play in high school)

2. "STOP RUNNING THE PREVENT GOSH" (almost always spoken when defense are running anything but the prevent defense, which nowadays is basically a last-play-of-the-game D; even in the sense that it's supposedly a colloquialism for any soft zone, a. it's not, and b. when you see a team making 30 yard chunk plays late in the game, that's the defense failing, not a bad playcall (well, unless it's Gregg Williams and he's running all-out blitzes))

3. "WHY IS <defensive lineman> IN PAAAAASS COOOOOVERAGE????" (look man, I don't know what to tell you... the zone blitz has been in the league for like 25 years and even if you play Madden you'll have seen it in there since the early 2000s - you also won't see teams running it very much; it's just a different look you give to mess up reads)

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by thehef

As a Miami Dolphin fan, I feel that in McDaniel they have a great coach (from offensive perspective anyway), and some very talented players, especially on offense. It's that system and those talented players that are making an ordinary-at-best quarterback put up some nice numbers. My fear, though, is by the time the front office comes to the same conclusion that I've had since before the 2020 draft - that Tua is no better than a second-string QB - years will have been wasted... Hill, Waddle, Mostert, Achane, and others will be three or so years older, and McDaniel will probably be fired for not being able to get out of the Wild Card round...

The bottom line is that there are probably 100 QB's floating around between the NFL and the USFXL (or whatever it's now called) who can do what Tua does:

1) Quick hits to wide open, primary-target receivers who are explosive.
2) Extremely poor decisions when #1 doesn't work out.

I have a hard time thinking of a single starting QB (and plenty of backups) who I wouldn't rather have taking first-string snaps in Miami than Tua.

My buddy, who like me is a long-suffering fan of his team, said he'd much rather have Tua than anything the 'Skins/Commies have had post-Kirk Cousins. I told him that I'd much prefer Howell. Or Heinicke. Even Wentz. And that I'd even take Haskins, even though I'm pretty sure that he's still dead!

It'll never happen, but this offseason would be the perfect time to do what the Rams did prior to the 2021 season: Trade their young, semi-highly-regarded QB (Goff) for a solid veteran (Stafford) who's been languishing somewhere... Cousins, Carr, R Wilson, Tannehill reunion... I'd take any of those guys in a heartbeat over Tua The Terrible.

Sorry, but I'm probably going to continue ranting about Tua until he's no longer Miami's starting QB. I suspect that the ranting will, unfortunately, continue for quite some time...

I think Tua is a bit better than you give him credit for, but it's hard to know for sure. Weapons on offense play such a big role in QB success. My Cowboys best WR, Lamb, would be WR3 on the Dolphins. I know Waddle doesn't have they yards Lamb has, but that's because Tyreek Hill is grabbing them all up.

When Miami has to pay Waddle, that's when you're going to move on from Hill. That's when you'll see Tua struggle. Jalen Hurts flaws in Philly were also masked. Masked by a heavy RPO and a one read passing scheme. Once they deviated from that, he struggles. He has struggled all year, but they still managed 10-1. Then the wheels fell off.

[Cobra Mgr]

Titans fire Vrabel.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Titans fire Vrabel.

Someone will pick up a good coach. I do not follow the sport super close. But every story I read about him is that players will run through a wall for him.
And he is only 48 so he has a lot of coaching years left assuming he still wants to pursue it.